The "I never thought they/this would become as successful as they/it did" thread

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

Saber Rider and the Star Sheriffs was another 1987 science fiction-Western attempt.

I have seen only some episodes on the Youtube some years ago.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Leo656

To the actual topic, and since I know there's a lot of fans of it here, I must confess that I never expected Pokemon to explode like it did, nor to still be running along today as strong as it is. It doesn't bother me, I just never got into it. It seemed to me in 1997 like something kids might get bored with quickly, but I guess since there's a strong cooperative and interactive component it makes it easy to keep fresh for each new group of young kids that comes along. I gotta say, for something I'm not at all into, I admire the longevity of it. That one definitely surprised me.

Well those are good points and for me it's hard to say since I was part of the first generation of Pokémon fans. I was in 3rd grade or so when Pokémon got here and it was HUGE. Gen II was also pretty big, but then people from my generation moved on from it. Probably because by the time Gen III came along people born in 1990 were already entering their teens, and Pokémon was now officially "for kids" and you'd be seen as a weirdo if you still played it and watched the anime.

I remember a lot of people being surprised that Pokémon was still going strong after 3 generations. Not that I thought Pokémon would ever die, but I never expected for there to eventually be like 700-800 different Pokémon one day and the franchise becoming the biggest Nintendo cashcow after Mario. I grew up viewing Zelda as the number 2 Nintendo property after Mario, but clearly Pokémon overtook its spot. It indeed wasn't just a mere fad. Pokémon has the advantage of being a very cyclical/generational thing. Kids usually grow up playing it for a gen or two and then outgrow it and another generation of kids will get into the latest gen, and thus a new generation of fans is born.

[Wesley]

I didn’t think there would be another American Sonic cartoon after Sonic Underground, but I was really surprised when Sonic Boom came out in 2015 and lasted for two seasons (I’ve only watched season 1, though).

I was also surprised that Zig and Zag from the Den made a comeback with a new cartoon in 2016.

[snake]

Pokemon is bigger than Mario. I will defend that to my grave.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by snake

Pokemon is bigger than Mario. I will defend that to my grave.

I mean, I dunno. As of today, have the total sales of Pokémon games surpassed those of Mario yet? I mean, spin-offs such as Mario Kart sell like hot-cakes as well. And I assume the likes of Mario Golf, Tennis and Party sell very well too. Why else would Nintendo keep making such games if that wasn't the case? Plus, Mario's been around for longer and games like the NES SMB games, SMW and Mario 64 also sold a ton of copies and still sell a lot today on the Virtual Console and such. So maybe that's why Pokémon hasn't caught up to Mario in number of total sales yet?

Lemme check...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ame_franchises

Hmm, Pokémon is not THAT FAR from the core Mario games in terms of sales. But overall Mario has sold a lot more copies due to all of its spin-off series. Also, wow, Mario Party outsells BOTH Mario Golf and Mario Tennis?!

Well, I'd say Mario is the Mickey Mouse of video game characters. Everyone in the world knows him. As big as Pokémon is, I'd say less grandmas know of it than of Mario. Plus, a lot of people seem to think Pokémon was over around gen 3 and only came back with Pokémon Go or something. A lot of people will be surprised if you tell them that the Pokémon anime is still on-going, while I think pretty much everyone knows Mario is still alive and well.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by Prowler

Well those are good points and for me it's hard to say since I was part of the first generation of Pokémon fans. I was in 3rd grade or so when Pokémon got here and it was HUGE. Gen II was also pretty big, but then people from my generation moved on from it. Probably because by the time Gen III came along people born in 1990 were already entering their teens, and Pokémon was now officially "for kids" and you'd be seen as a weirdo if you still played it and watched the anime.

I imagine a lot of fans dropped off around generation 3, not only because they got older, but generation 3 was a reboot of the franchise of sorts.

You could no longer trade pokemon from Red, Blue, Yellow, Gold, Silver or Crystal into the GameBoy Advance games which was a huge deal back in the day.

The anime under-went a huge change with Misty and Brock no longer being Ash's main travelling companions.

The Pokemon games themselves were of a different style from generation 3 onwards in terms of pokemon designs, plot, tone etc., since Satoshi Tajiri (the creator of the first two gens) was no longer the main director.

Of course, it wasn't just one or two of these things, but a whole slew of factors which resulted in Pokemon becoming "not cool" and "for babies", post-2003.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

I imagine a lot of fans dropped off around generation 3, not only because they got older, but generation 3 was a reboot of the franchise of sorts.

You could no longer trade pokemon from Red, Blue, Yellow, Gold, Silver or Crystal into the GameBoy Advance games which was a huge deal back in the day.

The anime under-went a huge change with Misty and Brock no longer being Ash's main travelling companions.

The Pokemon games themselves were of a different style from generation 3 onwards in terms of pokemon designs, plot, tone etc., since Satoshi Tajiri (the creator of the first two gens) was no longer the main director.

Of course, it wasn't just one or two of these things, but a whole slew of factors which resulted in Pokemon becoming "not cool" and "for babies", post-2003.

I see. Thanks for the explanation.

I didn't play Gen at the time. I played the ORAS remake in 2016-2017 which I really loved, although admittedly it took me a while to really get into the game. Like 3 gyms or so in. I grew up playing RBY and then played Crystal several years later. So it was quite a change. I can see why a lot of the first couple of gens fans didn't take it too well to it.

Pretty much everyone I know from my generation irl swears by the first couple of Pokémon generations only and doesn't care about the rest of the series at all. Hell, some didn't even bother with Gen 2. For a lot of people there's only 151 Pokémon.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by Prowler

Pretty much everyone I know from my generation irl swears by the first couple of Pokémon generations only and doesn't care about the rest of the series at all. Hell, some didn't even bother with Gen 2. For a lot of people there's only 151 Pokémon.

While I love all generations, gens 1 and 2 are my favourite to this day.

Generation 2 admittedly admittedly feels like Kanto 2.0 to me, since it is so tonally similar and pretty much just a direct sequel.

I absolutely love how in generation 2, you can send Pokemon back into the past generation, a feature which has never seen the light of day since.

I have seen videos of people bypassing the restriction of trading Johto Pokemon into Red, Blue and Yellow via glitches and the end result is a Missingno.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

While I love all generations, gens 1 and 2 are my favourite to this day.

Generation 2 admittedly admittedly feels like Kanto 2.0 to me, since it is so tonally similar and pretty much just a direct sequel.

I absolutely love how in generation 2, you can send Pokemon back into the past generation, a feature which has never seen the light of day since.

I have seen videos of people bypassing the restriction of trading Johto Pokemon into Red, Blue and Yellow via glitches and the end result is a Missingno.

Plus the game was ****ing huge, especially for its time. It's like RBY was awesome, but GSC felt really epic.

I like ORAS fine, but it has its own flaws. I don't agree with IGN's classic "TOO MUCH WATER~!" complaint, but it was annoying how moves like "Dive" and "Waterfall" were forced upon you. Especially near the end of the game, being forced to use an HM to climb the waterfall that took you to the Pokémon League. I had to catch a Tentacool and raise it on purpose just to have a Pokémon with Surf, Waterfall and Dive. Forced HMs have always been the most annoying things in Pokémon games, imo.

Gen I had its faults too, but the fact it was the very first gen and all of the nostalgia surrounding it I find it easy to overlook said flaws. But man, were psychics a bitch to fight against.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by Prowler

Plus the game was ****ing huge, especially for its time. It's like RBY was awesome, but GSC felt really epic..

You know a Pokemon game is awesome when it has not one, but two expansive regions full of stuff to explore.

Originally Posted by Prowler

I like ORAS fine, but it has its own flaws. I don't agree with IGN's classic "TOO MUCH WATER~!" complaint, but it was annoying how moves like "Dive" and "Waterfall" were forced upon you. Especially near the end of the game, being forced to use an HM to climb the waterfall that took you to the Pokémon League. I had to catch a Tentacool and raise it on purpose just to have a Pokémon with Surf, Waterfall and Dive. Forced HMs have always been the most annoying things in Pokémon games, imo.

Hoenn was the tropical Island, before Alola made it cool.

And agreed about HM users always being a thorn for anyone who wants to make a proper team of 6 Pokemon, and doesn't want to constantly switch an HM Slave in and out of the PC.

Originally Posted by Prowler

Gen I had its faults too, but the fact it was the very first gen and all of the nostalgia surrounding it I find it easy to overlook said flaws. But man, were psychics a bitch to fight against.

Psychics were OP as all living hell, but people sometimes forget how Normal types were also so dominant back then despite Rattata and Pidgey being the butt of jokes.

Tauros, Snorlax and Chansey were absolute titans in the first generation, and I would argue better than all psychic types outside of Mew/Mewtwo.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Hoenn was the tropical Island, before Alola made it cool.

And agreed about HM users always being a thorn for anyone who wants to make a proper team of 6 Pokemon, and doesn't want to constantly switch an HM Slave in and out of the PC.



Psychics were OP as all living hell, but people sometimes forget how Normal types were also so dominant back then despite Rattata and Pidgey being the butt of jokes.

Tauros, Snorlax and Chansey were absolute titans in the first generation, and I would argue better than all psychic types outside of Mew/Mewtwo.

I don't think Hoenn had as much water as people and IGN remember it having. I only recall having to swim a lot near in the latter end of the game.

People joke about Rattata and Pidgey? They both evolved into pretty strong pokémon. Pidgeot was a great Pokémon and Raticate was ab east. Boy how I feared his Hyper Fang attack.

I hated facing trainers with Pidgeys/raticates/etc. because they always would strike me with sand-attacks, gusts, hyper fangs and ofc quick attacks.

Tauros and Snorlax were OP as hell. Who didn't have Snorlax in their party?

Mewtwo was caught only after you beat the Pokémon League, so it didn't really matter by then.

[Redeemer]

Originally Posted by Leo656

You could, y'know, bother looking it up, but whatever.

60-80% of the market for boys toys between 1984 and 1986, depending on whose numbers you go by (truth is probably in the median), and the highest-rated (meaning most-watched) TV show of the mid-1980s. But sure. They didn't sell any product. It wasn't "that popular".

If you weren't there, weren't a boy, or weren't paying attention, then sure, you wouldn't know. FACT: Toys R Us used to devote entire aisles to housing just He-Man toys at many of their stores. The brand was SO popular that they had in-store appearances of in-costume MOTU characters as a way to get even more people into the stores (Sound familiar? It should, as TMNT were used for in-store appearances to the same effect many years later... as a sign of the brand's popularity). And they didn't give the brand that much real estate on the shelves just in 1986, but for the 2002 re-launch, as well (although that only lasted the first month of the relaunch, as it was only planned for the launch itself, whereas it was simply the regular order of things in 1986). You don't just make an entire aisle of your store "The ______ Aisle" throughout the entire country and much of the civilized world, and keep it that way for several YEARS, unless the toys f*cking sell a lot of product. Hooooly SH*T. Wow.

Facts are Facts, it is what it is. Like the fact that this conversation is happening on a TMNT board means there's a confirmation bias issue whether anyone cares to admit it or not. You want your favorite thing to "win" the conversation, so any data that doesn't correlate to what you prefer to accept is dismissed. But the truth is The Truth whether it fits what you want to hear or not.

Not only was the MOTU brand of comparable popularity to the TMNT brand, for one (albeit brief) moment, it was objectively probably more popular in that brief moment. I'm Very Sorry if that upsets you. Again, it was for a year at most, so Your Brand still "wins" by the criteria you've chosen to apply for overall "success". But ignoring easily-researched and provable facts just makes a person look ignorant. MOTU absolutely WAS as popular, and for "5 minutes", possibly bigger. This shouldn't even be up for debate when it's so easy to look up. I haven't been there for years, but he-man.org used to host many, many contemporary news articles that were published in multiple magazines and newspapers between 1982 and 1988, discussing the overwhelming popularity of the MOTU brand (as well as openly wondering if it could ever run out of steam - "Spoiler", it did), and I assume they probably still do. Anyone interested in extending the conversation beyond "Nuh uh!" could easily do their own research if they wanted.

Am I expecting that? No. I absolutely don't expect anyone here to actually research anything that could possibly disprove their pre-existing opinions on a subject they know little about. The next time would be the first time, and I know the temperature of this place by now.

"I don't know, man. Doesn't sound right to me." Alright, then just go and read.

Here. I jumped on Google for two seconds and immediately found a news article from 1984 that disproves every single point in your post, from the age group it was popular with (you say "older kids", facts say 4-9 year olds) to the idea that the brand "lacked universal appeal" (30% of He-Man's audience was GIRLS, and parents loved it too).

https://www.nytimes.com/1984/12/18/n...oy-market.html

The equivalent of 1.7 dolls sold for every child in America. Over $1 billion in revenue within the first two years. Toys selling out within a single day of hitting store shelves. A cartoon that aired in 37 countries and was the highest-rated in the United States, airing on over 160 stations during its peak. "No, it really wasn't a big deal. Certainly not very popular at all." Only it was. It was a huge deal. Sorry you missed it. Sincerely.

That's one article. I'm sure there are dozens. Have fun. I'm sure it's all very boring, but again, facts are what they are. And lies are vulgar.

Knowledge Is Power, folks.

No offense Leo but it seems that you are get a little angry I am glad you are not though but you are being presumptuous of me. I actually did try to find market share data of toy sales for TMNT and MOTU via google to try and get a good indicator, but unfortunately I was not able to find any data to compare market share between the two.
The article you provided only speaks of product sales for He-man and not TMNT so there is nothing we can compare it too.
The only thing I found that we can really compare are the movies that each franchise put out.
He-man put out movie
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies...heuniverse.htm
TMNT movie by comparison
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies...njaturtles.htm

This why I am assuming that TMNT had a higher peak, bc they were more successful in other forms of media such as Movies.
I have not been able to find data to compare toy sales, but MOTU had an impressive following in its peak, but need to find toy sales numbers for tmnt to compare with the article you already provided.

But I have to ask even if MOTU had more toy sales or a bigger market share do you think it was bigger than TMNT given how much more success tmnt had outside of toy sales such as comics, movies, video games?
And yes there is not a doubt I am bias
But I will admit when I am wrong. Like I said MOTU lack of success outside of the toy line and cartoon makes me unable to believe it was more popular than TMNT given TMNT had video game franchise success and a trilogy.

Edit: The only thing I could find was this wiki entry.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenag..._Ninja_Turtles
It indicates that they sold $350 million in 94, I am assuming that 94 is the peak year. My only question is that is that toy sales or playmate sales? or total merchandies? It does go on to say that TMNT had the most merchandise sales up until that point total, but that would be due to longevity success as you indicated and not peak like I was questioning.

[Redeemer]

Originally Posted by Prowler

I mean, I dunno. As of today, have the total sales of Pokémon games surpassed those of Mario yet? I mean, spin-offs such as Mario Kart sell like hot-cakes as well. And I assume the likes of Mario Golf, Tennis and Party sell very well too. Why else would Nintendo keep making such games if that wasn't the case? Plus, Mario's been around for longer and games like the NES SMB games, SMW and Mario 64 also sold a ton of copies and still sell a lot today on the Virtual Console and such. So maybe that's why Pokémon hasn't caught up to Mario in number of total sales yet?

Lemme check...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ame_franchises

Hmm, Pokémon is not THAT FAR from the core Mario games in terms of sales. But overall Mario has sold a lot more copies due to all of its spin-off series. Also, wow, Mario Party outsells BOTH Mario Golf and Mario Tennis?!

Well, I'd say Mario is the Mickey Mouse of video game characters. Everyone in the world knows him. As big as Pokémon is, I'd say less grandmas know of it than of Mario. Plus, a lot of people seem to think Pokémon was over around gen 3 and only came back with Pokémon Go or something. A lot of people will be surprised if you tell them that the Pokémon anime is still on-going, while I think pretty much everyone knows Mario is still alive and well.

Look up total revenue generated by Pokemon cards and it might tip the scales
Everyone bought and traded Pokemon cards.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Redeemer

Look up total revenue generated by Pokemon cards and it might tip the scales
Everyone bought and traded Pokemon cards.

Lemme see what I can find...

https://www.alphr.com/life-culture/1...-game-is-still

Holy ****.

Tbh, I had no idea Pokémon cards were so popular. I recall me and other kids at the time buying them for a couple of years, but we didn't like much the card game per se. MTG was way better. It seemed like we mostly used Pokémon cards for collection purposes, and not to actually play with them. MTG and Yu-Gi_oh were preferred card games for actual playing with.

[turtle1237]

Originally Posted by Prowler

Plus the game was ****ing huge, especially for its time. It's like RBY was awesome, but GSC felt really epic.

I like ORAS fine, but it has its own flaws. I don't agree with IGN's classic "TOO MUCH WATER~!" complaint, but it was annoying how moves like "Dive" and "Waterfall" were forced upon you. Especially near the end of the game, being forced to use an HM to climb the waterfall that took you to the Pokémon League. I had to catch a Tentacool and raise it on purpose just to have a Pokémon with Surf, Waterfall and Dive. Forced HMs have always been the most annoying things in Pokémon games, imo.

Gen I had its faults too, but the fact it was the very first gen and all of the nostalgia surrounding it I find it easy to overlook said flaws. But man, were psychics a bitch to fight against.

But odds are that you were going to have a water type with at least 1 of the moves. Waterfall and surf are good moves. I really think the HM's went out of hand in gen 4. There you had defog(To deal with Fog) Rock climb(So you can climb mountains?) In all you had 8 HM's you needed on hand to get though gen 4.

[Leo656]

Redeemer: I'm fine. I just hate having to play "Encyclopedia".

As I said before, there are too many variables to make a 1:1 comparison between the two franchises, because after 1985/86 MOTU had way too much competition from brands like Thundercats, G.I. Joe, Transformers, Real Ghostbusters, etc. Its peak years were when it was "running unopposed", so to speak. Likewise, TMNT was "running unopposed" for most of its peak years.

Regardless, both franchises were very huge and that's why we still see them discussed today.

I just get a little annoyed when things which are easily verified are held in dispute, that's all. I do remember that He-Man.org used to archive as many old articles about MOTU as they could find, so that's where I would look if a person wanted more info.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Actually, I don't think He-Man was ever really "bigger/as big" as TMNT at any point. Did thet have merchandise? Sure, but how much of it actually ever SOLD? Because I only remember seeing very little of it anywhere, and a lot of what was out there just sort of sat on shelves. It was never quite the huge phenomenon as TMNT, in spite of having many of the same media outlets. It just didn't have the same relatable appeal, and was more geared toward older kids, who were already outgrowing much of the type of merchandise it had anyway. And I say this as a fan of both, as well as having lived through (ie, being old enough to remember) BOTH frachises' entire runs. Among a certain subset of kids (boys 8-10), He-Man was huge, for about a year or so. But NEVER as huge as TMNT, which was so pervasive you couldn't walk into a store anywhere without seeing or tripping over something TMNT. Or hearing a kid ask for something TMNT. He-Man just didn't get the same exposure, in spite of having everything from lunchboxes to underwear.

Here is a list

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...dia_franchises

[turtle1237]

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

Here is a list

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...dia_franchises

Take that Mario. Bow down before the power of Pokémon. There number 1.

[Redeemer]

Originally Posted by Prowler

Lemme see what I can find...

https://www.alphr.com/life-culture/1...-game-is-still

Holy ****.

Tbh, I had no idea Pokémon cards were so popular. I recall me and other kids at the time buying them for a couple of years, but we didn't like much the card game per se. MTG was way better. It seemed like we mostly used Pokémon cards for collection purposes, and not to actually play with them. MTG and Yu-Gi_oh were preferred card games for actual playing with.

Imagine how many packs were sold in its most popular years

And I was in the same camp I only collected pokemon cards I never played, I don't think anyone really knew how to play the game actually
I played a lot of yugioh back in the day

Originally Posted by Leo656

Redeemer: I'm fine. I just hate having to play "Encyclopedia".

As I said before, there are too many variables to make a 1:1 comparison between the two franchises, because after 1985/86 MOTU had way too much competition from brands like Thundercats, G.I. Joe, Transformers, Real Ghostbusters, etc. Its peak years were when it was "running unopposed", so to speak. Likewise, TMNT was "running unopposed" for most of its peak years.

Regardless, both franchises were very huge and that's why we still see them discussed today.

I just get a little annoyed when things which are easily verified are held in dispute, that's all. I do remember that He-Man.org used to archive as many old articles about MOTU as they could find, so that's where I would look if a person wanted more info.

Like I said I peached, but really couldn't find any thing about MOTU.....maybe I just suck at looking

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

Fortnite. I saw some gameplay roughly when it first came out, and it looked average. Kinda similar to Multiplayer servers for Minescraft, and I thought it would be a game that stayed around for a few months with some success

Boy was I wrong

It's pretty much everywhere now. It's almost like the whole Minecraft 'fad' where everyone seems to play it

I still don't think it's going to last anywhere near as long as Minecraft has though