Who was more off base? FW or Rise?

[ToTheNines]

This just occurred to me, sorry if it’s been discussed.

I’m only bringing this up because I think it’s interesting that Rise seemed to be HATED here and the 87 show either had a lot of fans or the attitude is “oh yeah, that’s just the silly kids show. It’s whatever.”

Overall I’d say I prefer the FW show, for nostalgia purposes. If I ever rewatch Rise, I’ll probably just do the… ten(?) plot-relevant episodes and the movie.

But it’s funny to me that Rise is so disliked, even though they went out of their way to avoid most Fred Wolf-isms just as much as anything else. All while having real fight scenes, several Mirage references and a pretty emotional finale, if you were able to stick it out.

Meanwhile the 87 show is so much more accepted, but look at it as an adaption: Goodbye Nagi, goodbye Shen. No more murder at the core of the feud (Saki pulls a Bart Simpson tier prank on Yoshi that gets him banished with no questions asked?). White Baxter, Cajun Leatherhead, goofy Ratking. April is unrecognizable. And let’s not forget… the introduction of the rainbow masks.

I think the obvious answer here is growing up with the 87 show versus seeing Rise as cynical 30/40 somethings. But I was wondering if anyone had considered this.

[ToTheNines]

Oh, the one big thing I forgot to say: Rise Leo was basically just FW Raphael. They both took a character known for being a warrior and turned him into comic relief.

One of the biggest things I saw Rise haters complain about was their goofy Leonardo. He typically got on my nerves as well, but I thought the payoff in the movie was totally worth it.

However, 1987 had done the exact same thing with Raph, just without the reward of him growing into his true self down the road.

[Mad Dog McMutt]

Rise was way more off base than the FW cartoon. The original cartoon was fun, charming, wacky, had good background music, and great voice actors. Rise was way too wacky and all of the turtles basically had the same personality. They also all looked extremely ugly just like the Bay turtles. I have only watched the first 2 episodes of Rise so maybe I have a warped point of view. Rise seemed like an abomination filled with uncreative ideas to me.

[TheUltimateBum]

With the Fred Wolf cartoon, I can watch what could be considered the weakest episodes and still get a big kick out of 'em.

Rise... I tried one episode and I just couldn't continue. It wasn't for me.

[IndigoErth]

I mean, they're both way out there, but Rise goes further, or too far even, for me. Looking back, in FW I can at least still see a very tamed down version of what we know to be roughly the typical characterization through the franchise. Rise to me looks like a complete rewrite instead. FW's Raph's sarcasm actually works for a tamer version of his hot-headed aggression. (And playing really well in the Saturday Morning comic, imo. He's killing me with the facial expressions sometimes.) Rise? Just stamped out the fire all together.

Rise's characterization of Leo is still the nail in the coffin for me though. If they hadn't chosen to screw with that and the formula that makes the foundation of the franchise in the first place, I'd have probably at least had an easier time just going along with it similar to how I have the MM series... watchable, not disliked, but nothing I feel invested in. (And I very much miss feeling invested in the TMNT's shows!)


Sure, part of FW is the nostalgia and the fact that I had only JUST turned 5 when Mirage started and age 8 when the show premiered, so it would be a long time until I knew about that comic, so I didn't have that comparison. But Rise tried too hard and that also put me off. Whereas FW, as goofy as it is (and I know I'm repeating myself), plays it straight as if any funny or absurd stuff going on is completely normal in their world, which I find entertaining today. Literally ANYTHING can explode in that world with small effort, and no one bats an eye. That on top of the errors and whatnot I'd have missed as a kid... there's just some kind of charm to it.

Rise, however, reminds me more of someone's hyperactive 6-year-old who jumps around weird trying to get attention, then stops and waits for you to laugh at their antics. You try too hard to attempt to MAKE me find you funny. One of those overused laugh sound bites used on YouTube/Tiktok/etc videos, to try to tell you that something is supposed to be funny, would be right at home edited into Rise.

It didn't help that if they really wanted to do a character progression, esp with Leo, they spent far too much time just bulls***ing and not focusing on that. They made him such an utter asshat, even up through the first half hour of the movie, that by the time he had to do this grand near sacrifice to save his family and the world... I didn't care at all. Some people have said they cried. I felt nothing. About the guy who has always been my fave in everything else, and much beloved fictional character in general, which was bizarre to me. But what can I say, he was such an ass for SO long that they never gave me reason to give a damn and feel invested.


Terrible to say, but I also don't like much of the subset of new Tiktok-generation fans it brought in when it suddenly showed up on that platform. (LATE, I might add, so they whine that it was already over when they finally took notice.) Off base enough it brought in some who didn't mesh well. Too many showed up at a 'house' already occupied and tried to tell existing fans what's what. The small number of keepers who dove in and have embraced much of the franchise are fine, glad to have them, but as for the rest of them, the "I will die on the Rise hill!" types who aren't interested in anything outside of Rise... I keep waiting for them to get bored and go find a "new hyperfixation" to play dolls with.

[ToTheNines]

Good post, Indi. I will disagree about OT Raphael. I think you REALLY have to squint and cling on to a few choice examples to say he fits in at all with “canon Raph”. He was always just a happy-go-lucky jokester. Even in the Red Sky era when they were visually trying to evoke the 1990 movie, they never had Raphael make any waves within the team.

I guess the main point I’m trying to get across is that it’s funny to me that Rise gets so much hate, but it will go down in history as a ~2 year blip that barely spawned any other media. Whereas the FW show did way more damage to the franchise, that still continues today. If it weren’t for the 1990 movie being what it was, who knows where it’d be?

And I say this as someone who does have love for the ‘87 show and does appreciate its charm.

EDIT: And yes, agreed on the ignorant/annoying new fans. The TMNT subreddit is constantly making my eyes roll. But looking around the cobwebs in most of these threads, I kinda wish some of them would post here lol.

[TheUltimateBum]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Even in the Red Sky era when they were visually trying to evoke the 1990 movie, they never had Raphael make any waves within the team.

Actually, they did. In the first HAVOC episode, he is basically tired of the humans, and he and Donatello pretty much leave Leonardo and Michelangelo after an argument. And in Turtle Trek, Raphael is incredibly conflictive and gets angry quite constantly, to the point where he almost gets into a fight with Leonardo.

[ToTheNines]

Oh, cool. It’s been a decade or more since I’ve watched all of Red Sky. Will probably marathon all 10 seasons once my kid is a little older.

[TheUltimateBum]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Oh, cool. It’s been a decade or more since I’ve watched all of Red Sky. Will probably marathon all 10 seasons once my kid is a little older.

Yeah, in season eight there was quite a bit of conflict with the Turtles, and David Wise had mixed feelings about it.

On the one hand, he liked the fact that it was heading into a darker direction, but on the other... he felt the Turtles arguing got a bit excessive (if you watch those episodes, you'll notice that Raphael and Donatello are basically the stirrers and start arguing with Leonardo, and Michelangelo oddly enough ends up being the voice of reason).

Season 8 has always been my favorite season because I thought they were heading on the right track, with the Turtles basically becoming targets of the press, and both the smearing from Burne and Shredder's elusiveness actually getting to them to the point where they're not the chipper boys of previous seasons (though there's still elements of humor at times). But then season 9 basically goes a whole different route and basically hands over the Burne "smear campaign" plot to Dregg, so it feels like 8 was setting a direction that never happened (I didn't mind Carter even if he's a bit too vanilla once he comes out of his rebel phase, and Dregg I enjoyed in season 10, but you can tell that they feel a bit tacked on, especially in season 9).

[IndigoErth]

If you can get the Freevee streaming app, it should have the FW series on there 24/7.

**Granted it's been a while since I've checked, but I put it on via the Roku Channel every night and I THINK it's the same feed.



I agree that FW Raph isn't that much actually alike Mirage or 1990 Raph, but just more-so (imo) find leaning on the sarcasm a natural choice for toning down a hot headed, temperamental character. He's not going to burn you alive with his attitude, but you might still get cut with a sharp comment instead... if you're a bad guy...or Mikey.

Doesn't get into it with Leo much... but there's that one ep, I wish I could remember which one it is and what's actually said, but in response to something Leo has said to him, with a bit of attitude himself, Raph hits him back pronouncing Leo's name sarcastic-like ("LEE-ON-ARDO" but compact it), and cracks me up every time. Wish I knew if that was in the direction or if Rob just adlibbed that tone. LOL

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

The TMNT subreddit is constantly making my eyes roll.

Right now I'm getting esp tired of the people on there who repeatedly post low effort survey-like questions (one in particular who spams many subs with the same BS) and then don't engage at all to actually make it a conversation, nor in most cases do they share their own thoughts on the thing they asked. Everyone just pointlessly throwing a reply into the void on things that weren't worth the effort to respond do. (And primarily from the younger Rise fan types, who I guess didn't learn from social media how to have conversations...to make it relevant to this thread and not just me being an unrelated old grouch. lol)

Forums are so much better to actually discuss stuff, some of them that are serious about TMNT really ought to join up.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I have a theory that alot of FW fans (myself not included) think its "cool" to hate on Rise in the same way that FW has been hated on by others.

They want a tmnt punching bag of their own so they can say "Our cartoon is not the dumb one like you 2k3/comic fans think, its THAT cartoon we should be making fun of together!"

And for the question of the thread, yes, FW is way more off base than Rise. If FW had been released today in some alternate universe where Rise in the 1980s was turtlemania, then FW would've ripped to shreds by fans.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Rise was way more off base. Even Fred Wolf kept many of the core elements. This show made Raphael the leader, made everyone have basically the same personality, really didn't have a proper Spinter/Shredder rivalry (which should be the core of any TMNT version), and was so liberal with the source material that they changed things that really shouldn't be changed or had no good reason to change, like the turtles' weapons or Apri being black.

Say what you want about Fred Wolf, but it has a lot more in common with the TMNT multiverse compared to Rise, which tried ever so hard to be it's own unique thing, instead of just being Ninja Turtles. It's okay to be unique, but not when you come into it wanting to change things for the sake of "leaving your mark" on the franchise. It's a matter of rearranging the same box of legos, compared to using Mega Blocks. Rise used Mega Blocks.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

I have a theory that alot of FW fans (myself not included) think its "cool" to hate on Rise in the same way that FW has been hated on by others.

They want a tmnt punching bag of their own so they can say "Our cartoon is not the dumb one like you 2k3/comic fans think, its THAT cartoon we should be making fun of together!"

And for the question of the thread, yes, FW is way more off base than Rise. If FW had been released today in some alternate universe where Rise in the 1980s was turtlemania, then FW would've ripped to shreds by fans.

Interesting, I hadn’t considered that angle.

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

Spinter/Shredder rivalry (which should be the core of any TMNT version)

That has become a franchise staple and done very well, but it wasn’t there in Mirage either.

Yoshi (his own character) only ever had a rivalry with Nagi. Saki only ever interacted with him long enough to kill him.

And Splinter only saw him briefly that night and then never again until very briefly in “Silent Partner”. Shredder never had a rivalry with anyone except Leo.

The FW show completely rearranged all of that. Then it wasn’t until 1990 that the Splinter/Shredder feud was made a little more personal, until it was really ramped up in 4kids, IDW and the 2012 show.

Say what you want about Fred Wolf, but it has a lot more in common with the TMNT multiverse compared to Rise.

But how? No Klunk, no Northampton, no Shen, no Casey/Raph friendship, almost zero real combat, April is an uncaring asshole, Raph is perfectly well adjusted, no TCRI, Triceratons were an afterthought, no Fugitoid. I could go on.

[Coola Yagami]

I am surprised Fugitoid got an action figure and never made it in the cartoon. Even stranger that he was an enemy in TMNT III Manhattan Project?

[bjaxx87]

I guess FW was the closest they could get to the source material back in the late 80s/early 90s - at least if they wanted to create a kids show. Even the way it was, FW caused parents to rally up and protest. The show got censored and even renamed (Hero Turtles) in Europe. So they just had make it much more lighthearted and change a lot of the Mirage formula.

I grew up with the FW show, loved it as a kid and appreciate it for what it was, but nowadays I don't have a lot of interest in watching it anymore, tbh. I think that nowadays Rise really is the better TMNT show and agree that it's closer to the essence. (I never hated Rise, though, I actually had a lot of fun with it.)

I'd always prefer to rewatch 2K3, though.

[ZariusTwo]

Fred Wolf was so off-base it became on-base and the partial blueprint for a lot of the shows now

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

I have a theory that alot of FW fans (myself not included) think its "cool" to hate on Rise in the same way that FW has been hated on by others.

I don't see much real premise for the position that hate towards "Rise" is a function of social onboarding rather than authenticity, dude.

-Hate for the Fred Wolf show is elitist posturing for the most part given that show ran for a decade and supported maybe the most successful toyline of all time.
-Hate for Rise seems fairly authentic given that show barely scratched out two seasons and was met with general disdain from the get go.

One show is clearly authentic and had a mass fanbase. The other show is clearly derivative and had mass rejection. And so it's safe to conclude that the minority who "hate on" Fred Wolf are posturing more often than not whereas the majority who "hate on" Rise feel authentic disdain for that show.

[The Great Saiyaman]

In my opinion, the 1987 series did a lot of things right. And if both Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird were open to their suggestions, that is really saying something here.

- The colored masks.
Looks wise the Turtles were just carbon copies of each other and in the Mirage Comics especially, you'd have to look at what weapons were in their hands, or if they had diagonal straps across their shoulders to really see who was who. The fact that they all had red masks also didn't help matters. The different colored masks was something that network brought forth and both Eastman and Laird adopted it, the later Mirage comics also had the colored masks.

- Bebop and Rocksteady
Must I say more? Those two again were suggestions from the network and turned out to be iconic characters, which have since appeared in almost all versions of the franchise.

- Hamato Yoshi and Splinter are the same person.
Yeah, although it was brought back in the 1990 movie and the 2003 series, of Splinter being Yoshi's pet rat who learned Ninjutsu by observing his master practicing, doesn't make a lot of sense. (Although it must be said, both the 2014 live action and "Mutant Mayhem" go a worse way, but let's not talk about that.) The fact that both the 2012 series and "Rise" brought it back is also a testament to that decision being the right one. Heck, look at the story of the IDW series Splinter.

So, yeah, the 1987 series took a radical turn from the source material, but most of the things they came up with, not only worked but influenced even the source material itself.

[Roseangelo]

Fred Wolf created the base.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Fred Wolf was so off-base it became on-base and the partial blueprint for a lot of the shows now

Yeah that’s what I’m getting at. To hate on Rise from a purist standpoint is so funny, because it’s hardly going to leave a footprint on the franchise. Whereas, here we are almost 40 years later and FW is still part of the DNA.

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

Fred Wolf created the base.

Nice wordplay