Future of the Turtles

[Allio]

Reminds me of the manga versions of the anime turtles.

[CyberCubed]

Definitely looks like a cross between the original cartoon and Archie series in terms of art. I don't know if it means anything though.

[IndigoErth]

More than one official account posting it... hmmm. That image may be nothing, but it's strange that it's uncredited, giving it a teaser vibe.

May be nothing and I may be far off, but it sparked a memory of seeing this tweet pointed out elsewhere online just recently.

Ash Paulsen Rainbow flag @AshPaulsen · Mar 16
I just got to stand in as Leo for a TMNT script read with @LeftFieldBarry, Townsend Coleman, and my dad @yakkopinky and they said I did well and OH MY GOD Loudly crying faceExploding headSmiling face with open mouth and smiling eyes

(Can't say what it's for yet but don't worry, you'll of course hear the amazing @CamClarkeVoices in the real thing!)

10:32 PM · Mar 16, 2021·Twitter Web App

From back in March, but it was something and still unknown? In comments he says it's not for Shredder's Revenge, and don't need a paid subscription, so anything Netflix is out.

What I'd seen had people speculating about a possible tv special. edit: Would be funny if that's what the re-release of the toys is about.

[Leo656]

I don't feel like doing clips of multiple quotes so I'll just say upfront that some of this is in reply to Aqua and some of it is just general statements.

As far as stuff like the NECA figures and the Injustice DLC, I agree those things are good, which is why I made it a point to mention that I not only think stuff like that will always happen, but should, and that that's probably where the brand should stay. It's like Dick Tracy or Popeye or Flash Gordon - super-popular once upon a time, but now only exists in the rear-view mirror with the occasional "Remember This?" bone thrown to the people who still care about it.

Nobody is even bothering trying to make NEW things with those properties, like movies or shows or whatever, nor should they. They'd be terrible when run through a modern lens, anyway. The people who control those properties understand that there's no point trying to create new content for a new audience that's way too young or out of the loop to appreciate those things properly. So instead, it's all "throwback" stuff. An action figure here, a Collected Edition of old strips there, and honestly, that's plenty. And that's where things like TMNT arguably belong now. The abundance of New Stuff is lousy, and I'm somewhat clairvoyant so I can't ever see another good movie or TV show coming out. Not in my lifetime, and probably not after that either.

So I definitely don't think they should NOT do stuff like the NECA toys or the Injustice DLC, or that little DLC game that's coming out. But I do think that's as ambitious as they should get with this brand. They probably won't ever even attempt a "real" TMNT game again, and since Mutants in Manhattan under-performed despite being perfectly fine, that's probably for the best, too. It's not like a "real" developer even wants the brand, anyway; they don't see any money in it.

And that's really the crux of it. The brand is owned by people with no love for the property past how much they can make off of it, and quality is of no concern. And I'd rather just see them stop trying to mess with it instead of seeing a never-ending series of diminishing returns. A movie in the vein of the 1990 movie is an impossibility, for example; we'll never see anything like that again, ever, and I don't want to see another bunch of Bay-style or Rogen-style reboots just to keep toys on the shelves. One could argue that the brand lost any remaining semblance of its "virginity" ages ago, but it's noticeably worse now that's it's 100% "just" a commodity. The shows and movies are terrible, will always be terrible, and a few cool toys and a cameo in a video game don't come close to wiping off the stink of those other things. So I'd prefer they stop trying to make those Other Things.

There's a mindset - one which I partly subscribe to; not with everything, but selectively - that things should end before they turn sour. It's like the Denis Leary Elvis rant - "Wouldn't it be great to remember Elvis thin, with that big head of hair and that gold lame' suit? But that's not how you remember Elvis. You KNOW how you remember Elvis." Now, I don't agree with Leary's (most likely joking) statement that "Someone should've just walked up behind Elvis back in 1957 and shot him in the head so we could all remember him in a good way and none of the later stuff ever happened", but I get his point. Some of the stuff towards the end did go a long way towards erasing or at least diminishing his earlier legacy in people's minds.

And that's all TMNT is now, or ever will be again. Fat Vegas-Era Elvis, with the occasional Greatest Hits record to remind you of the good old days. It's sad, and it's painful.

Basically, everything ends, and even though that can be sad there's something to be said for knowing when to call it a day. You never want to overstay your welcome at the party, or else you will absolutely embarrass yourself. Nobody will remember the awesome joke you told around 11pm that slayed the entire room, but they WILL remember you with the lampshade on your head, pissing in the potted plant at 4am. You never want THAT to be what people remember you for, but that's inevitably what happens when you stick around too long.

It's just nice when things stop before they turn sour. Endings are tough, but they're inevitable. And there's wisdom in knowing when enough is enough. Those hypothetical "new fans" can go pretend to care about something else, it's fine. The "fans" who've gotten into TMNT after the Nick sale haven't stuck around long-term anyway, so if TMNT went away tomorrow those people wouldn't care much, anyway. It's not some sort of cultural touchstone for those folks the way it was for us back in the day, it's completely different. Younger people nowadays simply aren't capable of becoming emotionally invested in their entertainment the way my generation did; everything is disposable and forgettable to those people. And seeing TMNT become something as disposable as a paper cup is frankly more depressing to me than watching it go away completely would be.

Some people wish Metallica quit making music after the Black Album, so Load and Reload and St. Anger never happened. Now, I don't agree with those people, but I absolutely get their point and I respect their opinion. There's definitely some wisdom in that. Now, I do get your point about other things, how sometimes you still get something good in between all the junk - as bad as St. Anger was, after that we got Death Magnetic, so it all sort of evened out, eventually - but to a lot of people, it still isn't worth it. I get it. On some things, it's better to just stop while you're ahead.

The vibe I get from some people with regard to TMNT - not all, but some - is simply fear. Fear of getting older, fear of "losing" something they care a lot about, lots of things all mixed together. "Losing" this cherished childhood thing is an unavoidable sign that time has passed, we're getting older, life isn't simple anymore, etc. etc. etc. And endings of any kind, big or small, are a reminder of our own mortality. On some level, it isn't even about TMNT specifically; people want it to stay around because they don't want to lose Yet Another Thing to the passage of time. They take comfort in knowing that some of those things from when they were young and innocent still exist. They say things like, "Even if I end up ignoring 99.999% of the product because it isn't for me, I'm just glad it exists." Well, if that person is ignoring everything new, anyway, then it may as well NOT exist for them anymore to begin with; what they're demonstrating is, again, a feeling of security and comfort, not actual engagement.

Put simply, wanting or forcing something to exist long past its expiration date is unnatural, and in some cases unhealthy. All things, in time, must end. That's the natural order of things. And I'd argue that TMNT still shuffling around as a zombified corpse 30 years from now would be incredibly sad and pathetic.

But that's my opinion.

"Why is it that I've spent my life doing everything in my power - which is staggering, even to me - preventing endings? Why is it I live to save worlds, when one's ending made me? Why do I fight against them? Isn't my existence proof enough... that there CAN be happy endings?"
- Superman, "For Tomorrow", Superman Vol. 2 #215

"Everything Dies."
- Type O Negative, "Everything Dies"

[Wildcat]

I love that artwork that was posted.

I voted take short term breaks maybe a little longer. Take more time developing something. That’s not to say effort wasn’t put into 2012 cartoon or Rise...or even the Bay movies to a point. It’s just that every attempt is not going to turn out favorably. Which is normal.

There’s franchises that are older and just as old as TMNT that have gone through various highs and lows. I don’t see why anything has to come to an absolute end. Specific storylines and individual versions must end of course but it’s unnecessary to end the entire property.

(I accidentally pressed post before finishing in case it seemed weird that I only wrote 2 lines)

[sdp]

I feel all franchises need a long hibernation after it gets done with a "cycle", it gives time to refresh, feel nostalgic about the franchise etc. When things go on and on and on, they kind of lose their appeal to me. Not that it matters since oldmanwinters just derailed the thread

Even if it's fanart and not any new project I do feel the next project is going to be heavily influenced by the 1987 show, like a reimagining of the show, just look at how all merchandise is basically based of the 1987 show, the new game, the representation on the nick brawler etc. The fact that Rise of the TMNT failed, sent a loud message to viacom "FANS ONLY WANT 1987 TMNT", I think we're stuck in a 1987 rehash for the next decade at the very least.

[AquaParade]

Hibernation could be good, but then again, I’m not sure how that would change much. I don’t think it really increases the chances of it going in any particular direction. I suppose there would be less stuff to ignore lol.
I think if it sticks around, there are more attempts, which just gives more odds of good stuff coming out.
I respect the hibernation opinion, I just don’t see how it’d be beneficial. Maybe if this discussion had happened 15-20 years ago, I’d feel differently.

Probably helps that my favorite aspect of tmnt is still the place where they came from: comics. I even get joy out of seeing the monthly covers come in for the IDW ongoing, and I don’t even read it. I just like cool tmnt comic covers. So stuff like TLR go a long way for me. Same with reprints. Getting Image/Volume 3 reprinted in color, with a conclusion was damn awesome.

I get that it’s easy for fans of a specific Saturday morning cartoon, or the first movie, or whatever they’re “fix” was, to act like the show is over, but when an original creator is still alive and creating the comics, I’d say the show must go on. That’s a pretty special thing you don’t get with a lot of properties like this, especially this far into their life or in this day and age.

Kevin is still making tmnt comics. And they’re great. We can hibernate now, but we may never have that again, if we do.

[Leo656]

I mean, I guess that's nice. But Eastman's been openly rubber-stamping anything TMNT for a paycheck for so long now that he's basically just another Liefeld in my eyes. Just better at drawing.

It's why I wasn't sad when Laird packed it in. He had to stop himself multiple times from outright saying he wished he'd never even created TMNT. It was very clear that he had no emotional investment anymore and just wanted to wipe his hands of it all for good. And yet, people still wish for him to come back and "finish" something he'd emotionally divorced himself from ages ago. I have serious doubts he even had his heart in Vol. 4, no matter what he said at the time, and was only doing the series out of obligation to the audience and not out of any sincere want on his part.

On one hand, I didn't like what Laird was doing with the comics anyways, so him retiring was no skin off me. But at the same time, I was like "Okay, you really don't like doing this anymore, so you shouldn't have to, end of story." Even if I did like his direction I wouldn't be begging him to stay on if he didn't care anymore, that would be selfish.

Kevin, I don't think, has mentally "checked out" anywhere near the point where Pete did. I mean, obviously not, he chooses to remain involved. But it's still pretty clear to me that the whole TMNT gig is essentially, "It's all good as long as I get paid," and I'm kinda not a huge fan of that. He can stay involved as much as he wants, and that's fine, but even that isn't a huge deal to me by this point. Make no mistake, he's not in it for the love of the game, so while it's nice to see him get off the bench occasionally I'm certainly not gonna gush about it.

[AquaParade]

Nah, Kevin is all in on The Last Ronin. You can see the dude is pouring his back into the thing. It’s his legacy. And it’s damn cool to see him going at it so hard.

Kevin will do the promotion for the cruddy films and he’ll work for the paycheck, and he’ll even sell some weird ass **** on his website, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t a passionate creator. It’s cool if the comics aren’t your thing, but it seems like you’re out of the loop if you think Kevin is doing TLR simply for the paycheck. It’s clearly his baby.

Might agree with you on Peter Laird doing volume 4 though. That book reeks of depression.

[Leo656]

I just work with what the guy gives me. Again, he's said so many awful TMNT things were great that he comes off to me very clearly as a guy who'll say whatever so long as he gets paid.

I also own "Bodycount", and I paid for it, and it's junk, so I feel like I can be as critical as I want to of the guy. If anything HE probably owes ME a few bucks, for that.

I swear, both Kevin and Pete to me come off as pretty much hopeless without the other one to reign them in. They both did Good Things and Bad Things, but to me they only ever did Great Things when they were working together. They cancelled out each others' weaknesses pretty well, given their completely different sensibilities and priorities. As a solo act, each of them has thoroughly underwhelmed me. Although I do think Kevin is a bit better at handing a commercial property than Peter was, and seems to have a bit more on the ball as far as that goes. Peter was "booking" TMNT entirely for himself, whereas Kevin has a better sense of what the larger audience wants, which is important when working in the mainstream.

Also, you gotta remember that to me, Last Ronin is "just pretty good". Way too much of a love letter to The Dark Knight Returns, which is a story I've never been in love with to begin with, so what you essentially have (for me) is a TMNT-flavored retread of something I never thought was fantastic to start with. I get what they're going for and it's about a hundred times better than what the ongoing book is, but it's still not like the best thing ever, or anything. I feel like if the ongoing wasn't trash then TLR wouldn't be so mind-blowing for so many people.

It's Perfectly Fine and it's more on the right track with what things ought'a be. But again, I'm not gonna gush, I don't feel like gushing, you can't make me.

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Might agree with you on Peter Laird doing volume 4 though. That book reeks of depression.

And mid-life crisis, to boot.

At BEST, Vol. 4 is a slog. At worst, it's navel-gazing and joyless.

Really WANTED to like it, but for me, that series peaked with Issue 1 and never, ever got its heat back.

[AquaParade]

I agree that Kevin and Peter made a great team. They complimented each other and alleviated the flaws.

Bodycount was a mess, but from what it sounds like, Kevin pretty much had to tie Bisley down to get him to draw the pages and they didnt even always follow the script. And they're friends. I sort of feel for him on that one. But yeah, he may owe you a few bucks.

TLR is awesome, man. In comparison to the ongoing, for sure. It's not on the same shelf as the classics they are aspiring to, but not much is.
Quite honestly, it's exactly what tmnt should be, which yeah, is a miracle compared to what we usually get.

Yeah, issue #1 of volume 4 was good, wasn't it. I remember going back to that series a handful of years ago, and thinking "Hold up, this isn't so bad..." at the start. There are bits I like later on, but the pacing is horrible.

[Leo656]

I think perhaps, for me, the whole "Dark Future" angle is overplayed by now.

First Batman, and then they did a Superman Annual in 1991 that inverted that story with Superman as the focus (great issue, by the way), and then they did "Spider-Man: Reign" which was eh, and then all the terrible DKR sequels, and by now even TMNT have had several "dark future" stories of their own.

Basically, I'm over the whole non-canon Dark Future stuff just in general. I've seen it. Even at its best, by now its just an unavoidably derivative concept. Which isn't to say TLR is doing it poorly, it's just to say that I can't help but be bored by the entire idea in general after seeing it done, re-done, and overdone over the last 35 years. Especially since by way of being non-canon What If stuff, for me anyway it immediately negates a huge chunk of the emotional investment.

It's like watching The Exorcist as an atheist; if you're a devout Catholic or Christian, then it's a terrifying and engaging horror movie. If you're a non-believer, then it's a comedy with some pretty laughable overacting. How you come to the material in turn effects your opinion of it. If you're like me, then "non-canon What If" is shorthand for "None of this actually matters", and immediately, I care less. Granted, not everybody is like that, but that's how it works in my head.

What WOULD get me a bit more excited would be if there was an ongoing present-day TMNT which had some of the same sensibilities as TLR. The stakes immediately feel higher for me when a storyline is Creating Canon and not avoiding it on purpose. But again, that's me.

[Wildcat]

I don’t read the comics or follow Kevin Eastman on social media but whenever I do see an interview or something I think he genuinely likes staying with TMNT.

It’s a huge franchise (despite what some might think or recent material). It’s a legacy franchise by now. It’s so ingrained in pop culture I’m sure he’s proud of it. I’m sure he dislikes some versions too. He just can’t come out and trash it.

I don’t think he keeps doing it for money though. He could have stepped away years ago if he wanted.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Wildcat

I don’t think he keeps doing it for money though. He could have stepped away years ago if he wanted.

I'unno about all that. I'm not in any way involved in the situation but I'm aware he had some business ventures blow up on him over the years, and that he himself was at various points alleged to have engaged in some questionable business practices outside of Mirage.

I'm sure he's doing very well, but I doubt he's at "F*ck-You Money" status. He cashed out on his ownership of TMNT long before Laird did, AND the $60 million that Nick paid Laird for the brand is... well, kind of a joke. I mean You or I would kill a truckload of orphans for $60 million dollars, but it's actually not a ton of money considering how "huge" the brand is supposed to be. They spent more on either of the BayTurtles movies than they did for the entire franchise, for f*ck's sake.

Consider that Disney paid over $4 billion to George Lucas for Star Wars, and it really hammers home how small-time the TMNT franchise truly is. In the grand scheme of things, it's... nothing. It's only big to "us" because we care about it.

Anyways, Eastman had already cashed out years before then, and whatever he got back in the day, I highly doubt it was anywhere near $60 million. He probably doesn't "have" to work these days, but it's probably in his best financial interests to do so. Outside of TMNT, his track record is... spotty.

And, not to be mean or anything, but it bears pointing out that like most others from Mirage, if it's not TMNT-related nobody was ever exactly beating down any of their doors with job offers. Whether it's fair or not, outside of TMNT Eastman (and Laird as well) never managed to achieve any tremendous success, and there are multiple reasons for that, I figure. Eastman's greatest success outside of TMNT was arguably with Heavy Metal, but he bought into that, it's not like he created it. And some say he wasn't exactly great in that role, either, but I wasn't there nor did I follow the situation very closely. I just know that outside of Mirage, not everyone who worked with the guy has great things to say about him.

For my money, Eastman's greatest "success" wasn't even with TMNT, anyways. It was banging Julie Strain back when that meant something.

[Wildcat]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I'unno about all that. I'm not in any way involved in the situation but I'm aware he had some business ventures blow up on him over the years, and that he himself was at various points alleged to have engaged in some questionable business practices outside of Mirage.

I'm sure he's doing very well, but I doubt he's at "F*ck-You Money" status. He cashed out on his ownership of TMNT long before Laird did, AND the $60 million that Nick paid Laird for the brand is... well, kind of a joke. I mean You or I would kill a truckload of orphans for $60 million dollars, but it's actually not a ton of money considering how "huge" the brand is supposed to be. They spent more on either of the BayTurtles movies than they did for the entire franchise, for f*ck's sake.

Consider that Disney paid over $4 billion to George Lucas for Star Wars, and it really hammers home how small-time the TMNT franchise truly is. In the grand scheme of things, it's... nothing. It's only big to "us" because we care about it.

Anyways, Eastman had already cashed out years before then, and whatever he got back in the day, I highly doubt it was anywhere near $60 million. He probably doesn't "have" to work these days, but it's probably in his best financial interests to do so. Outside of TMNT, his track record is... spotty.

And, not to be mean or anything, but it bears pointing out that like most others from Mirage, if it's not TMNT-related nobody was ever exactly beating down any of their doors with job offers. Whether it's fair or not, outside of TMNT Eastman (and Laird as well) never managed to achieve any tremendous success, and there are multiple reasons for that, I figure. Eastman's greatest success outside of TMNT was arguably with Heavy Metal, but he bought into that, it's not like he created it. And some say he wasn't exactly great in that role, either, but I wasn't there nor did I follow the situation very closely. I just know that outside of Mirage, not everyone who worked with the guy has great things to say about him.

For my money, Eastman's greatest "success" wasn't even with TMNT, anyways. It was banging Julie Strain back when that meant something.

Oh man, the orphans line made me laugh.

Well I don’t know about his personal business either but I think he views TMNT as more than a paycheck. He co-created what ended up being iconic characters.

I agree Laird should have gotten more. I don’t remember any of the Nick figures from then.

[Leo656]

Well yeah, if you create something then it's always gonna mean at least SLIGHTLY more than just money. But as we've seen in Laird's case, arguably not always MUCH more. He sold the brand for a song just to be rid of it.

I do think Kevin cares more than Laird does, definitely. How much, I can't say. But I doubt he'd be doing this for free, let's just put it like that.

[frank_one]

Nah. Peter was the one who cared. He had an opinion about what was good for the franchise and he wasn't afraid to fight for it. At the end he sold the Turtles as a consequence of a long and incurable burnout after he had been "the Turtles guy" for most of his life. He obtained more money than he will be able to spend in his remaining years but STILL he asked Viacom for the right to publish some Turtles comics a year. This is something to remember.
Kevin? Man, he sold his part of Turtles way before 2009. He will openly say that every new iteration of the franchise is cool if you pay him enough. He is definetely not the one to trust.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Originally Posted by sdp

I feel all franchises need a long hibernation after it gets done with a "cycle", it gives time to refresh, feel nostalgic about the franchise etc. When things go on and on and on, they kind of lose their appeal to me. Not that it matters since oldmanwinters just derailed the thread

Even if it's fanart and not any new project I do feel the next project is going to be heavily influenced by the 1987 show, like a reimagining of the show, just look at how all merchandise is basically based of the 1987 show, the new game, the representation on the nick brawler etc. The fact that Rise of the TMNT failed, sent a loud message to viacom "FANS ONLY WANT 1987 TMNT", I think we're stuck in a 1987 rehash for the next decade at the very least.

If it does happen, I have a feeling it won't last. It's really only going to appeal to the small minority of fans who still hold onto nostalgia. I mean is anyone watching the new Animaniacs series on Hulu? As someone who would rush home from school to watch the original show, I've only watched one episode of the new series and while I enjoyed it, I haven't watched the rest of it ever since. People jumped up for joy when they saw the trailers for it only to either not tune in for it or to watch an episode and drop off from there. I don't think anyone's paying attention to the Rugrats reboot.

I've never said this before but I believe more fans are really into the 90s films than the FW toon, especially if we include fans born in the mid-90s. They're introduction to turtles came from the 90s movies and I had a chat with quite a number of people that were born around 94 or younger and they've heard of the original cartoon but they never got into it. There are FW fans that love both FW and the 90s films while others who love the movies may never have been into FW.

Also that picture could very well be just fanart. It leans more towards Archie than FW.

[frank_one]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Might agree with you on Peter Laird doing volume 4 though. That book reeks of depression.

Like, you know, most of the comics from Mirage. "Life at best is bittersweet".

[Leo656]

Perhaps I misspoke. "Cares more" was too broad, and as you've pointed out, not entirely accurate.

I guess I should have said, "Cares enough to want to remain involved even now." Or, "At one point, Laird cared more, but now it's Eastman, since he still wants to be involved but Laird doesn't."

Laird definitely cared more about "what was right for the brand", sure. At least back then. As I pointed out, Eastman is more of a "rubber-stamp" guy. Anything TMNT, to him, is "awesome"... especially if he gets paid for saying so.

But yeah my previous statement wasn't entirely accurate. In my defense, I've been chatting with Andrew on FB this whole time and he has a smooth-ass narrator's voice so I might be a little distracted. Seriously, though, someone hire this guy to do some books on tape, stat.

No wonder he pulled down so much Drome Trim back in the day. Allegedly. "Back When That Meant Something."