Dragon Ball Daima

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Daima has been production for a few years and will really only be about 20 episodes. The first episode, as I said is pretty good, with the biggest problem with somehow attempting to keep continuity with Super but screwing up one major thing there. The episode makes it very clear who the villains are, what they are doing, why they are doing it and what they hope to achieve. The story itself is very well explained at this point.

The only somewhat worrying thing that is completely new is the the revelation that the Dragon Balls can be summoned to one place without physically collecting them one by one, and that they can reactiviated prematurely on command. Though I think this might be explained later on and why it hasn't been done before or since.

I don't think Daima is supposed to fit into Super. They changed how the Fusions work, for one thing. It's completely ignoring anything Super has lined up with the only sorta reference being that they still say the DB World is in Universe 7.

I think the Dragonballs being summoned and reactivated at will is something only that particular Namekian can do, so it doesn't really retcon anything.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Mad Dog McMutt

Changing how the dragonballs work is a huge sin in my eyes. Just like Frieza being told by Beerus to blow up planet Vegeta. It's just a dumb idea that just wasn't necessary. Not only that, but it devalues already established continuity. I hate how much was retconned.

Beerus suggested it, he didn't tell him to do it.

And the Dragon Balls haven't been changed, there's a new character introduced who is able to do things with them Dende and the others didn't know about. Every new DBZ saga did something new the previous ones didn't. The time chamber in Kami's lookout literally came out of nowhere in the Cell saga when we never see it in Dragon Ball.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Autbot_Benz

cause I prefer the English Dub. It's what I grew up with when I watched DBZ on TV back in the day.

Also I don't care for the "Granny Goku" voice that the sub uses.

Dragonball anything and Cowboy Bebop are the only two anime's I go English for

I guess, even though 'granny goku' is the real Goku. That 'superhero-ish' voice Schemmel does just never worked for me and something in his delivery always made Goku sound more stupid than naive. But I get it. A lot of people grew up on the dub.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

I don't think Daima is supposed to fit into Super. They changed how the Fusions work, for one thing. It's completely ignoring anything Super has lined up with the only sorta reference being that they still say the DB World is in Universe 7.

I think the Dragonballs being summoned and reactivated at will is something only that particular Namekian can do, so it doesn't really retcon anything.

I doubt it's intended to be independent from Super, not writing that off completely but I don't see why they would do that. So far it's just the Kaioshin having undone his fusion too early that is a problem, which I think was more Toriyama forgetting when it was supposed to happen rather than an intentional contradiction, unless there is a gag towards the end that causes them to reunite which would be something he'd do. And the fusion thing isn't so much a retcon, Vegito unfused within Boo and the stuff about non-Kaioshin not being to correctly use the ear rings is just something Gowasu said without more context, both can easily be true.

I don't really see why the plot and world building of Super would be ignored, especially considering Toriyama came up with most of it. And it's a little more than just stating the main universe is number seven, for example, the names Degesu and Arinsu are references to Zamasu and Gowasu. Then the stuff about the Namekians being from another realm is something that was stated in the Super manga. Obviously they don't go into much detail here but the show clearly takes place before Super does, so that's not really possible. How would they even be able to reference Beerus, God Saiyan, Blue Saiyan, Gold Freeza, Zamasu, Universe 6, Ultra Instinct, Moro, the Angels, Planet Cereal and the secret continued Red Ribbon if they straight up don't know about that stuff yet?

[CyberCubed]

I watched all of Super subbed when it came out and got used to the Japanese voices immediately despite never seeing DBZ subbed. And keep in mind Nozawa is much older when she recorded Super than in the 80's and 90's.

[Cowabung-Gal]

I personally think that Daima is actually a retcon of GT (which in my humble opinion is garbage) and it takes place between Z and Super. If GT was canon (which it isn’t) then would Goku need to be turned into a kid twice?

One person made a good point on YouTube. There are basically three universes/timelines:

1. Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z (Toriyama’s original manga)
2. Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z + movies, and Dragon Ball GT (the movies exist within GT)
3. Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z without the 10 year peaceful time skip, and Dragon Ball Super

Yeah, I know. The multiverse jazz.

I mean it’s pretty obvious at this point that Super kinda retcons the original End of Z (after the 10 years of peace), which I think is actually a good thing. I mean, let’s face it, it’s a crummy way to end the Dragon Ball series. At least Super paves the way for more possibilities, like Gohan potentially surpassing Goku.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by sdp

Dragon ball is not getting a manga remake. Unlike Ranma/Sailor Moon/Magic Knight Rayearth/FMA; the Db/Z anime is very faithful if you remove the filler and they already did that with Kai.
If we get a remake it'll be a CG one that is nothing like the manga and takes more liberties. Like saint seiya another anime that was already faithful to the manga.

Unfortunately, that's not entirely true. While there are virtually no major liberties taken with the existing scenes, the biggest one is almost certainly changing the incident where Videl tricks Gohan into revealing he's the great Saiyaman from chasing a pair of crooks to some elaborate nonsense about a circus poaching a baby pteranodon, it still does a lot to drag out the story as much as possible. Kai did not remove all the filler because such a thing is impossible, the aforementioned circus thing was kept because the only way of removing it would have been to animate the chase in its place, see also Bulma-Frog and Mr Satan's students.

A new adaptation would not only be better paced than Kai, it would actually be able to include the arcs before the Saiyans and do it all in fewer episodes too. Just because they didn't screw up and take the story in a bonkers direction that is incompatible with the manga, doesn't mean a new adaptation wouldn't be more faithful.

Originally Posted by Cowabung-Gal

I personally think that Daima is actually a retcon of GT (which in my humble opinion is garbage) and it takes place between Z and Super. If GT was canon (which it isn’t) then would Goku need to be turned into a kid twice?

One person made a good point on YouTube. There are basically three universes/timelines:

1. Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z (Toriyama’s original manga)
2. Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z + movies, and Dragon Ball GT (the movies exist within GT)
3. Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z without the 10 year peaceful time skip, and Dragon Ball Super

Yeah, I know. The multiverse jazz.

I mean it’s pretty obvious at this point that Super kinda retcons the original End of Z (after the 10 years of peace), which I think is actually a good thing. I mean, let’s face it, it’s a crummy way to end the Dragon Ball series. At least Super paves the way for more possibilities, like Gohan potentially surpassing Goku.

Not sure I follow this. The only real conflict between Super and the end of the original manga is Bulma's comment on not having seen Goku for five years, beyond that it's pretty much compatible, regardless if you go with the Super anime or the Super manga.

GT does more or less works as a follow-up without Super or Daima but I don't really get that stuff with the movies, they don't even make much sense with each other or the shows. If we take those movies seriously, then Goku somehow lives long enough after recovering from the heart virus to go on two outer space adventures, still dies against Cell and somehow Vegeta and him don't come back until way after Majin Boo is defeated. And that's just the biggest question about those movies, pretty much all of them tend to show characters being alive when they're supposed to be dead or vice versa and show them doing things they shouldn't be able to or forget what they should be able to do, they're a real mess when it comes to timeline consistency.

[Mad Dog McMutt]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Beerus suggested it, he didn't tell him to do it.

This video says differently. I don't know how to post a youtube video, but I can send a link to it. https://youtu.be/qzrGMpBYYt0?feature=shared

[Cowabung-Gal]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Not sure I follow this. The only real conflict between Super and the end of the original manga is Bulma's comment on not having seen Goku for five years, beyond that it's pretty much compatible, regardless if you go with the Super anime or the Super manga.

Oh that’s not the only conflict.

1. In the original ending, Vegeta doesn’t know that Kid Buu was reborn and was shocked to learn this, but Goku tells him much earlier in Super (though to be fair, that happened in a filler)

2. How could they have had “10 years of peace” when they had to deal with Goku Black, a resurrected and now ridiculously powerful Frieza, Moro, and the revival of the Red Ribbon Army that has created a giant Cell? Goten and Trunks had become lazy by the End of Z because they didn’t do much fighting, but in the Super manga, they’re now fighting crime as the Saiyamen X.

3. Piccolo has achieved the new powerful Orange form and is on par with Goku and Vegeta, but at the End of Z he’s doesn’t want to participate in the Tournament and spar against them?

4. Vegeta declares at the end of the Kanzenban version of Z that he will one day defeat Goku. But in the Super manga and at the end of the movie Super Hero, Vegeta DOES finally defeat Goku and is just ecstatic over his victory.

5. Gohan is a laid back nerd by the End of Z, but in Super he realizes that he’s gotten soft from cutting back on his training and has just achieved the Beast Form.

6. After being called old by Goku and learning that Saiyans age slower than humans, Bulma angrily suggests using the Dragon Balls to wish herself younger at the End of Z, and yeah, she does look pretty old. In Super, she looks really good for her age, and the reason for that is because she’s been using the Dragon Balls to give herself a younger appearance for a while now.

7. With the introduction of Super Broly, wouldn’t Goku want him to participate in the Tournament too (as long as he could control his temper)?

8. With Beerus and Whis becoming a huge part in Vegeta and Goku’s life, wouldn’t they be watching the Tournament too?

There are so many conflicting details in Super that wouldn’t fit into the End of Z, which isn’t that good anyway and is rather unsatisfying, so I’ve got no complaints.

[Mad Dog McMutt]

^Wow, this girl knows her Dragonball.

[sdp]

Super is official fan fiction, Toriyama just did it because fans/toei kept asking for it but his true work was done and is the original story. It's not even consistent. The manga wasn't really done by Toriyama, it contradicts the "canon" anime. The "canon" movies contradict the adaptations in the episodes. Some stuff in the anime doesn't happen in the manga and vice-versa.
The original Dragon Ball manga has a beginning an end by Toriyama and it's all just called DB.

Originally Posted by neatoman

Unfortunately, that's not entirely true.

Didn't they animate some new scenes for Kai? Any reason to watch Kai over Z if I don't mind watching filler? I think it having a different OST than the iconic one is a big reason to skip Kai unless I'm missing something.

Originally Posted by Cowabung-Gal

1. Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z (Toriyama’s original manga)
2. Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z + movies, and Dragon Ball GT (the movies exist within GT)
3. Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z without the 10 year peaceful time skip, and Dragon Ball Super

I mean it's a lot more complicated than that.
Super has movies that are contradicted by the Super anime so which one is canon?

The Dragon Ball/Z anime literally has an arc that references the Garlick movie. it's one of the easier ones to put in the timeline but still that sort of implies the movies are canon. GT IIRC has the villain movies appear in hell and are revived. The movies do contradict events in the anime so it's a hard fit.
Youa also have the retelling movies of Dragon Ball which would be a different timeline.

Unironically the best timeline was made by the video games. They incorporate the movies with the anime organically.


I'm glad they divided Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z in the anime. Kid Goku Dragon Ball is a different beast and far more entertaining as an adventure show. It does get a bit shonen towards the end but the Piccolo Jr. Fight is the best ending the series ever got. You had Goku finally winning the tournament, he was no longer a short kid and he was going to go get married.

Z is just fights and power ups, I like it for what it is but the magic and adventurous world of the original is all but gone. The dragon balls are just a plot point instead of the adventure. Goku being an alien kills the idea of who he was. We no longer see animal people. Piccolo is now an alien instead of a demon. I mean I like the saiyan arc, and the freeze arc is a nice ending to what the saiyan saga started. Android saga is interesting with all its plot twists and the return of the Red Ribbon Army. And while power ups got ridiculous with the Boo saga I liked that it became goofy as hell instead of serious. Z's ending is horrible. GT actually gave us a better ending than Z, and doubt Super will ever give us a better ending than GT did. It literally gave everyone closure.66++++-


------

I love seeing the Super **** seething over Daima and some pretending to like it. Fact is most Americans just don't like the original dragon ball because they grew up with DBZ unlike Asia, europe and the rest of the world.
You can tell Toriyama didn't like Super and just gave toei some ideas for them to develop like he used to for the DBZ movies. So when he decided to continue making something new for Dragon Ball that was more from him, he decided to set it before super so he could completely ignore all of that except for perhaps some idea he might've liked which he could reference. I love the early DB feels it gives me, it doesn't quite feel like original dragon ball but it's loads better than whatever Super was supposed to be.

[Mad Dog McMutt]

DBZ may have had it's fair share of continuity errors. Especially involving the timeline and the movies, but if we just look at just the show then I feel like for every mistake that they made they also made 100 brilliant ideas. I can't say the same for Super or GT. I thought GT was mediocre, but it was gold compared to Super. Super was almost nothing but bad ideas and concepts that don't really flow well. I hope that the new series proves me wrong, but I feel like they are gonna mess up this show as well.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Originally Posted by Mad Dog McMutt

^Wow, this girl knows her Dragonball.

Lol, I’m no Dragon Ball expert by any means. I’ve recently become a fan (well, I’ve been one since I was a kid but I’ve really gotten into it lately).

Originally Posted by sdp

Super is official fan fiction, Toriyama just did it because fans/toei kept asking for it but his true work was done and is the original story.

Toriyama has always been controlled by the fans. He planned to end the Dragon Balls series much earlier during the young Goku years but nope, due to its growing popularity, he had to keep going. After Goku’s death in the Cell games, he wanted to focus more on Gohan and write silly light-hearted stories again, which is how we ended up with the campy Great Saiyaman. But nope, the fans wouldn’t have it. After years and years of constant demands and pressure, I think I know what finally did Toriyama in.

I get why people think that Super is a pale comparison to Z, and that’s true since nothing really beats the classics or the impact that those classics have had on generations. But it’s not that big of a deal if Super does retcon the End of Z. If you tried to tackle the continuity issues with the entire franchise, you’d probably end up with a migraine.

One argument against Super that I can’t stand is, “They made Goku dumb!” What, like Goku has always been the sharpest tool in the shed? He agreed to marry Chi-Chi because he thought that “bride” meant something to eat!

I’m still convinced that Daima takes place within the Super timeline because we get a cameo of Bardock in the outfit that he wore in the Super manga.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Originally Posted by sdp

Z's ending is horrible. GT actually gave us a better ending than Z, and doubt Super will ever give us a better ending than GT did. It literally gave everyone closure.

End of Z is terrible, I agree.

GT giving everyone “closure”, though….

[ZariusTwo]

The Buu Saga to me ought to be exclusively a prequel saga to the GT timeline. Z for me ended on Cell and I imagine a great deal of people think the same. It's also when Kai ended correct?

Super is just a mess, bad animation, too much slice of life, and sagas that rely entirely on your nostalgia of better sagas.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Cowabung-Gal

Oh that’s not the only conflict.

1. In the original ending, Vegeta doesn’t know that Kid Buu was reborn and was shocked to learn this, but Goku tells him much earlier in Super (though to be fair, that happened in a filler)

2. How could they have had “10 years of peace” when they had to deal with Goku Black, a resurrected and now ridiculously powerful Frieza, Moro, and the revival of the Red Ribbon Army that has created a giant Cell? Goten and Trunks had become lazy by the End of Z because they didn’t do much fighting, but in the Super manga, they’re now fighting crime as the Saiyamen X.

3. Piccolo has achieved the new powerful Orange form and is on par with Goku and Vegeta, but at the End of Z he’s doesn’t want to participate in the Tournament and spar against them?

4. Vegeta declares at the end of the Kanzenban version of Z that he will one day defeat Goku. But in the Super manga and at the end of the movie Super Hero, Vegeta DOES finally defeat Goku and is just ecstatic over his victory.

5. Gohan is a laid back nerd by the End of Z, but in Super he realizes that he’s gotten soft from cutting back on his training and has just achieved the Beast Form.

6. After being called old by Goku and learning that Saiyans age slower than humans, Bulma angrily suggests using the Dragon Balls to wish herself younger at the End of Z, and yeah, she does look pretty old. In Super, she looks really good for her age, and the reason for that is because she’s been using the Dragon Balls to give herself a younger appearance for a while now.

7. With the introduction of Super Broly, wouldn’t Goku want him to participate in the Tournament too (as long as he could control his temper)?

8. With Beerus and Whis becoming a huge part in Vegeta and Goku’s life, wouldn’t they be watching the Tournament too?

There are so many conflicting details in Super that wouldn’t fit into the End of Z, which isn’t that good anyway and is rather unsatisfying, so I’ve got no complaints.

I had to go through the final chapters of the manga to be sure here. Notably I got one thing wrong, it's four years rather than five (or the translator got something wrong). Anyway, I can't see see any statement about there being ten years of uninterrupted peace, just that it's been ten years since the defeat of Majin Boo and that it's peaceful at that point. Then things like Vegeta not knowing about Oob does just seem to be Toei writers screwing up, I'm pretty sure he never finds out in the manga version. And yes, Vegeta does technically defeat Goku in both the movie and the manga but in a match where the rules were to not use any transformations or range attacks, so that may not have been entirely satisfying to him (and it's implied that Goku may have let him win)? As for Bulma, she did start to rely on cosmetics and only ever made wishes for minor alterations, it's not exactly difficult to see her starting to look closer to her actual age after a while. Broly is also somewhat lacking in control so bringing him to earth for a tournament with regular guys is an obviously bad idea.

Then the stuff about Gohan and Piccolo not participating in the tournament or Beerus not showing up seems a little forced. Gohan and Piccolo may simply just not want to under those circumstances and, while it's easy to forget given how much he shows up, Beerus is a character who considers sleeping for 50 years to be a nap and watching a bunch of normal humans get pushed around by Boo might not be entertaining enough.

Originally Posted by sdp

Didn't they animate some new scenes for Kai? Any reason to watch Kai over Z if I don't mind watching filler? I think it having a different OST than the iconic one is a big reason to skip Kai unless I'm missing something.

In a technical sense they reanimated a few scenes because they couldn't be remastered that well, but that mostly amounts to tracing existing frames. As for any reason beyond the lack of filler, they do actually speed up the fight scenes interestingly enough.

[Anarchistguy]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

The Buu Saga to me ought to be exclusively a prequel saga to the GT timeline. Z for me ended on Cell and I imagine a great deal of people think the same. It's also when Kai ended correct?

Super is just a mess, bad animation, too much slice of life, and sagas that rely entirely on your nostalgia of better sagas.

That's the problem with post-1996 Dragon Ball in general, not just Super.

When Toriyama was doing the original manga, he drew inspiration from things that he enjoyed at the time: 1970s Kung Fu movies, Sc-Fi movies, video games, etc. That's part of what made it so much fun

The modern stuff just creates their arcs by taking what's already been pre established and puts a new twist on it.

Dragon Ball absolutely SUCKS when it takes inspiration from Dragon Ball (I know what I said lol).

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

I guess, even though 'granny goku' is the real Goku. That 'superhero-ish' voice Schemmel does just never worked for me and something in his delivery always made Goku sound more stupid than naive. But I get it. A lot of people grew up on the dub.

Yeah I'm not a fan of "Champion of justice" Goku either lol. Yes the japanese voice is odd, but it fits his personality pretty well IMO.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Broly is also somewhat lacking in control so bringing him to earth for a tournament with regular guys is an obviously bad idea.

But it worked out so well for Vegeta last time, right?

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Cowabung-Gal

But it worked out so well for Vegeta last time, right?

There is a big difference between someone lacking self-control and a wizard alien showing up to make people as evil as possible.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Originally Posted by neatoman

There is a big difference between someone lacking self-control and a wizard alien showing up to make people as evil as possible.

Vegeta could’ve resisted Babidi’s influence, but he wanted to surpass Goku at all costs and gave in to the temptation. I’d say he had low self-control himself.

Originally Posted by neatoman

And yes, Vegeta does technically defeat Goku in both the movie and the manga but in a match where the rules were to not use any transformations or range attacks, so that may not have been entirely satisfying to him (and it's implied that Goku may have let him win)?

Goku letting Vegeta win? Sure, he will let that idiot Hercule “win”. But his longtime rival who inspires him to push past his limits and get even stronger? No way.