Pro Wrestling Discussion

[Leo656]

Another really good video. I feel that he kind of underrates the show as a whole, though. Those problems definitely had an impact, but A-to-Z it's still a fun show to watch. At the time I was getting every WCW PPV and having a couple of friends over to watch each month, and we had a blast watching Starrcade '97, issues and all.

Substitutions are an unfortunate reality of the business, although this show definitely had way more than usual. But I do think they did a reasonably good job in switching things up at the last minute. Getting Randy Savage instead of Konnan is about the biggest upgrade you can imagine, and added some energy into what was otherwise a throwaway match. My only issue with DDP vs. Hennig was that the previously-announced DDP vs. Flair match was advertised to be in a cage, and when DDP replaced Flair the cage stipulation very quietly went away without any advertisement or explanation. The match was good but that show could have used the spectacle of a cage match. As a huge Raven fan, I was annoyed at not getting to see him face Benoit, but in the end it did help build their storyline and the match they had a month later did turn out to be great, and since he had a legit medical reason for not wrestling that's a bit understandable.

The most notable non-match of course involved the Nash/Giant/Hall situation, which definitely could have been handled better. Now, take this however you will, but I did ask Nash about this when I met him, and he maintains that he spent two days in the hospital undergoing a battery of tests and provided full documentation of such to WCW. Now, to clarify something the video gets wrong, the report WCW got was not that "Nash had a heart attack", it was that he MAY have, a minor but important distinction. Given how Nash was around the same age that his father was when he passed away from a heart attack, and that Nash has always had a huge complex about that, it's understandable that he may have had a bit of a hypochondriac reaction to something that turned out to be less serious than he'd feared. He also points out that the medical bills he paid for being in the hospital and getting all the tests was WAY more than he would have been paid to appear at Starrcade, and that would have been a very expensive way to just try and get out of doing a job (one he ended up doing eventually anyway, a few detours aside). I know that "Nash just didn't wanna job" has become the Internet Legend, but frankly, I defer to Nash on this one. It's not like he didn't do much more prominent jobs before and after Starrcade '97, so that story just seems like typical Nash-Hating Fantasy.

It certainly could have been handled better, though; watching it live, after the Hall/Giant segment my friends and I were like, "Why didn't they just have a match?" Lacking any explanation whatsoever, I'm left to assume that Hall showed up "in no condition to perform" and thus the segment was just a way to kill time and give the fans SOMEthing. Not very satisfying, but better than nothing I guess.

Luger vs. Buff should have been better; it had a great build-up, but I agree that the match went way too long for what it was. A match between two mostly-brawling "muscle guys" shouldn't go over ten without some kind of smoke-and-mirrors or a more substantial angle to build it. And they had a good angle, the match just wasn't what a match that long should have been. I don't think it was bad but it definitely should have been shorter. Lex probably could have gone over, too, but I get Bischoff's logic (as argued towards the six-man tag) that for storytelling reasons the nWo needed to "stack the deck" throughout the night, and I do feel like that makes sense.

The Zbyszko vs. Bischoff match definitely wasn't very good, but I think it had its place as a novelty match. I think the only thing that really ruins it is the spot where Bischoff kicks Larry and the plate in his kickpad goes flying like a Frisbee. It turned what had been a serious (if sloppy) match and angle into a joke at the exact wrong moment. Nobody's fault, just a freak accident, but it did them no favors. Not announcing the official match result was also a sloppy move. You could infer it, but you shouldn't have to. Otherwise, I thought that Larry did good for being way less than part-time by that point and did a good job in leading Bischoff, a non-wrestler, through a reasonably-entertaining segment (probably the best "match" that Bischoff ever had in WCW or WWE). And they did a good job telling the story, and keeping Bret's involvement ambiguous throughout. It probably just went on a little too long for what it was, that's all.

The Hogan vs. Sting match... well, my perspective on that is gonna be different from most, given that I've always been a huge Hogan fan and was one of the few people who actually WANTED him to win, "what's best for business" be damned. In hindsight, sure, a clean Sting victory makes the most sense, but I was still something of a mark at that time and as a Hogan fan over anything else, my main concern was that Hogan's reputation as "The Greatest Of All Time" be maintained at any cost.

People get mad at Bischoff's justification for the screwy finish, noting that "Sting wasn't tan" or wasn't in the best of shape or whatever, but the thing is... I totally get it. The second he got in the ring and took his jacket off, my buddies and I were like, "...Dude, he shrunk." The tan wasn't a big deal, he was really covered up anyway and being a bit pale fit the "look" he had at the time, so that wasn't a concern to us, but he was visibly in the worst overall shape of his career right from the jump. Then the match started and almost 100% of his offense was dropkicks, to the point where it was sort of becoming a joke halfway through. To us watching, just as fans, this clearly wasn't "Sting In His Prime", and I don't know if he was just discouraged about the new finish or what, but he looked "off". His timing was good but he seemed to otherwise give a halfhearted effort, and by the time it was over, I was pissed because not only did Hogan lose, but it felt like Sting didn't deserve to actually win.

As to the match itself, I've heard a million people say that the only acceptable version of that match was to have Sting hit the ring, pummel Hogan mercilessly, hit his finish, Match Over. But I absolutely do not agree with that. Even with a Sting victory, that's not the way you do a main event match on PPV. For one, Hogan didn't need to look THAT weak, and it's also not fair to the paying audience (especially one that had to make do with a lot of other "bait-and-switch" type issues all night long). I thought as main event matches go, it was fine. Hogan led the match, and that pisses some people off, but the heel ALWAYS leads the match, and the story of Hogan being the "wily veteran" who was pulling out every trick to keep Sting at bay and hold onto his Title was well-executed. I think Hogan brought his A-game to that match, and Sting didn't, and I say that as a fan of both guys. Hogan wrestled that match like it was the biggest one since his WrestleMania match with Warrior; he came in fired up, hit all of his moves with gusto, and had a ton of energy. Sting barely did anything and moved at 3/4 speed. It stands out even more because Hogan had by this point developed a reputation for kind of dogging it in the main event and putting on a bad match if he wasn't in the mood to work, but he brought his best to Starrcade '97, and I think that it honestly stands up as one of his best overall matches. It isn't one of STING'S best overall matches, but again, that mostly seems to be on Sting. Hogan did his part, Sting didn't.

As for the finish... again, to us watching at home, it looked like 1. Hogan won, and 2. Hogan deserved to win, because Sting didn't show up with any fire. It kinda looks like Hogan has a handful of tights during the pin, and Sting kicks out at 3.01, so there's a BIT of mitigating factor there if you want to dispute the fall and protect Sting. Nick Patrick not doing the fast count, if indeed he was supposed to do so, definitely hurt the overall story of the match. But again, to us watching at home, Hogan got screwed. I know that isn't the story WCW was TRYING to tell with that match, but that's how it came off, and it wasn't because of the Bret thing so much as Sting just not putting in the performance that match deserved. Even if Sting had won clean, it would have felt weird, to me.

In any case, the right guy won to send the crowd home happy, and as much as people cry I do have to defer to Bischoff that sometimes that's the most important thing, more than how you get there. And I do agree with him that giving Hogan an "out" to dispute the decision was probably the right thing to do, as well, because Sting clearly wasn't at his best here and it wouldn't have been a great look to have him magically win after giving such a halfhearted effort. As it was, he got to walk out with the belt and he got the "official" win once and for all at SuperBrawl in February, anyway. And Hogan never DID cleanly beat Sting for his entire career, anyway, all through the TNA run. So in the grand scheme of things it isn't like Hogan came away looking better than Sting in any way, shape or form.

(Cont.)

[Leo656]

As a whole, I think it's a good show for what it was, and the only things that drag it down were the substitutions, most of which couldn't be helped. Definitely one of WCW's better shows that year, although to be honest it was hard to find a BAD WCW PPV that whole year, as '97 was undoubtedly one of their best. I think that to say, as the video implies, that it was "the beginning of the end" for WCW is an oversimplification. They may never have gotten that high again, but I think there are multiple factors that went into that, and that it had a lot more to it than just "Sting should've beaten Hogan clean". Hogan vs. Sting was the biggest angle they had, and once that story was over there was just an overall lack of excitement and nowhere really left to go. It's kinda like how people feel about the MCU, right now, since the whole "Endgame" storyline being over and multiple fan-favorite characters being retired; there's a pervading sense of "Where do we go from here?" If WCW had a compelling follow-up storyline to Hogan vs. Sting - Bret vs. Sting, for example, or had the nWo vs. nWo angle been handled better - they may have been able to keep the momentum for longer. But to say "WCW ultimately fizzled out because Sting vs. Hogan had a screwy finish"... that's pretty silly, to me. I don't think that holds water at all.

[Autbot_Benz]

Marty Caucus FKA Marty the Moth Martinez from Lucha Underground is making his AEW debut on dark this Tuesday. I hope they sign him. Marty was batshit crazy on Lucha Underground in a good way.

[Leo656]

WWE Referee Eddie Orengo is a pretty big deal right now after his tangle with Charlotte Flair... but check out what happened when *I* got my hands on him a few years back at the World-Famous Monster Factory!


Honestly, one of my better matches. He was great to work with. Never had the damn rematch, unfortunately. But it was a good'n.

[Autbot_Benz]

Watched the first two episodes of WWE's Most wanted treasures on A&E where wrestlers go and try to find hard to find memorablia for the wwe warehouse.

[ZariusTwo]

Jason Jordan promoted to head producer

https://www.pwinsider.com/article/14...apped.html?p=1

[Leo656]

My buddy/sometimes-boss Danny Cage blowing the whistle on some of the toxic sh*t going on behind the scenes at ROH, including a ton of sh*t about Joey Mercury and Will Ferrera:
https://411mania.com/wrestling/danny...-trash-humans/

Woof.

[ZariusTwo]

Drake Younger's been making a tinfoil tit of himself on local council Zoom meetings apparently

https://twitter.com/davidbix/status/1387259525040943104

[Autbot_Benz]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Drake Younger's been making a tinfoil tit of himself on local council Zoom meetings apparently

https://twitter.com/davidbix/status/1387259525040943104

ya he did it on WWE Company Time when he was at NXT too. The stupid Nob

[Autbot_Benz]

This Thursday is the debut of The Dark Side of The Ring Season 3. Its Brian Pillman part 1. Brian Pillman Part 2 will be on Saturday the 8th.

[Autbot_Benz]

Eva Marie is back and is coming to Raw. Wonder if she bothered to learn how to wrestle in all the time she was gone.

[ZariusTwo]

[Leo656]

I had a match on Sunday. I was hoping to have a video up by now but my wife's been dragging her ass.

Nothing fancy, a buddy of mine runs a school down near Philly and he asked me to come down and pitch in on a student show. Worked the first singles match on the card, simple sh*t, basically just took turns working the arm and then went home in about 6 minutes.

The one funny part was at the beginning, he backed me into a corner out of the lockup and slapped the sh*t outta me, got me right in the f*cking eye. I knew he didn't mean it, but still, you gotta do the thing, so when I got him in the corner for the Macho Man Jabs I laid the first one in HARD, split both his lip AND my knuckle open. He took a powder for a bit to the outside but then we got back on track.

Soon as I got to the back he came at me with a big hug like "DUDE, I totally didn't mean to come in so high on that slap, that's all my fault, man, I'm sorry," and I'm like "Eh, sh*t happens, man." Then he's like, "You give a helluva 'receipt', though," and I'm just like, "Yep." He's like "I thought the rest of them were gonna come in hot, too," and I'm like "Nah, one-for-one is fine, don't gotta get crazy out there."

Good sh*t, we might have a rematch in June, we'll see what shakes loose. I also did pretty good on merch considering it was a small crowd. There's a bunch of shows coming up so it was good for shaking the rust off. I'm not gonna be wrestling on all of them but it's better to be ready just in case, anyway. As of right now the plan is for me to do ringside commentary on the shows I'm not booked to wrestle on. Kind of a Roddy Piper deal; keep my character out there, get the angles over, stuff like that. Works for me.

[MikeandRaph87]

I only watch Roman Reigns segments on Smackdown, but I did not realize that Seth Rollins was moved over to Smackdown. I thought one was supposed to carry one show and the other carry the other show?Not to mention allow Roman to grow on his own. I mean they are my favorite pair after The Mega Powers, but I thought there was reason for the separation especially now that Dean left and rebranded himself.

Also, Wrestlemania Backlash? Is this is some pay-per-view apology because fans did not like Wrestlemania results? Could have done that with WM 30!

[Leo656]

I think they're just leaning fully into how Backlash has always more or less been a "Fallout From WrestleMania" type of show, very often packed with rematches from 'Mania and such. And ostensibly, with their various new media partnerships they're reaching a new, wider TV audience (again, "in theory"; the truth is nobody's watching jack sh*t right now, wrestling-wise.).

One could assume that it's a way to circumvent questions those people may have as to what specifically "Backlash" means. "Backlash from what, exactly?" "From the PPV we just had a month ago."

Makes sense from that angle, it's just kinda weird to have another PPV with "WrestleMania" in the title and I can't say I'm a fan of it.

[MikeandRaph87]

I am well aware of a pay-per-view titled 'Backlash', I just thought WWE was attempting to say, 'sorry here is a redo of matches that had a back lash'. It's what it implied to me. I know there was serious backlash about the Orton-Wyatt match for example.

[ZariusTwo]

Surprised they didn't just adapt the title "Wrestlemania Revenge" from their old tour branding

[ZariusTwo]

Peacock is diving into the sporting life for a pair of new series. The NBCUniversal streamer has ordered WWE Evil, from creator/exec producer John Cena, along with a multipart docuseries about legendary quarterback Joe Montana.

WWE Evil is described as a “psychological exposé” into the minds of the most diabolical antagonists in WWE history and their impact on mainstream culture. Wrestler-actor Cena is writing the project and also will narrate and exec produce.

https://deadline.com/2021/05/peacock...ry-1234753671/

[Autbot_Benz]

Now, it’s been made public via Voices of Wrestling that Starks actually fractured a bone in his neck and is out for three months. Thankfully surgery isn’t needed, and Starks is expected to remain a television character.

Ricky Starks out of Action for 3 months

https://www.webisjericho.com/aews-ri...EUvdk-yyQRi-DA

[ZariusTwo]

Word going around is that Bray Wyatt is currently dealing with mental health issues and was in no real shape to perform at Wrestlemania, which is why the match with Orton turned out the way it did. Vince was reportedly upset with this and Bray realised he needed to be away.