TMNT #121 preview and discussion

[TigerClaw]

Originally Posted by lonewarrior20

Lots of blood, fighting, hob in a cage, and I bet you their still going to complain cause it's not "my" turtles.

Its either that, Or they just hate women, Particularly lizard women.

[TigerClaw]

Just finished reading the issue and thought it was great, I was surprised to see

Spoiler:

Pete coming back.

Its been a long time.

Also seeing Mona Lisa kicking some ass was cool, Especially how she used her tail more then once.

[ChosenOne]

Just finished reading too. The only points of interest in a 20-something-pages issue were Hob's mysterious associate, the exchange between Sally and Ray, and the (unintended?) comedy moment where Sally talls Pete that he's safe now in the same panel as the weasel trio notice he's a bird.

On the note of animal behavior, let's go over this again: reptiles do not have prehensile tails!

Stop making unscientific crap up just to give your author self-insert of a Mary Sue the spotlight.

I don't even know what this thing is anymore, apart from some weird furry-themed lolicon fanfiction. LMFAO at the clueless cult-like simps who think TMNT is solely about violence, blood and fighting, and not about good writing and even better characterization at the root of it all.

(And no, piling relationship upon relationship on the readers doesn't count as characterization.)

[Lord Nightwalker]

It seemed. Well, short. ?

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by Lord Nightwalker

It seemed. Well, short. ?

You mean padded out with needless fight beats. This whole arc could've been told in three issues instead of a sprawling, what is it now, five?

What's the point of having Raph and Hob go at it again after we'd seen that just last issue? A need to fill up space, that's what.

[CyberCubed]

I wonder if this was the issue Hob was originally intended to die in given Raph stabs him with the sai. So if Hob died here, they'd probably deal with heavy fallout of Raph killing him while Ray and the others would still be caged while figuring out what to do next. I prefer Hob kept alive so I'm glad that didn't happen, so we'll see where that goes.

I never really understood why Ray and Herman were so loyal to Hob, even going back to when Waltz was writing the series and did whatever he asked them to. I guess Herman views Hob as a father figure given he mutated him, and Ray just likes war violence I guess?

Pacing could have been better this issue, which is probably why it went by fast since so much of it was spent on Hob just being attacked and then running. Also anyone notice that poison frog character Jay feels like a replacement for Mondo Gecko? Given Mondo is absent since issue 100 he feels like he got effectively replaced with the blue frog character.

[TigerClaw]

The weasels still view Hobs as a father, So I wouldn't be surprise if he manipulated them to get him out.

The next issue seems to hint at that, but you never know.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by lonewarrior20

Lots of blood, fighting, hob in a cage, and I bet you their still going to complain cause it's not "my" turtles.

Originally Posted by Ninjinister

People are way too possessive of fiction.

Originally Posted by Jephael

https://c.tenor.com/pyGugHcm4XcAAAAC...the-office.gif

Couldn't have said it better myself!!!

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

Its either that, Or they just hate women, Particularly lizard women.

I'm not sure why any of you are willing to ignore what the actual criticisms are here, are you really so incapable of constructing a counter-argument that you have to pretend something else was said? Again, I'm not sure how many times this needs to be said, but the problem has not been been a lack of fighting or a lack of familiarity.

The problem has been been a lack of conflict in general, most issues of this run has been the characters just "hanging out" which is only recommended as single issue stories in between the conclusion of one arc and the start of another, it should not be the meat of the so-called plot because it kills the pacing. Seeing characters not really do anything of noticeable consequence is a waste of pages.

Secondly, the characters don't seem to behave all that consistently here. In general, these characters haven't been behaving according to what has been established about them, but rather according to what needs to happen in order for certain events to take place. The most noticeable example of this is how Bebop and Rocksteady behaved during the Battle of the Bands arc, in order to make that happen needed them to be arrogant enough to throw musicians off their stage to play themselves, but humble enough to admit a lack of skill at the end and leave. Even ignoring how other writers handled them, this is still pretty bad because it doesn't make any sense in context of this story alone. You should also remember that just because it's the most obvious with Bebop and Rocksteady, this writing also applies to most other characters in this run to a lesser extent, even characters created for this run.

And speaking of the characters created for this run, because they have this inept writing behind them it can somewhat hard to even understand them. Similar to Bebop and Rocksteady, Diamond went from being violent at the drop of a hat to being calm and reasonable for no clear reason, just so she could join the band. Then we have the weasels who have virtually no distinguishing traits between them, they have no clear goals or intentions either, both aspects just makes it hard to even care about them. Many of these characters seems to have been introduced purely because the writer wanted them around, not because they were going to have anything to contribute.

I will admit this issue and the last were a slight improvement because something actually seems to be happening but there are still problems here. This should have happened much earlier and from the looks of it, the writer already seems to wind it down for even more "downtime", which is just a horrible idea. The inept character writing is still clearly on display here, so why should I care about the action when the characters aren't even believable?

If you can't actually argue against any of this, then I'm just going to assume this run is a guilty pleasure for you (as in you notice the problems and still like it despite knowing it's bad), refuse to admit it and just go for strawmen and other weak arguments to shield it from criticism. Wheter you want to admit there are objective markers for a good story or not, you still have to be able to argue for your position without just dismissing what is being said.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by neatoman

If you can't actually argue against any of this, then I'm just going to assume this run is a guilty pleasure for you (as in you notice the problems and still like it despite knowing it's bad), refuse to admit it and just go for strawmen and other weak arguments to shield it from criticism. Wheter you want to admit there are objective markers for a good story or not, you still have to be able to argue for your position without just dismissing what is being said.

I'd put a ton of money down on most people who "like" the book basically just lying to themselves. They don't "really" like it, it's self-delusion due to emotional investment into the brand in general and the book specifically.

I kind of remember the feeling; I still watched WCW in 2000 through when they finally went out of business, and for whatever reason, at that time and in that moment I only barely recognized how terrible the stuff going on actually was. Basically, I was a fan, and I wanted them to do well, so I supported them. Not quite blindly, but... definitely more devoutly than what the product they were serving me deserved, by that point. Looking back at some of the things I smiled through my teeth at back then, and recognizing it now for what it really was all along, it's like "Jesus F'n Christ, what the f*ck was wrong with me for even defending this sh*t?" At the time, though? At the time I was outright defending sh*t like the Sting/Vampiro "Inferno" match and the KISS Demon with a straight face to people, with no irony at all, and I'm quite certain that those people must have thought I was quite insane. Those were definitely some completely wrong, flat-out f*cking terrible opinions I was pushing, back then.

So, I imagine that it's quite the same with most people Right Now with regards to this comic. Part of it is simply fear; if this comic goes away, all we have in the pipe for TMNT anytime soon (unless you buy overpriced collector's toys) is the upcoming Seth Rogen project, which promises to be lousy, and the mythical "Rise" movie which more or less ought to just be cancelled by this point since by the time it comes out most people will have entirely moved on from that failed iteration. The comic is the only thing pumping blood through the franchise's veins, right now, so for a lot of people - even though they won't admit it - their enthusiasm definitely comes from a place of, "Well if we lose this we don't have ANYTHING, so let's just force ourselves to find the good in what we have."

And maybe they do sincerely like SOME of it; however, if a "real" TMNT book were coming out instead, they'd certainly like that, too, and probably even like it more, since they're already predisposed to liking anything with a TMNT sticker on it to begin with. So it's not like they're purposely arguing against a better run coming along, they're simply choosing to defend the current run because "It's better than nothing and right now Nothing is the closest alternative."

It is pretty annoying that so many people insist on how "great" the run is despite the Very Real Problems that neatoman eloquently shines a light on, as if those things don't matter, or shouldn't - they should and They Do - but again, fanboy love is blind. Ten years from now, they'll most likely sober up and look back on the past two years and be like, "Jesus, I can't believe I ever put this stuff over so hard." Right now, they're more worried about the brand dying, so they're afraid to be honest, even with themselves. They probably do see a lot of those problems, but are more than willing to handwave them away so long as the book stays in print.

I mean, you see it in how vehemently some of them will rush to defend without actually saying anything of note about what's so "good". They'll often use terms like "refreshing change of pace" when this has been the book's status quo for almost two years, by now, so it's not That anymore; it's not a "change of pace", it IS the pace, and the pace (as neatoman points out) is mostly Neutral. A "refreshing change of pace", by this point, would be if Stuff Happened again that seemed important, or if characters stayed "on-model", behaviorally. Or sometimes they'll say, "Well, I like _____ character," when ____ character - again, as neatoman points out - generally is either out of character with previously-established behavior OR does nothing, depending. Just really flimsy reasoning as to why they "like" something. It's rare when anyone can string more than three sentences together about why run has been so "great", which is telling when any person who thinks it sucks can randomly pluck a novel's worth of grievances out of thin air without even trying.

Mark my words, if there were a good TMNT cartoon show currently airing, or a good movie upcoming that had a lot of positive hype behind it, the comic book would be getting a MUCH harsher reaction than it has been. When people have alternatives, they become a lot more critical and picky. But if you like burgers, and the only place within 100 miles that serves burgers is the place with the cook who has the leaky eye and scratches his nuts with his spatula... well, beggars can't be choosers. You'll choke it down and swear it tastes great, because the alternative is to just plain stop eating burgers altogether. And some people just plain need their fix.

Of course, you do sincerely have some people I won't bother to name who just have the absolute worst, sh*ttiest taste in absolutely everything, and so of course they sincerely love this, too. I imagine their kitchen is packed with nothing but White Claw and black licorice, and in their living room there's plastic on the furniture like some neurotic Italian family, and they've got that hideous red/orange shag carpeting from the 70s that some people's grandmothers still had all the way up through the early-90s. Wood-grain paneling on the walls; the whole place looks like someone's basement. And there's nothing but dubstep playing, 24/7.

That's the kind of person who sincerely loves this recent run of the TMNT comics. A person with a whole shelf full of Transformers movies and no discerning taste whatsoever. Someone who makes it a point to champion the absolute dirt-worst in Every Possible Thing.

Thankfully, that's actually not that many people. It's mostly the ones who lie to themselves. They're tolerable, perhaps one day even redeemable. A couple, though... yikes.

[TigerClaw]

Originally Posted by neatoman

If you can't actually argue against any of this, then I'm just going to assume this run is a guilty pleasure for you (as in you notice the problems and still like it despite knowing it's bad), refuse to admit it and just go for strawmen and other weak arguments to shield it from criticism. Wheter you want to admit there are objective markers for a good story or not, you still have to be able to argue for your position without just dismissing what is being said.

I would have to disagree, Because this run has been great, This comic series has been around since 2011 and the direction it went was a welcome one, We don't want another rinse and repeat in regards to TMNT.

I love the fact that this comic continues to evolve with the characters, If you don't like it, You could always read something more to your liking, Even though it will have same cliches.

[Jephael]

Okay, I'll be honest here. Yes it is a guilty pleasure to me, and yes they could do better with the current plot. There was a moment in the last issue with Raphael and Old Hob duking it out and I was like "Oh just kill off the one-eyed flea bag already!" and of course that didn't happen. I never liked Old Hob being leader of the Mutanimals and I really hope we see Kitty Pryde take over that group. Bebop and Rocksteady's forfeit was certainly out of left field, but hey maybe it's a sign they're beginning to grow a conscience. I dunno if you guys have been following along with the conversation here, but those of us who still like reading this series still have our nitpicks. Mona Lisa is so not what I was expecting. She's not the sweet, flirty, intelligent college girl turned mutant lizard from that 1990 episode of the original cartoon and it kinda bummed me out.

But hey them's the breaks. We're not the people working on this comic book, IDW is! They're the ones calling the shots, not us. They're the ones who dictate what gets to happen. We're just a bunch of fan-boys on a message board shooting the sh*t about it like how sports fans nitpick over a football game hundreds of miles away from their little frat house in College City, USA!

[Dangv]

Think about it this way.. In the last 10 or so issues (let's say the last year) what happened to the Ninja Turtles in this Ninja Turtles comic book?

Raph - Motorcycle race, fight with Hob.
Mikey - Got poisoned, started a podcast
Leo - ?
Don - ?

We're talking a year of releases where absolutely nothing of importance happened to the main characters. It was all about a band, future pink turtle, angry confused Jennika, angry confused Mona, mayor Sally...

This is all fine for one issue, maybe two if it leads to something, but nothing ever leads to anything anymore.

Not the motorcycle race, they just stopped and decided to be friends.
The fight with Tokka and Rahzar, they just stopped and decided to settle it with a battle of the bands.
The battle of the bands, they just stopped because they decided to give up before it even started.

There is no point to these stories. It's all fluff writing and filler stories. They should've used the majority of these stories for the Jennika comic or something because it has little to do with the turtles at this point.


Also:

Spoiler:

[mrmaczaps]

Still boring as all hell. This entire 20/21 issue arc could have been told in 6 issues, tops. Can we just reboot the Ongoing or retcon this furries porn already?

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by Dangv

Also:

https://i.imgur.com/GIrpqwX.png

Spoiler:

https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m...sxh6o1_500.gif

That's a little creepy. I'm not sure I've ever seen that effect in a comic book before. If it was a video game glitch, people would be mocking it online.

[ChosenOne]

Imagine knowing you're just keeping the actual writer of the comic's seat warm while he wraps up other projects, knowing you're not allowed to write anything that actually impacts the longterm status quo in any way, knowing that you have free rein to deliberately fill up your run with whatever weirdness you deem "normal" even though it has nothing to do with the comic's premise, and then going online and seeing random weirdos defending your - ahem - "work" to their very last breath, even though some of them only came on board with #101 and the promise of furries... Beyond surreal at this point.

[Dangv]

Originally Posted by oldmanwinters

That's a little creepy. I'm not sure I've ever seen that effect in a comic book before. If it was a video game glitch, people would be mocking it online.

It's just lazy. Takes 5 seconds to correct in Paint.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

I would have to disagree, Because this run has been great, This comic series has been around since 2011 and the direction it went was a welcome one, We don't want another rinse and repeat in regards to TMNT.

It's been around since 2011 and yet people who follow your posts closely have repeatedly pointed out that you never gave it the time of day UNTIL it became Zootopia Fanfiction.

So your defense rings entirely hollow and false. You only think it's "great" because Furrlough and Genus aren't in print anymore and this is the closest thing going. If the comic ever gets away from furries playing kissy-face and back to actual TMNT stuff, you'll probably abandon it again.

I got news for ya, pal; Sally Pride ain't gonna be whipping her tits out in this book anytime soon and there also aren't gonna be any explicit Donnie/Mona sex scenes, so if you're holding onto that hope you can go ahead and give it up.

The best thing anyone can honestly say about this run is that it's been "mostly harmless". There's definitely worse comic books out there in general. But it's still been a colossal waste of time.

[TigerClaw]

Saw Sophie Campbell link to this article that talks about her work on the TMNT comic, Its a good read.
https://www.tcj.com/metamorphosis-th...phie-campbell/

[Bahamut810]

I think that the big difference here is the writing style. In manga you have two large genres, Shonen and Shoujo. Shonen is much more action oriented, filled with comradery and more 'male' oriented themes (while all the main characters are badass). This is your Bleach, Naruto, My Hero Academia and Demon Slayer. Shoujo is much more emotion and relationship oriented, filled with emotion and relationships and even that ever elusive doki doki (I think the best description would be a moment where your heart flutters) and more 'female' oriented themes.

TMNT until 100- was Shonen. 100%. You had fights, betrayals and huge stakes as they fought for their place in the world.

Looking at Ms. Campbells history and what I have seen of the post 100 run, she is much more apt to write Shoujo. It seems like she is really good at it. I wont lie, if this run we are talking about was a different shoujo series? I would probably like it better. However, her scripts are very much not that shonen that we all were attracted to and desire.

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by Bahamut810

I think that the big difference here is the writing style. In manga you have two large genres, Shonen and Shoujo. Shonen is much more action oriented, filled with comradery and more 'male' oriented themes (while all the main characters are badass). This is your Bleach, Naruto, My Hero Academia and Demon Slayer. Shoujo is much more emotion and relationship oriented, filled with emotion and relationships and even that ever elusive doki doki (I think the best description would be a moment where your heart flutters) and more 'female' oriented themes.

TMNT until 100- was Shonen. 100%. You had fights, betrayals and huge stakes as they fought for their place in the world.

Looking at Ms. Campbells history and what I have seen of the post 100 run, she is much more apt to write Shoujo. It seems like she is really good at it. I wont lie, if this run we are talking about was a different shoujo series? I would probably like it better. However, her scripts are very much not that shonen that we all were attracted to and desire.

Sorry, but while you're technically right regarding her inclinations, I don't think that's it. At least not for me personally. I loved and still love Sailor Moon, which is firmly shojo, just as much as I loved and still love Dragon Ball, the most famous shonen manga/anime ever. And I don't think Campbell could write Sailor Moon either. She has no grasp of conflict, by which I mean the drive behind a story and not punch-kick-punch conflict, making her ideal for slice-of-life, one-off stuff but not for a longform run like this and especially not a longform run of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.