Over time, do you like the 1987 Cartoon more or less? - Page 3

*Wesley* · 09-14-2022, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

I mean I wouldn't even really care that the FW cartoon is sacrosanct to so many people, if many of those same people didn't inevitably confront anyone who says "I just outgrew it and can't watch it anymore" with ad hominem attacks about being a joyless edgelord or whatever, as happens so often.

It's like I haven't listened to my Sesame Street records since I was 4, either; wow, what a supervillain. Clearly that means I haven't so much as smiled ever since.

People are allowed to acknowledge that they're no longer the target audience or satisfied by material aimed at that audience, it doesn't make them bad people or "joyless" or whatever. It just means they have more sophisticated taste than they did when they still thought boogers tasted great.

If people want to have the absolute same sincere appreciation and devotion for a thing they liked at that age, it's their business. But people like myself should be allowed to raise an eyebrow at that AND say "I don't like it anymore because I'm a grown-up" without being called names over it.

Yep, everyone is different. I try not to take things personally and that includes both positive and negative feedback.

cammy85 · 09-15-2022, 08:43 AM

It all depends on the mood really. There are episodes for every mood. But if you watch one from Season 1 or 8-10 which are serialized, it's hard to watch just one. Season 7 isn't serialized, but same thing. Then you agonize over the decision and then decide on something else. I have the DVDs especially because they're obviously better quality than those old encodes with the subtitles or Ninja Turtles Netwoek, especially on larger monitors/TVs.

*Prowler* · 09-19-2022, 03:29 PM

I wouldn't say I like it less.

More like I can see not only its flaws but also the issues it caused to the property. It's was propelled it into stardom but at the same time also what limited its potential growth.

I was already beginning to see the falws of the FW series when I was a kid, but since TMNT went in a very different direction with the 2k3 series, I felt like FW was just something from the past. But then the Nick sale happened and yeah...

With 2k3 I felt like the property was slowly growing with me, but clearly that didn't happen in the end.

I can think of dozens of animated series which are overall better than the Fred Wolf series. It's not some golden standard of animation.

*ZariusTwo* · 09-20-2022, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarchistguy

It's your typical 80s cartoon that only exists to sell toys.

And those toys gave you a pleasant childhood. What is so sinful about that?

What's wrong with cartoons entertaining you AND giving you the incentive to spend money on things to help you entertain yourself?

Everything exists to sell something, even your precious 'edgy' TMNT like 23K, 2012, Rise and the f*cking movies. Unclench. They all sold toys too.

*Shark_Blade* · 09-20-2022, 08:09 AM

I mainly only watch Season 1 of FW and on rewatches, I never get tired of her.
It made me appreciate the character more I guess.

*neatoman* · 09-20-2022, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

And those toys gave you a pleasant childhood. What is so sinful about that?

What's wrong with cartoons entertaining you AND giving you the incentive to spend money on things to help you entertain yourself?

Everything exists to sell something, even your precious 'edgy' TMNT like 23K, 2012, Rise and the f*cking movies. Unclench. They all sold toys too.

Geez, I hope steam isn't coming out your ears there, buddy...

Anyway, I guess I might as well start with your argument about the other TMNT cartoons. I don't really think anyone is really disputing that they were also made to sell toys or even that they were particularly more subtle about it. However, it would be dishonest to say they had the same high level of production errors or the same low standard for writing quality. While it is still unfortunate that they were also rather blatant toy commercials, I can still say they were of higher quality. And the 2003 show does qualify as an actual adaptation half the time, so there is at least the additional value of that. As for the movies, I don't really see how the first or third movie really qualify as toy commercials aside from having toys based on the movie designs, but I can't really think of anything that seems like it was added just to sell toys.

Then we have your first argument about a "pleasant childhood", I have a bit of a problem trying to understand what you're trying to convey. I assume you are tangling together the experience of watching the show with playing with the toys... Which while technically related experiences, are still two different experiences. You playing with the toys and you watching the show weren't the same thing, you can't really use the existence of the toys to validate the quality of the show, that's really weird. If you intended to communicate some other idea, please tell me what that was.

And finally, what is wrong about the show primarily being advertisement? Oh boy, I saved that one for last since it's the most difficult to unpack. Alright, the simplest way I can describe this is that entertainment/art does not really have the same goal as advertisement, blurring the line like this creates problems with the story telling. Characters and objects will often be introduced with no regard for how they alter the story, creating strange plots with random elements, this actually hurts the quality of the writing quite significantly as it means the story structure, consistency and pacing takes a backseat to the toys being advertised. If a toy company is the primary stake holder and main contributor to the budget, that would give them enormous power over how good the show is going to look. It is also worth noting that back in those days, the schedule would often be rushed and the budget kept as low as possible just to make sure the show was advertising toys still on store shelves and didn't cost more to make than what the toy sales could earn. And of course there is the pesky little fact that non-ambiguous advertisement like the commercials made to sell anything else also existed, which just makes the practice of blurring the line a bit pointless and kind of a sleazy tactic from the ground up.

*Zachatello00* · 09-20-2022, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

It's never been bettered and the franchise would never have been worth a s*it without it, it'd otherwise have fizzled out after it's initial status as an indie hit.

That’s a great point. I would probably have never heard of the TMNT without this cartoon. I didn’t get into comics proper until the mid-90s, ten years after the turtles got started.

*neatoman* · 09-20-2022, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zachatello00

That’s a great point. I would probably have never heard of the TMNT without this cartoon. I didn’t get into comics proper until the mid-90s, ten years after the turtles got started.

Not really, it's the sort of thing we will never know sure, so crediting the Fred Wolf as the only possible way the franchise could have grown is not intellectually honest. It's the type of argument people fall back on when they realise they can't really defend something on it's own merits.

*Leo656* · 09-20-2022, 11:36 AM

I don't care about anything of TMNT being a toy commercial, since I'm a huge fan of toys and honestly think that just being a full-time toy brand (with occasional video games) and just not bothering to do movies and cartoons anymore would be the best possible future for this franchise, considering how consistently terrible the movies and cartoons have been for a long time now. Just do the stuff people like and eliminate anything that gets a mixed-to-poor reaction. People love the NECA and Super 7 toys, they love most of the video games, but everything else does poorly. Okay, so if that's the case then just stick with what works, that's what I'd do.

So I don't have any issue about TMNT pushing plastic. My issues with the old cartoon show are just that I think it's far too dumb and shoddily-made to deserve the reverence it receives to this day. That's all.

I don't see why this always has and always will cause so much steam between people. It's not a well-made show, and the soundtrack and voice cast do ALL the heavy lifting. It's got charm, sure. It's memorable, sure. But it aims for the lowest common denominator in its writing and its humor and I think people should be allowed to be dissatisfied with that.

4Kids isn't a better TMNT cartoon because it's "edgy".... and Who ever said that, exactly? I don't think I've ever heard anyone describe 4Kids that way, actually. It might be more "edgy" than the FW cartoon but then so is a frisbee. No, 4Kids is a much better show because it's simply A Much Better Show. Maybe it doesn't tickle some people the same way with its humor as the original did, but that's subjective. What's objective is, it's written better, has far fewer extremely obvious errors in its animation, and obviously that matters to a lot of people. I mean towards the latter days one could argue it got even dumber than the FW cartoon, tonally, so I mean... yeah, "edgy", that show wasn't. "More competently made" than the original, though? Law's yes.

Although the original cartoon does have better music and voice acting. But that's like I keep saying, people forgive a LOT about the old cartoon because of those two factors, specifically. Take those away, I highly doubt the original show would still be so revered, because otherwise there just isn't much to put it over compared to its successor.

Part of why I hate this franchise so much is the insipid "broken base" issue. 99% of ALL TMNT conversation since the beginning of time has been arguing the merits of each iteration and it's just so f*cking stupid anymore. I wish this brand had only ever had one consistent style and tone and then people could like it or lump it. It's all just half-truths and ad hominems and people either defending their right to still like what they liked when they were 6 or people defending their right to grow up and move on.

I mean, quite frankly my life would have been just fine if FW TMNT, or TMNT in general, had never existed, but that's me personally. Sure it "enriched" my life in some way, but frankly I was still way more of a MOTU and Ghostbusters fan even after they stopped making product for those things. If TMNT hadn't come along, I just would have kept playing with my "old" MOTU and Ghostbusters stuff, and bought more Hasbro WWF toys. So when I look back I don't see some giant TMNT-shaped hole in my life if it had never existed. Point of fact when I first was exposed to it in '88 I initially thought it was the stupidest thing ever conceived, before changing my mind and getting into it, and as I've been outspoken about my opinion on that has come full circle. And for a multitude of reasons, I do mostly wish I'd stayed away from it entirely back then. I think this brand has brought me far more annoyance than joy, by now.

I'unno. It annoys me that we STILL have these conversations and that they're STILL so consistently salty, over a brand that REALLY and truly does not deserve as much reverence as it receives from either end of the debate.

*Anarchistguy* · 09-21-2022, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neatoman

Not really, it's the sort of thing we will never know sure, so crediting the Fred Wolf as the only possible way the franchise could have grown is not intellectually honest. It's the type of argument people fall back on when they realise they can't really defend something on it's own merits.

Exactly. I know A LOT of people who got to know about the TMNT, not through the cartoon but through the first movie.

*neatoman* · 09-21-2022, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarchistguy

Exactly. I know A LOT of people who got to know about the TMNT, not through the cartoon but through the first movie.

Yeah, and what about hypotheticals? What if the license had gone to Ruby-Spears, DIC, Sunbow or even one of the bigger ones like Disney? That would have very likely resulted in a very different show. Hell, even if Fred Wolf still got the license but Playmates cooked up a different set of concepts for the toyline, that could also have changed the direction quite drastically.

Had any of these hypothetical alternatives seen the light of day instead, wouldn't people claim they were the one and only way the franchise could have grown? Or had the first season of the Fred Wolf cartoon been exactly the same but nobody tuned in for the first season, would people claim the show was always doomed to flop?

Yes, what happened in the real world was that the Fred Wolf cartoon happened to be first mass media version and it happened to be a financial success. So it might seem intuitive that it was bound to be a hit or that it was successful because of the exact direction but just isn't a correct assumption. We will never really know for sure.

*Anarchistguy* · 09-21-2022, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

And those toys gave you a pleasant childhood. What is so sinful about that?

What's wrong with cartoons entertaining you AND giving you the incentive to spend money on things to help you entertain yourself?

Everything exists to sell something, even your precious 'edgy' TMNT like 23K, 2012, Rise and the f*cking movies. Unclench. They all sold toys too.

So because I had a nice childhood I should just shut up and not question the quality of a product? Nice logic there.

Antoniocafe · 10-07-2022, 05:35 PM

I still enjoy pretty much all of the cartoons from those years: Alvin & the Chipmunks, The Super Mario Bros Super Show, Garfield & Friends, Tiny Toon Adventures, The Real Ghostbusters, Muppet Babies. I'll take cartoons from the late 80s to early 90s over the cartoons from the last five years or so.

In my rewatch of the original cartoon, I just got done with the Europe episodes. I have to admit, that was a pretty rough batch to watch. But up to that point, the first three seasons have been very enjoyable.

~~AquaParade~~ · 10-07-2022, 06:50 PM

I enjoyed it as a child. I mostly just appreciate it now.
Both for nostalgic reasons and just because it’s generally pretty charming.
But I can’t sit through more than an episode, if even that, anymore.

The fist season still appeals to me just enough to be enjoyable, but nostalgia plays a role there too.

*Prowler* · 10-12-2022, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaParade

I enjoyed it as a child. I mostly just appreciate it now.
Both for nostalgic reasons and just because it’s generally pretty charming.
But I can’t sit through more than an episode, if even that, anymore.

The fist season still appeals to me just enough to be enjoyable, but nostalgia plays a role there too.

Well, the first season also has strong continuity between each episode. So watching those 5 episodes in one day is easier than watching 5 random episodes from seasons 4-6 in a row.

For some years I'd marathon the whole show during summer vacation. It was a personal tradition of mine at some point. I was a kid/teenager, so it was a different time. Nowadays, I'd be unable to do that. I'm not even talking about time here. I can easily watch 10 One Piece episodes on a Saturday or something. But 10 FW episodes? No. Not anymore.

Plus, considering I've watched 99% of the episodes about a dozen times... that probably plays into it as well. The FW series has nothing I haven't seen already.

Antoniocafe · 10-28-2022, 04:12 PM

Needing to take a little break from my original cartoon rewatch. The first disc on the season four set, preceeded by the Europe episodes, has been really rough watch. It's a bunch of episodes that I believe were produced by a different animation studio. I think the only episode on the first disc of the season four set that was done by the regular animation studio was the Shredder's Mom episode. I'll pick up again in a while. But there's only so much I can of episodes like Four Turtles and a Baby.

biganimefan · 10-30-2022, 05:03 PM

Less. Used to be a Turtle fanatic with the series when I was a kid. Used to imagine being a part of it ALL the time 30ish years ago(back before fanfiction was really a thing). Also, some of my favorite episodes and characters back then are almost universally hated by the fandom.

Present day, I do still like it a lot. I no longer "live and breathe it" like I did as a kid. And it takes up FAR less of my thoughts as well. It is one of many TV/movie "franchise" interests. The nostalgia is strong, but I do notice the glaring issues with it. Every 5 years, I do a franchise wide marathon(all the series', movies, comics, and games. Plus maybe some fanfiction) in decade anniversaries from when it was created and when I got into it(1989). Although I usually start the previous calendar year at some point. So, while I'll likely do this again in 2023, it probably won't be right away.

Antoniocafe · 11-09-2022, 05:49 PM

The farther I get into my rewatch of the original cartoon, the harder it is to sit through. The first two seasons, very easy. Season three, not quite as good, but I still enjoy the episodes. Season four, and the Europe episodes, have definitely been a challenge. There are just so many stinkers in there. I am really looking forward to The Big Cufflink Caper, the Dimension X Story, and the Footsoldiers are Revolting. As those were some of my favorite episodes in the series.

09-20-2022, 11:36 AM	#49
Leo656 The Franchise Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,696	I don't care about anything of TMNT being a toy commercial, since I'm a huge fan of toys and honestly think that just being a full-time toy brand (with occasional video games) and just not bothering to do movies and cartoons anymore would be the best possible future for this franchise, considering how consistently terrible the movies and cartoons have been for a long time now. Just do the stuff people like and eliminate anything that gets a mixed-to-poor reaction. People love the NECA and Super 7 toys, they love most of the video games, but everything else does poorly. Okay, so if that's the case then just stick with what works, that's what I'd do. So I don't have any issue about TMNT pushing plastic. My issues with the old cartoon show are just that I think it's far too dumb and shoddily-made to deserve the reverence it receives to this day. That's all. I don't see why this always has and always will cause so much steam between people. It's not a well-made show, and the soundtrack and voice cast do ALL the heavy lifting. It's got charm, sure. It's memorable, sure. But it aims for the lowest common denominator in its writing and its humor and I think people should be allowed to be dissatisfied with that. 4Kids isn't a better TMNT cartoon because it's "edgy".... and Who ever said that, exactly? I don't think I've ever heard anyone describe 4Kids that way, actually. It might be more "edgy" than the FW cartoon but then so is a frisbee. No, 4Kids is a much better show because it's simply A Much Better Show. Maybe it doesn't tickle some people the same way with its humor as the original did, but that's subjective. What's objective is, it's written better, has far fewer extremely obvious errors in its animation, and obviously that matters to a lot of people. I mean towards the latter days one could argue it got even dumber than the FW cartoon, tonally, so I mean... yeah, "edgy", that show wasn't. "More competently made" than the original, though? Law's yes. Although the original cartoon does have better music and voice acting. But that's like I keep saying, people forgive a LOT about the old cartoon because of those two factors, specifically. Take those away, I highly doubt the original show would still be so revered, because otherwise there just isn't much to put it over compared to its successor. Part of why I hate this franchise so much is the insipid "broken base" issue. 99% of ALL TMNT conversation since the beginning of time has been arguing the merits of each iteration and it's just so fcking stupid anymore. I wish this brand had only ever had one consistent style and tone and then people could like it or lump it. It's all just half-truths and ad hominems and people either defending their right to still like what they liked when they were 6 or people defending their right to grow up and move on. I mean, quite frankly my life would have been just fine if FW TMNT, or TMNT in general, had never existed, but that's me personally. Sure it "enriched" my life in some way, but frankly I was still way more of a MOTU and Ghostbusters fan even after they stopped making product for those things. If TMNT hadn't come along, I just would have kept playing with my "old" MOTU and Ghostbusters stuff, and bought more Hasbro WWF toys. So when I look back I don't see some giant TMNT-shaped hole in my life if it had never existed. Point of fact when I first was exposed to it in '88 I initially thought it was the stupidest thing ever conceived, before changing my mind and getting into it, and as I've been outspoken about my opinion on that has come full circle. And for a multitude of reasons, I do mostly wish I'd stayed away from it entirely back then. I think this brand has brought me far more annoyance than joy, by now. I'unno. It annoys me that we STILL have these conversations and that they're STILL so consistently salty, over a brand that REALLY and truly does not deserve as much reverence as it receives from either end of the debate. __________________ "I left some words quite far from here to be a short reminder... I laid them out in stone, in case they need to last forever..." "But hey... I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know."* nWo Tech: The Official Thread Poison of the Technodrome Forums https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxr...awnHgDz1ceDcfA https://theroxxshow.blogspot.com/

10-30-2022, 05:03 PM	#57
biganimefan Foot Soldier Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Indiana Posts: 228	Less. Used to be a Turtle fanatic with the series when I was a kid. Used to imagine being a part of it ALL the time 30ish years ago(back before fanfiction was really a thing). Also, some of my favorite episodes and characters back then are almost universally hated by the fandom. Present day, I do still like it a lot. I no longer "live and breathe it" like I did as a kid. And it takes up FAR less of my thoughts as well. It is one of many TV/movie "franchise" interests. The nostalgia is strong, but I do notice the glaring issues with it. Every 5 years, I do a franchise wide marathon(all the series', movies, comics, and games. Plus maybe some fanfiction) in decade anniversaries from when it was created and when I got into it(1989). Although I usually start the previous calendar year at some point. So, while I'll likely do this again in 2023, it probably won't be right away. Last edited by biganimefan; 10-30-2022 at 05:25 PM.

09-15-2022, 08:43 AM	#42
cammy85 Stone Warrior Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Minnedosa, MB Canada Posts: 703	It all depends on the mood really. There are episodes for every mood. But if you watch one from Season 1 or 8-10 which are serialized, it's hard to watch just one. Season 7 isn't serialized, but same thing. Then you agonize over the decision and then decide on something else. I have the DVDs especially because they're obviously better quality than those old encodes with the subtitles or Ninja Turtles Netwoek, especially on larger monitors/TVs.

09-19-2022, 03:29 PM	#43
Prowler Emperor Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Portugal Posts: 8,909	I wouldn't say I like it less. More like I can see not only its flaws but also the issues it caused to the property. It's was propelled it into stardom but at the same time also what limited its potential growth. I was already beginning to see the falws of the FW series when I was a kid, but since TMNT went in a very different direction with the 2k3 series, I felt like FW was just something from the past. But then the Nick sale happened and yeah... With 2k3 I felt like the property was slowly growing with me, but clearly that didn't happen in the end. I can think of dozens of animated series which are overall better than the Fred Wolf series. It's not some golden standard of animation.

09-20-2022, 08:09 AM	#45
Shark_Blade Emperor Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 7,902	I mainly only watch Season 1 of FW and on rewatches, I never get tired of her. It made me appreciate the character more I guess.

10-07-2022, 05:35 PM	#53
Antoniocafe Thug Join Date: Apr 2022 Posts: 94	I still enjoy pretty much all of the cartoons from those years: Alvin & the Chipmunks, The Super Mario Bros Super Show, Garfield & Friends, Tiny Toon Adventures, The Real Ghostbusters, Muppet Babies. I'll take cartoons from the late 80s to early 90s over the cartoons from the last five years or so. In my rewatch of the original cartoon, I just got done with the Europe episodes. I have to admit, that was a pretty rough batch to watch. But up to that point, the first three seasons have been very enjoyable.

10-07-2022, 06:50 PM	#54
~~AquaParade~~ Banned Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 8,450	I enjoyed it as a child. I mostly just appreciate it now. Both for nostalgic reasons and just because it’s generally pretty charming. But I can’t sit through more than an episode, if even that, anymore. The fist season still appeals to me just enough to be enjoyable, but nostalgia plays a role there too.

10-28-2022, 04:12 PM	#56
Antoniocafe Thug Join Date: Apr 2022 Posts: 94	Needing to take a little break from my original cartoon rewatch. The first disc on the season four set, preceeded by the Europe episodes, has been really rough watch. It's a bunch of episodes that I believe were produced by a different animation studio. I think the only episode on the first disc of the season four set that was done by the regular animation studio was the Shredder's Mom episode. I'll pick up again in a while. But there's only so much I can of episodes like Four Turtles and a Baby.

11-09-2022, 05:49 PM	#58
Antoniocafe Thug Join Date: Apr 2022 Posts: 94	The farther I get into my rewatch of the original cartoon, the harder it is to sit through. The first two seasons, very easy. Season three, not quite as good, but I still enjoy the episodes. Season four, and the Europe episodes, have definitely been a challenge. There are just so many stinkers in there. I am really looking forward to The Big Cufflink Caper, the Dimension X Story, and the Footsoldiers are Revolting. As those were some of my favorite episodes in the series.