Unrest in Ukraine

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by Sumac

What did he said this time?
Is that about his line where he called Putin "butcher"?

Basically called for Putin to be forcibly removed from power. Not that I disagree but there's a time and a place for that, and it's not when a diplomatic compromise seems within reach.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Lets see how Biden plans to remove Putin from power, and bring about the great russian revolution. Spoiler alert: Its more sanctions, and saying something in a speech which totally won't be used as a justification by the Russians.

Russia is gonna fall anytime now. Democracy and love will soon reach the motherland!

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Lets see how Biden plans to remove Putin from power, and bring about the great russian revolution. Spoiler alert: Its more sanctions, and saying something in a speech which totally won't be used as a justification by the Russians.

Russia is gonna fall anytime now. Democracy and love will soon reach the motherland!

Please, let's not have any more of those.

[Mayhem]

He didn’t talk about removing him from power, just that he shouldn't remain in power. Which could be done via people close to Putin for example. But in terms of diplomacy, yeah not the sort of thing to be saying in a speech perhaps!

[Vegita-San]

imagine if trump said that?

Sounds like something someone might have done on the 6th...hmm....pre emptive training?

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by Mayhem

He didn’t talk about removing him from power, just that he shouldn't remain in power. Which could be done via people close to Putin for example. But in terms of diplomacy, yeah not the sort of thing to be saying in a speech perhaps!

Via people close to Putin removing him from power. Forcibly, because it won't happen any other way. There's just no way to sugarcoat what Biden meant, especially not in the eyes of a paranoid former Cold War spy.

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

imagine if trump said that?

Sounds like something someone might have done on the 6th...hmm....pre emptive training?

Someone did: Mike Pence. And here we are, knee-deep in sh*t because of the snowball he got rolling.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by ChosenOne

Basically called for Putin to be forcibly removed from power. Not that I disagree but there's a time and a place for that, and it's not when a diplomatic compromise seems within reach.

With that I kind of agree.

It might have been done on purpose, though, to keep Putin's paranoia up. Since he already went past line, where he could have been considered "necessary evil", its just an attempt to throw him off balance and make him do more mistakes.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Sumac

With that I kind of agree.

It might have been done on purpose, though, to keep Putin's paranoia up. Since he already went past line, where he could have been considered "necessary evil", its just an attempt to throw him off balance and make him do more mistakes.

I've had that thought. Like, Biden doesn't say anything that the teleprompter doesn't tell him to, and he barely manages that. And even then he'll say stuff he's not supposed to like "I'm going to get in trouble now" (wow, what a strong president).

But yeah. Like maybe we had Biden say something like that and had the White House immediately redact it. Purpose being to make Putin go, "Uh oh, the old feeble man let slip their real plan and the White House didn't want it revealed... I better back down." As in almost a Trump simulation, on purpose.

Maybe.

[Sumac]

At this point it is obvious that Putin won't back down.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Sumac

At this point it is obvious that Putin won't back down.

What if everyone he relies on get sick of him?

[CyberCubed]

I really don't know what people want Biden to do. He's not going to send physical troops down to Russia to fight. This isn't Iraq or Afghanistan, the U.S. is not going to go to physical war with Russia. It would be disastrous for all sides. There's really nothing he can do but create sanctions and deliver funds to Ukraine like what he's doing. Anyone who thinks U.S. going to war with Russia is a good thing is out of their minds.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by neatoman

What if everyone he relies on get sick of him?

I am not sure if it happens.

By starting invasion Putin put all his elites under fire - on the West all of them would be branded as criminals, so giving up their leader will destroy them and their reputation basically in ruins anyway. As such they have no reason to do it, not yet. Even as they are losing money and reputation, they still can preserve their freedom in Russia.

And I am not sure, what Putin can do to alienate them so much it will lead to a coup. It doesn't help that he culled pretty much everyone among elites who could challenge him for position of a leader, so there won't be a singular leader who elites could choose to replace him.

Its basically bunch of groups with their own interests and Putin serves as their mediator / arbiter. Which is why there is a big chance, if Putin dies, his regime will collapse to pieces and his elites will lose power in internal struggle, which might quickly become external.

All in all, Russia's ****ed.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I really don't know what people want Biden to do. He's not going to send physical troops down to Russia to fight. This isn't Iraq or Afghanistan, the U.S. is not going to go to physical war with Russia. It would be disastrous for all sides. There's really nothing he can do but create sanctions and deliver funds to Ukraine like what he's doing. Anyone who thinks U.S. going to war with Russia is a good thing is out of their minds.

This is an idea, I hope more people could understand.
Constant chanting "US should do more" is annoying, since they are already doing everything they can short of military intervention, which, of course, is highly unadvisable, when you deal with country with nukes.

[joe-eyeball]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I really don't know what people want Biden to do. He's not going to send physical troops down to Russia to fight. This isn't Iraq or Afghanistan, the U.S. is not going to go to physical war with Russia. It would be disastrous for all sides. There's really nothing he can do but create sanctions and deliver funds to Ukraine like what he's doing. Anyone who thinks U.S. going to war with Russia is a good thing is out of their minds.

Except that Putin has never really made it a secret that he wanted to invade Ukraine for a long time and had been fortifying the border with resources for a potential invasion. Meanwhile many nations and the USA included reacted as if the whole thing was just posturing. Perhaps if the threat had been taken seriously then with either sending resources and fortifying Ukraine’s defense with a combination of diplomacy this could have been avoided?

I would also add that what people definitely DO NOT want Biden to do is say stupid crap that can very easily be taken as a direct threat by a Madman running the country of one of our longest rival and enemy nations!

I’m not saying that anything mentioned above would have absolutely worked but the world definitely deserves fair criticism for the clear inaction that took place. And America will always take the brunt of it and rightfully so. Also Biden practically dared Putin with his stupid statement regarding that he wouldn’t take action as long as it’s is a minor incursion. I don’t think unfair at all to question Biden’s leadership through this crisis as he has certainly looked weak.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by joe-eyeball

Except that Putin has never really made it a secret that he wanted to invade Ukraine for a long time and had been fortifying the border with resources for a potential invasion. Meanwhile many nations and the USA included reacted as if the whole thing was just posturing.

If US was taking it just mere posturing they wouldn't publicly said that Russia prepares for an invasion. Also, AFAIK, EU and US were helping Ukraine in some capacity.

But, of course, no-one in their right mind believed that Putin will do it. Since he already did similar posturing last year and overall situation reminded of North Korea with their constant threat of sending nuclear rockets who knows where.

If anything it was seen as even less probable, because outcome of this invasion was obvious to everyone: no matter success in Ukraine, Russia would come out with a ruined reputation, economy and Putin would essentially become person-non-grata for the rest of the world.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I find it interesting how the Russians, despite having held onto the occupied territory for so long, have not made any signficant territorial gains recently despite saying that they have the necessary resources to take over Ukraine. What is the Russian gameplan to take over all of Ukraine, and how long will it take to enact?

A mere 80 years ago, expansionist empires could invade multiple countries within the span of months, even weeks in some cases. Times have changed for sure, and Russia obviously doesn't want to suffer the same fate as said expansionist empires did in the past, but its still so weird to see the largest country on earth stalling with an invasion of a much smaller and militarily inferior country.

Wonder how much of Ukraine will be under Russian hands in say, 5 months?

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

I find it interesting how the Russians, despite having held onto the occupied territory for so long, have not made any signficant territorial gains recently despite saying that they have the necessary resources to take over Ukraine. What is the Russian gameplan to take over all of Ukraine, and how long will it take to enact?

It seems main plan was never to take over Ukraine as a whole, since Russian economy would not been able to sustain it.

The initial plan was to take over Kyiv and install a puppet government. How it would have worked, considering that it would have be toppled down as soon as Russian forces would left, no-one knows.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by Sumac

The initial plan was to take over Kyiv and install a puppet government. How it would have worked, considering that it would have be toppled down as soon as Russian forces would left, no-one knows.

Ironically, I think that the very people that Putin used as a justification to invade and "Denazify" Ukraine are the ones who might be installed in occupied territorities to keep things in order once the Russians are gone. "The enemy of my enemy is friend" I think will be a huge factor in how the war plays out.

[CyberCubed]

Also remember most people living in Ukraine were in fact from Russian families or descended from people living in Russia. It's basically just Russian's killing their own people.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Also remember most people living in Ukraine were in fact from Russian families or descended from people living in Russia. It's basically just Russian's killing their own people.

It is not the case.
Ukrainians have a lot of Russian relatives its true, though.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

https://www.yahoo.com/news/wagner-group-182626006.html
It reads like one of Putin's associates funds a mercenary group called Wagner Group and is using it for violence against civilians while not claiming association.

It was known for quite a while, so nothing new here.
Also, its called Wagner, because its leader is allegedly big fan of Nazis.