LGBT in TMNT

[Prowler]

I don't understand why several people consider Donatello "the least masculine Turtle". I mean why? So because he's tech savy that means he's not as good of a fighter? In the FW series he surely didn't seem to have issues with fighting. In fact, Raphael was the one less eager to fight of all of them "Do we really have to?". In 2k3, Donatello might not be so outspoken but that doesn't make a man gay. He doesn't come across as unmanly in the TMNT movies and the Mirage comics I've seen/read.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Probably has more to do with general nerdiness than anything. Or his pacifistic tendancies. And maybe his lack of interest in dating/girls up until Nick? I think some fans just consider him the "safe" one, ie he is less likely to go gaga over a female (Nick notwithstanding) and to be the one you could just hang with as a male friend.

At any rate he's definitely the one least hyper-masculine unlike Raph.

[plastroncafe]

Cultural mileage may vary, but here in the States...yeah, Donnie doesn't rank very highly against the yardstick that is the American Concept of Masculinity.

Compare what you would consider his strongest traits against the criteria for "Manliest Movies" and you're not going to see a whole lot of overlap.

And particularly in the 80s, anyone who didn't measure up was either a "girl" or a "f@g."

Both of which are equally as loathsome.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Cultural mileage may vary, but here in the States...yeah, Donnie doesn't rank very highly against the yardstick that is the American Concept of Masculinity.

Compare what you would consider his strongest traits against the criteria for "Manliest Movies" and you're not going to see a whole lot of overlap.

And particularly in the 80s, anyone who didn't measure up was either a "girl" or a "f@g."

Both of which are equally as loathsome.

But movies like Predator and men like Schwarzenegger aren't really what your typical male is. I've never taken part in a guerrilla war nor do am I roided freak bodybuilder. Am I unmanly and gay?

Just because Donatello wouldn't play the main role in Predator doesn't mean he's unmanly. I could see the Mirage Turtles in Fight Club or in a movie like Das Boot, though.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Prowler

But movies like Predator and men like Schwarzenegger aren't really what your typical male is. I've never taken part in a guerrilla war nor do am I roided freak bodybuilder. Am I unmanly and gay?

Very few men are like that, and yet movies of their ilk do very well. So well that they're considered by many, again I refer you to the thread, as the pinnacle of masculine behavior.

It's kind of why they're referred to as Male Power Fantasy.

Look at the PD Turtle movies...even there Donnie is a 'roided out freak of a body builder.

Just because Donatello wouldn't play the main role in Predator doesn't mean he's unmanly. I could see the Mirage Turtles in Fight Club or in a movie like Das Boot, though.

Fight Club is all about the deconstruction of the Male Power Fantasy.
In that movie? Donnie would be "Jack" and Raph would be Tyler Durden.
Actually...maybe that'd be Mike. He's way more charismatic.

And to be honest, I think more media should focus on Mike and Don.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Very few men are like that, and yet movies of their ilk do very well. So well that they're considered by many, again I refer you to the thread, as the pinnacle of masculine behavior.

It's kind of why they're referred to as Male Power Fantasy.

Look at the PD Turtle movies...even there Donnie is a 'roided out freak of a body builder.



Fight Club is all about the deconstruction of the Male Power Fantasy.
In that movie? Donnie would be "Jack" and Raph would be Tyler Durden.
Actually...maybe that'd be Mike. He's way more charismatic.

And to be honest, I think more media should focus on Mike and Don.

Well it depends on the individual. I personally wouldn't want to look like Schwarzeneger but I like reading and watching stuff about war and sports.

I wish I could invent just about anything like Donatello. Plus, it's not like eh sits back and never fights. He definitely is courageous... unlike 2k3 Mike at times who can be quite a chicken.

God don't mention PD Turtles. That s*it is an abomination.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Or his pacifistic tendancies.

That's mainly the part that I've assumed it to be. The least aggressive of the bunch and the least 'in your face' type, not fitting society's very limited idea/ideal of masculinity. And doesn't help that his demeanor exists alongside the clear contrast of Raph having more than his share of raw aggression - who, what, many might think he'd be leader if he wasn't so unhinged, but why... because aggression?


Side note - with regard to aggressiveness and masculinity in alpha/leadership, Reader's Digest has a nice article: Think You Know What “Alpha Male” Means? These Wolves Will Prove You Wrong


Donnie is the main grease monkey of the family though, what with the making of all those vehicles and whatnot; he's got his approved stereotyped 'manly traits' about him, while the others on the reverse have their "weak" points as well.

edit: Heck... get all four of them grimy like that and I doubt Raph will care much more than Donnie would. But in this case it's prob Leo and Mikey's turn to be stereotyped "less manly" as I could see both of them not wanting to be that filthy for no longer than they have to be. lol They've all got their stuff.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

That's mainly the part that I've assumed it to be. The least aggressive of the bunch and the least 'in your face' type, not fitting society's very limited idea/ideal of masculinity. And doesn't help that his demeanor exists alongside the clear contrast of Raph having more than his share of raw aggression - who, what, many might think he'd be leader if he wasn't so unhinged, but why... because aggression?


Side note - with regard to aggressiveness and masculinity in alpha/leadership, Reader's Digest has a nice article: Think You Know What “Alpha Male” Means? These Wolves Will Prove You Wrong


Donnie is the main grease monkey of the family though, what with the making of all those vehicles and whatnot; he's got his approved stereotyped 'manly traits' about him, while the others on the reverse have their "weak" points as well.

Exactly.

Being overtly aggressive isn't a good sign. Raphael in many of his incarnations is way too impulsive. That's not being "manly". When i was a teenager I was also more impulsive and aggressive than I am today, but was way manlier when i was 14? Hell no.

Donatello is usually more calm and collected, like Leonardo is. Having a good control of your emotions and being rational is also considered "manly" am I right?

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by Prowler

Donatello is usually more calm and collected, like Leonardo is. Having a good control of your emotions and being rational is also considered "manly" am I right?

Definitely.

Funny thing is, in that article I linked, the "alpha wolves" they studied, don't sound like Raph personalities...they sound a lot like Leo and Donnie types.

The term alpha male connotes a man who at every moment demonstrates that he’s in control in the home and who away from home can become snarling and aggressive.

This alpha male stereotype comes from a misunderstanding of the real thing.

By observing wolves in free-living packs in Yellowstone National Park, I’ve seen that the leadership of the ranking male is not forced, not domineering, and not aggressive to those on his team.

“The main characteristic of an alpha male wolf,” the veteran wolf researcher Rick McIntyre told me as we were watching gray wolves, “is a quiet confidence, quiet self-assurance. You know what you need to do; you know what’s best for your pack. You lead by example. You’re very comfortable with that. You have a calming effect.”

The point is, alpha males are not aggressive. They don’t need to be. “Think of an emotionally secure man or a great champion. Whatever he needed to prove is already proven,” he said.

So all those guys out there trying hard to be hyper masculine and/or hyper aggressive and buying into that "alpha" thing... I guess they still have much to prove. Types like Donnie don't need to.

[CyberCubed]

In the IDW comics we might have an official LGBT pairing:

Jennika (now a mutant turtle), and Sheena, a female pig mutant rocker.

[Leo656]

I bet the person who came up with the Sheena character is still snickering over how clever they are.

"Snerk... get it? Her name is Sheena... and she's a punk rocker!"

Might as well have a walrus named Paul just to really make sure nobody missed the masterful subtlety of the "joke".

Seriously, these people are so "on the nose" with their stuff that they drive your sinus cavity out the back of your head.

....If there actually is a walrus named Paul in this book, please do not tell me. I am entirely out of room in my crawlspace and I promised the nice people I'd stop doing bad things. Thanks.

[CyberCubed]

This is what she looks like for those not following the comic:

https://turtlepedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sheena

[Leo656]

Although the Ramones had a 1977 song titled Sheena Is a Punk Rocker, creator Sophie Campbell has stated that she had never heard of the song prior to the character's creation.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I bet the person who came up with the Sheena character is still snickering over how clever they are.

"Snerk... get it? Her name is Sheena... and she's a punk rocker!"

Might as well have a walrus named Paul just to really make sure nobody missed the masterful subtlety of the "joke".

Seriously, these people are so "on the nose" with their stuff that they drive your sinus cavity out the back of your head.

....If there actually is a walrus named Paul in this book, please do not tell me. I am entirely out of room in my crawlspace and I promised the nice people I'd stop doing bad things. Thanks.

Originally Posted by TMNT-Pedia

Although the Ramones had a 1977 song titled Sheena Is a Punk Rocker, creator Sophie Campbell has stated that she had never heard of the song prior to the character's creation

Also didn't George write I am the Walrus? To the wikipedias!
Lennon, it was John Lennon.

[Leo656]

They can insist that they've never, ever in their life heard a song that was arguably The Ramones' biggest and most-recognized hit and is thus played on the radio literally every single day somewhere in the world and was even featured prominently in the original "Pet Sematary" and other films and TV shows. They can insist that all day, all night and all year to cover up for the fact that such an obvious joke isn't very clever or funny and that even an 8th grade writing teacher would call it out and be like, "C'mon, really? Try a little harder."

They can say it all they want, but it's simply not true, is all.

That would be like me swearing up and down that I've never masturbated to Madonna's "Cherish" video. I can swear to it on a stack of Bibles but everybody's still gonna know I'm lying because of course I would be.

[Allsparrow]

There are more creatives than just Sophie working at IDW. Kevin or Tom could have made the suggestion, and Sophie can still claim to be in the dark. If you ask me, the pink haired pig Is an avatar for her, but corny naming is very “Kevin”.

[King Kahn]

Originally Posted by Leo656

They can insist that they've never, ever in their life heard a song that was arguably The Ramones' biggest and most-recognized hit and is thus played on the radio literally every single day somewhere in the world and was even featured prominently in the original "Pet Sematary" and other films and TV shows. They can insist that all day, all night and all year to cover up for the fact that such an obvious joke isn't very clever or funny and that even an 8th grade writing teacher would call it out and be like, "C'mon, really? Try a little harder."

They can say it all they want, but it's simply not true, is all.

That would be like me swearing up and down that I've never masturbated to Madonna's "Cherish" video. I can swear to it on a stack of Bibles but everybody's still gonna know I'm lying because of course I would be.

Eh. Some people don’t hear everything. I just listened to the song and honestly I don’t think I had heard it before now and I’m 40.

[Leo656]

When people tell me they've never listened to or heard The Ramones I have no choice at all but to assume their entire lives are empty and meaningless.

Not that they're the greatest band in the world or anything, because they're not; they're just, like, ubiquitous. Their songs get played, like, ALL the time everywhere and that was their second-biggest hit. Perhaps you and they never sat down and listened to it before on purpose, but I promise that you've been exposed to it many times even if you didn't realize it. You watched a movie like Pet Sematary that used it prominently, or it was playing at a bar or restaurant you were in. Right now, I promise that somebody's playing it somewhere on some station or at some party or SOMEthing.

It leads me to ask what else these people haven't experienced. Table salt? Fabric softener? What other elements of Regular Daily Life are these people missing out on? It boggles the mind when people tell me they're unaware of The Ramones. It's like, I don't LISTEN to Pink Floyd, but Lord knows that I've listened to a ton of them just through cultural osmosis. I'd have to never leave the house or turn on the radio in order to avoid them.

Someone saying "I've never heard 'Sheena Is A Punk Rocker' before" is like saying "I have no idea who Batman is." I simultaneously don't believe them and also hope for their sake it's not true. People shouldn't be THAT sheltered, it simply isn't right.

But no, I don't believe the official story. The gag name is way too much of the exact kinda humor they go for, for it to be a happy accident or coincidence. Someone who purposely named a character after Lita Ford absolutely knows who The Ramones are and absolutely knows their second-biggest hit. I am nowhere near that gullible, they're just playing some hipster nonsense.

It's like Grant Morrison insisting he doesn't rip off Alan Moore when that's about 90% of his function and people constantly point it out and call him on it. C'mon, just be honest, people respect you more that way.

[garsh]

I'm also one of those people basically oblivious to The Ramones. The name is familiar for sure, but before reading about all this I never could have named or recognized anything they've done. I'm pretty sure I did watch Pet Sematary to completion at least once, but hearing the song by itself doesn't ring a bell at all. Now that you mention it, I don't think I've ever used fabric softener either.

[lonewarrior20]

I've only seen the Ramones in their cameo on the early simpsons and didn't know the song either. It's like asking a country western fan what they know about jazz.