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Old 01-13-2022, 09:46 PM   #341
CyberCubed
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Considering the movie has to be pretty much done at this point, it's bizarre they don't just drop it on streaming somewhere. It'll probably just be released without any promotion.
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Old 01-13-2022, 11:38 PM   #342
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It's not like I'm ever gonna watch the thing, but I can't help but be curious about WHAT exactly the holdup is.

It can't be JUST that nobody wants the thing or cares about this iteration of TMNT; they knew that BEFORE they started work on the movie, yet they promised it was gonna come out anyway. I get that it's become a product of obligation rather than interest - "We said we'd do it, so we're stuck, kinda" - but this is very strange.

Like, you're allowed to just cancel stuff. They couldn't have sunk THAT much money in it, to the point where it would matter much if the thing just never happened. If it's not happening, they should come out and say so, and if it is, where's ANY news at all about it?

Considering they didn't even bother officially announcing the cancellation of the show itself, at first, it wouldn't shock me if this thing actually WAS cancelled behind the scenes and they just didn't announce it in order to avoid any embarrassment, same as the show. Maybe they just "forgot" to take the placeholder down, I don't know.

But this whole situation is very strange, and while I care 0% about this version of TMNT I do admit I'd love to know the real story about what's going on with this, and why.

It's probably never coming out, but even so, what happened, and when/why/how? It's just bizarre. If it were JUST "nobody cares" they could have just said that three years ago. But what else could it be?
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Old 01-14-2022, 02:36 AM   #343
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I don't wish bad jojo on anyone involved in the show, but there is a catharsis to this version of tmnt crashing and burning. Again, it's not like I hate it, but I certainly don't care for it or want to see the brand handled like "Rise..." so to see this whole thing completely botched has part of me going "yeah, think about that Viacom. Get your crap together." Can't help it.
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Old 01-14-2022, 03:26 AM   #344
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Even the vocal minority of fans for this version will move on and forget about it, the longer the wait for this is. There were animatics of unproduced episodes on one of the animator's twitter posts, some even with voice acting. I don't know if Bauza saw a final cut or an animatic but I can only assume it's still happening. Plus the movie likely won't be that long so they have to be done soon, right?
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Old 01-14-2022, 03:32 AM   #345
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The more time that passes and the nearer new incarnations come (and apparently there is two) the greater impetus will be to bury this, even if it means sacrificing money already spent. Unless they are somehow contractually locked to do this for Netflix. If not, I expect this will quietly die. There isn't much reason to risk muddying the waters with something very unpopular with fans that is guaranteed to make nothing and potentially taking away from things that could make (in their eyes) infinitely more and succeed where it failed. Maybe before COVID they were like "whatever, let's just drop this because here's this void in the schedule anyway" but then they couldn't do much anyway for a year and a half, and now any potential release is much closer to their real interests... so different ballgame.
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Old 01-14-2022, 05:04 AM   #346
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The brand's gonna be just fine, though. Viacom/Nick totally isn't run by chimps and they totally have big, big plans on the horizon for TMNT, and the competent interest to see those plans through to a satisfying result. It's allllll gonna be FINE, you guys.

Sigh.
-------------

No, really, I mean the entire abandonment of this iteration speaks VERY ill of the future. Sure, it wasn't popular, but Nick definitely WANTED it to be, and were aghast when it wasn't. They had no back-up plan or anything. They were all-in on Rise, and they were prepared to force-feed it to people until they got on board with it, until that became financially impossible due to just how little interest there actually was. This was their one Big Idea, and it flopped. And they had nothing else in the chamber, so now it's "Who even KNOWS when we'll actually get the next thing?" I know the Rogen thing has a tentative date, but key word being "tentative". Anything else, a cartoon or TV show? "Eh... maybe one day?"

And then there was the Bay movies, which again Nick was SO sure would go over huge... except they didn't, and once again they had no Plan B. SO, back to the holding pattern. "Watch This Space".

This company... does NOT know what the f*ck they're doing with TMNT. At all. I assure you, constant start-stop and upwards of several years between reboots and even ONE half-finished abandoned project was NOT the plan for the brand when they acquired it. They foresaw a steady stream of movies, cartoons, and above all, toys, non-stop. They described it when they bought it as an "evergreen" property, which from their perspective means "There shouldn't be a single day when we don't have product out there for this brand, we should be raking in money literally every single day from this in some form or fashion." They fully expected every single thing they did to be a slam dunk; if not, they'd have contingencies. "Don't like 'Rise'? How about THIS instead?" so they could quickly pivot to something else if one iteration fell flat. That's what a competent company would have done. They had no contingency, they went all-in on an idea they knew would be divisive and then were completely shocked that it didn't succeed.

They're not doing a good job. Frankly, I don't see that changing. I know, some people call it "Doom 'N Gloom", I call it Observe and Report.

An aborted movie trilogy that only got 2/3s in.

When's the next movie reboot? WHAT is the next movie reboot? "Ummm... we'll let you know. It's coming though, we swear!"

An aborted animated series that failed so hard, they were too embarrassed to even announce that it was cancelled prematurely.

A toy line for said animated series that people wouldn't buy for $2.99 on Clearance, not even kids, the supposed "new audience" that comes in with every iteration and are gonna carry the brand for the next hundred million years.

And finally, a movie for said animated series, that is essentially vaporware by this point. "Shhh... we don't talk about the 'Rise' movie."

...Yeah, go ahead and insist that this brand has a future, so long as Viacom is running sh*t. They're SO f*cking good at this.

This movie evaporating is one thing, but if you look at the Big picture... f*cking YIKES. I don't see how anyone can see sunny skies ahead, I just don't. Not unless Viacom gets bored and unloads it to either WB or Disney. I don't see that ever happening, though.

I can think of plenty of things either of those two companies would do with the brand that would be their own flavor of terrible. BUT, I don't think either WB or Disney could possibly do a worse job handling TMNT unless they were TRYING to do a worse job.

And I think either of those companies buying TMNT is the only way the brand ACTUALLY has a future that looks bright.

Nick had their shot. One decent success right out of the gate, and nothing but failure ever since. They can't even be bothered to finish what projects they start, most times. How does that inspire confidence in anyone?

What a f*cking mess. Like no, I don't care about this movie, but holy sh*t. It's just a symptom of the greater disease. And that disease is Nick/Viacom.
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Old 01-14-2022, 05:14 AM   #347
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This movie evaporating is one thing, but if you look at the Big picture... f*cking YIKES. I don't see how anyone can see sunny skies ahead, I just don't. Not unless Viacom gets bored and unloads it to either WB or Disney. I don't see that ever happening, though.

I can think of plenty of things either of those two companies would do with the brand that would be their own flavor of terrible. BUT, I don't think either WB or Disney could possibly do a worse job handling TMNT unless they were TRYING to do a worse job.

And I think either of those companies buying TMNT is the only way the brand ACTUALLY has a future that looks bright.
In my own head, this brand is as unsuccessful to Viacom as Power Rangers was to Disney and that Viacom would trade Disney TMNT for Doug.
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Old 01-14-2022, 05:24 AM   #348
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It's funny you mention that. I was talking to my wife the other day about how most times, if a brand like TMNT or MMPR or whatever isn't successful the company owning it would rather shelve it out of spite, so nobody else can make money on it either, rather than sell it, and how Disney is especially guilty of this, and YET they had a veritable goldmine in Power Rangers, did nothing with it, and then sold it away, and now it's not at its peak but it's still a lot bigger than it was before and during the time Disney had it.

She asked me what that was about, and I couldn't explain it because I hate Power Rangers and thus don't know the whole story myself, only that Disney had it, fumbled it, punted it, and then were embarrassed when the new owners did gangbusters with it.

So... what the f*ck did happen, there? I hate that brand but I'm genuinely curious. Disney selling off Power Rangers is like the Native Americans selling the island of Manhattan for $24. You'd think that they'd NEVER let that f*cking thing go, just because of what might happen... which did happen, someone else succeeding where they failed.

So, why? Just curious. Disney's more of a "throw it on the shelf to rot" company than a "We don't need this thing anymore, you take it" company. It all just seems very strange, to me.
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Old 01-14-2022, 06:06 AM   #349
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I couldn't give you the answer to that myself even as a casual Power Rangers fan (by casual I mean I watch MMPR, Turbo, Lost in Space and then grew out of it but briefly watched PR samurai. I loved the 2017 movie as it's own thing). Seliing an IP is a very non-Disney thing to do, that it still blows my mind that it happened.
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Old 01-14-2022, 06:10 AM   #350
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Thanks anyway! I'll ask Zarius.
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Old 01-14-2022, 11:45 AM   #351
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In the age of streaming it can just be quietly released any point just to mark a check mark of "new content this month" for that streaming service whether Netflix if contractually obligated or any other. No promotion as to not take away from the current products. Clearly this should've been released about 2 years ago when the show had finished airing its second season but before the third but since season 2 was cut short and they moved on this just sort of lingered since it was already a thing that was happening but since the media and fans don't care they've been able to just keep it on the downlo, similar to Star Wars Detours which has a completed season and Disney still hasn't released it but surely will at some point to have more content at Disney+.


As far as Power Rangers, no one knows exactly why Disney would sell an IP they owned, however they didn't fully own it as TOEI has some rights associated with the brand and they own the Sentai costumes so Disney never owned 100% Power Rangers or ever would. It's all speculation but it could be that they're obligated to do something with the brand or pay TOEI royalties for example if they kept it so they decided it wasn't worth the headache for the little money the brand would give them if they kept it to rot in the Disney vault and they now owned Marvel.

I'm not sure where you're getting your information from but power rangers was relatively successful under Disney and more successful than it was before the sale and even after the sale. Power Rangers became the #1 brand for toys for boys at least for the first few years they had it, they kinda stopped caring near the end. Saban bought Power Rangers back and there was a big push in marketing to make them relevant again but as much as Saban did it he was never able to reach the highs of the Disney years, Nickelodeon and the two year format proved to be devastating for Power Rangers. Granted Power Rangers became cool again a few years ago but that wasn't because of anything Saban did, it was because of nostalgia. The kids who grew up with Power Rangers in the 90s were finally old enough to LOVE Mighty Morphin all over again as a manchild. None of those older fans care about Power Rangers, they care about the new Mighty Morphin Power Rangers nostalgia. And it's because of that 20 year cycle brands have to recover old fans who are now adults with jobs that the brand became big enough that Hasbro paid top dollar for it, not because of what Saban tried to do and failed at.

Power Rangers had original content every year since its inception because it adapted Sentai, now that Hasbro owns it, they seem to only be interested in the Mighty Morphin season so basically all the world building and continuity that has lasted like 30 years will be destroyed in favor of nostalgia and remaking MMPR over and over again like the Boom Comics have made.
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Old 01-14-2022, 12:10 PM   #352
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the company owning it would rather shelve it out of spite, so nobody else can make money on it either, rather than sell it, and how Disney is especially guilty of this
Which is exactly why I DON'T want Disney getting their hands on them, nor the big ones like DC and Marvel, because the likelihood of them selling the TMNT once they got bored and were effectively done with them seems slim to none.

If nothing else, I at least have to give Viacom/Nick props that they aren't opposed to letting others do something with them and esp let that Batman/TMNT movie happen that was a bit more mature than Nick's normal target audience. While I don't trust their direction right now, I hope they'd at least keep that up.

Not that Disney only does little kiddie stuff, but they make me quite afraid they'll go and lock the Turtles in their "vault" if/when they'd be done bothering with them instead of letting them free to move on to someone else who is interested.
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Old 01-14-2022, 12:20 PM   #353
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As I've said, I don't think Rise was ever supposed to be anything other than a cheap, quick experiment they wanted to throw out there to kill time between one "real" version (2012 series) and whatever the next one would be.

But then you guys took it seriously, lol. They didn't, why would you?
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Old 01-14-2022, 12:48 PM   #354
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As I've said, I don't think Rise was ever supposed to be anything other than a cheap, quick experiment they wanted to throw out there to kill time between one "real" version (2012 series) and whatever the next one would be.

But then you guys took it seriously, lol. They didn't, why would you?
I wasn't following too hard, but the logic doesn't really make sense to me. New character designs, sets, hiring voice actors. Doing all the work to build up a show, just to trash it? I think the only reason it's going away so quick is because it wasn't popular.

But you may know stuff I don't. I've barely followed the news around this show and I don't know much about cartoon development/production.
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Old 01-14-2022, 12:55 PM   #355
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But then you guys took it seriously, lol. They didn't, why would you?
Who though? Maybe some, but few enough that it bombed and got axed early. They'd at least intended on a full 2nd season, presumably with the expectation of viewers taking it seriously enough for it to get there, but I guess they miscalculated.
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Old 01-14-2022, 01:02 PM   #356
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I wasn't following too hard, but the logic doesn't really make sense to me. New character designs, sets, hiring voice actors.
Yeah. Quick and dirty. And hiring voice actors? Big whoop. I've hired voice actors before.

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Doing all the work to build up a show, just to trash it? I think the only reason it's going away so quick is because it wasn't popular.
No, not trash it. Like I said, an experiment. Sure, there was the off chance it could have blown up super big and they could then revise their strategy, but they -- wisely -- didn't invest much energy into things from the get-go.

Sort of like, "We have a little time on our hands so let's put out like a cheap, minimalist wacky abstract kind of show in the meantime just to keep the brand name alive out there and hey, let's see what happens."

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Who though? Maybe some, but few enough that it bombed and got axed early.
Well, not everybody. I just mean the people who still preach the virtues of "Rise" and honestly wonder -- like, truly wonder -- why certain stuff in it wasn't approached more seriously or logically. Because whether you believe like me that "Rise" was always a cheap no harm, no foul experiment or not, the answer has always been painfully obvious.
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Old 01-14-2022, 01:38 PM   #357
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Yeah. Quick and dirty. And hiring voice actors? Big whoop. I've hired voice actors before.
You're downplaying the fact that it costs a lot of money to build a new production, as opposed to building one you can snowball for a while. Voice actors is one, tiny, small example of what it takes to build up a new television series from the ground up.
There are toys, licensing deals, everything.

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No, not trash it. Like I said, an experiment. Sure, there was the off chance it could have blown up super big and they could then revise their strategy, but they -- wisely -- didn't invest much energy into things from the get-go.
Experiments get trashed. We can call it whatever. The point is it seems like a rather expensive experiment, so I'm inclined to believe they had hopes of this show lasting around 5 seasons. There's also the consideration that experimenting isn't harmless and can quickly taint a brand name, so there is risk involved.

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Sort of like, "We have a little time on our hands so let's put out like a cheap, minimalist wacky abstract kind of show in the meantime just to keep the brand name alive out there and hey, let's see what happens."
When you put it like that, maybe. I don't know though. Still hard for me to shake the feeling that they wanted the show to last longer.

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Old 01-14-2022, 09:58 PM   #358
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They definitely wanted it to last longer. We can see that because no new TMNT cartoon has come along since, nor is there one on the horizon.

If "Rise" had been just a placeholder project, then we'd have heard and seen more about the "proper" follow-up to the NickToon by now. There's been no noise, which means they weren't working on one Then, not even conceptually.

They also tried like hell to push the toyline, which nobody supported because they hated the show and the character designs.

Nick took a bath on "Rise". "Placeholder" or not, there's no way they intended for it to be received AS poorly as it was across the board. That doesn't even make sense, and again, if they HAD a "real" TMNT cartoon in any stage of development we'd have seen or heard of it before now. "Rise" couldn't have just been "killing time", since the thing it would have been killing time for hasn't materialized and doesn't seem like its's going to anytime soon.

The toyline and the tie-in movie speak STRONGLY to the fact that Nick wanted Rise to be "the new hotness", not just a space-filler. How many cartoons have a tie-in movie commissioned for them before the show even airs? Regardless of whether or not the movie comes out, it was planned to come out, which means Nick had high hopes for it, and the show.

I don't think it makes sense for "Rise" to just be a space-filler before the next "real" TMNT cartoon. Rise WAS the next "real" TMNT cartoon, as far as they were concerned. They just underestimated fans' apathy towards it. But they definitely THOUGHT it would set the world on fire, and were shocked when it didn't.

People can think otherwise but I fail to see the logic in it.
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Old 01-15-2022, 09:59 AM   #359
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Lasted longer? You mean like getting 13-26 more (full) episodes or 39-65 more episodes? Or maybe even more than that?

Because I would have been fine with the series being 52-65 episodes long instead of the 39 we got. If it had lasted 78-104 episodes, I might have started to join the people who were actually annoyed at the show. And if it had lasted well past the 120 mark... That would probably have been way too long for this experimental thing.

I've said it before, there isn't much that is actually that wrong with this show, I find it difficult to criticise it beyond the typical problems of a toy driven show (which, by the way, are problems with all TMNT cartoons) and "I don't like how it differs from the versions I like better". That said, much like how it became increasingly clear that the 2012 show didn't really have that much substance and might as well have ended at episode 65, I think this show might have really started to struggle coming up with ideas if it lasted longer.

And in case you want a more detailed opinion:
Spoiler:
No, this show is not particularly bad in comparison to the other TMNT cartoons and is probably better than the 2012 show if we discard any expecations of what TMNT should be. It has very good animation for a TV production and very rarely does it seem as if they're just making up episodes just to fill time or because they don't know what to do. It is very deliberate.

If we compare this to the 2012 show, that one had characters just vanish after one episode, probably has more episodes that don't connect to anything, resorted to things like "killing off" Splinter three times to raise the stakes and the limited budget often made it seem as if the characters just walked in circles until they got somewhere. The 2012 show had way more objective problems than Rise and certainly more serious ones. Rise probably did way more in it's 39 episode run than what the 2012 show did in it's first 78, and did it a less awkward way too.

Of course, people like the 2012 more and I would say that's probably because the direction more like what the average TMNT fan wants and expects from the franchise. And I do somewhat agree, if the 2012 show hadn't been so awkward in execution, I really wouldn't have as many problems with it as I did and I would actually have been sad to see it get replaced by Rise. What else can I say about that? I too would like to see the Turtles be more slower paced and take itself more seriously than what Rise did and that's what the 2012 show was, but the 2012 just didn't do it well. And while Rise's direction isn't what I prefer but if I said it was actually worse based on that alone, I'd be dishonest and I don't think I can really judge a show like that.

There are some more objective flaws with Rise though. In many ways, it feels as if there are some missing episodes or things that needed to explained more. We never really find out things like how April met the Turtles, or how that crazy actor got his hands on real space weapons, or why people are allowed to run businesses after becoming mutants, etc. It does seem to have a tendency to gloss over certain key details that wouldn't fly otherwise. Maybe if this show had been a pure comedy show like Family Guy where all logic flies out the window but this show does still run on some logic and it does have a plot that stretching over the course of the series. The 2012 show has a similar problem too, albeit not nearly as severe as it mostly comes out in the form of Rocksteady allegedly both needing to hide from society while still being top dog in the Russian mob or Dregg randomly being a robot once without any explanation, it's just not as common, which is one of the few things where Rise genuinely did something worse than the 2012 show. It's a problem in both it's just that Rise happened to have done it even more poorly.

As for more subjective problems...
  • I think the Turtles' designs go way overboard with trying to make them look unique, Don and Raph in particular.
  • I don't like that it focuses so much on comedy, I prefer the franchise to take itself more seriously than that.
  • I don't like that Hamato Yoshi ran away to America just to be an actor, it seems really weird.
  • I don't like that Baxter Stockman is a child, it severely limits what you can do with him and is clearly just a move to emphasise comedy.
  • I think having so much of the show revolve around a mutant/demon city under New York is really distracting and I would have preferred more street level or alien stories.
  • I don't like that the show has so many mutants when human villains work just fine.
  • I don't like that Splinter is once again Hamato Yoshi mutated.
As you can probably tell from the last one as I'm sure quite a lot of you prefer for them to be the same character, criticisms such as these mainly just come from a place of expectation and want, not actually taking a look at the show itself and judging it for what it is. I would have liked the show better if it had been in accordance with that list but that would just have me happier with the show, somebody with a different mindset might have preferred the show just the way it is or had a radically different idea of a more ideal version than either what I wanted or what the show is. This is why we have to judge the quality of things for what they are and do so by using consistent criteria, not take our ideal concepts and judge them compared to that.

The point I'm trying to make here is that show is not what I want in concept. I don't want TMNT to be a goofy, hyper paced show that is all about an underground mystical city. But that is what the show is and I can't just judge it based on it differing too much from the direction I want.
Likewise, had we instead gotten a show that 100% accurate to the direction I wanted but had awful animation, writing, acting and had way too many production errors... Why should I pretend that hypothetical is good? I could still say I liked it subjectively but I would not have been able to ignore the problems.
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Old 01-15-2022, 11:12 AM   #360
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The showrunners said the show was supposed to last at least 3 years. They were hoping for 5 like the 2012 show got though.
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