So what's with Mirage purists?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Agreed. People actually don't realize how much we lucked out with IDW and Nick TMNT. It could have turned out like the 2014 movie or worse.

The Nick cartoon could have very well been a very shallow and dumbed down show for 4 year olds but it isn't. The IDW comic could have been terribly written with bad plots and art...but it isn't. Sure its far removed from Mirage but then so was everything before it too like Fred Wolf, 4kids, the 90's movies, Archie, etc...

I really don't mind the Nick cartoon. It makes me laugh, at times. And my daughter loves it. Though it's possibly coincidentally humorous how Nick and IDW are often times trying to resurrect the exact same Fred Wolf things at almost the exact same time in different ways. I don't mean that mockingly, it's just a fascinating study of almost identical intentions coming to fruition from different camps at slightly different times.

I mean, I'm torn. With Nick, I totally get that I'm watching a toy commercial for 5 year-olds watchdogged by people with the best of intentions and are genuinely creative who love the actual Eastman & Laird source material but yet... have to do this thing. Under certain parameters. That is comedic (again, I laugh, I'm not talking about unintentional humor... it cracks me up at times, a lot is snuck in there cleverly). It's not the "true" TMNT to me, but it uses the property to reach a new generation well. And succeeds in making 34 year-old me laugh, so hey that counts for something. Then there's IDW TMNT. It seemed to be this one thing at first, then became another, and never stopped at least trying to be edgy (insomuch as it is allowed), but then came all the Fred Wolfisms. And Archisms, which I didn't and don't mind at all. What I wrestle with is that at times it feels like it's fighting with itself what it wants to be... is it an adult tale about the TMNT in the vein of the Mirage? Is it trying to be Ultimate TMNT, cherry-picking from everything? But at the end of the day it often seems -- to me -- that while there might be a dash of 4Kids, or Archie, or Mirage here or there, ultimately it can't wait to unwrap the next big thing from the Fred Wolf cartoon and that sort of permeates it all along the way. Over and over again, often times right before or after the Nick cartoon seems to be following the same agenda. Again, it's never badly written... but just, even now, at times, I'm just not sure what to make of it. I don't dislike it, I'm just... unsure how to process it. I know no one's going to die for real and there hasn't been much in the way of actual consequences on the page unless it's Feudal Japan, so I'm not really held in suspense, even when word broke virally about Donatello's "death." Though by the same token that the Nick cartoon is overshadowed by a toy company and a certain agenda, I get that the IDW series with no hands tied behind its back would be something possibly very different, and I respect that. You're given a sandbox, but it comes with a set of rules... I wholly believe both the Nick folk and the IDW folk are doing the best they can within the parameters of such and are all awesome, creative people. I'm still interested in seeing where it goes, don't mistake me.

And what a coup! Batman and Ghostbusters, crossing over with TMNT? Under different circumstances 15 years ago I'd sh** myself. Even now it makes my jaw hit the floor. Batman? BATMAN? I remember drawing in elementary school comics of Batman meeting the Turtles. These are fun times to be a fan, even if I don't necessarily agree with everything that's going on the page.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I really don't mind the Nick cartoon. It makes me laugh, at times. And my daughter loves it. Though it's possibly coincidentally humorous how Nick and IDW are often times trying to resurrect the exact same Fred Wolf things at almost the exact same time in different ways. I don't mean that mockingly, it's just a fascinating study of almost identical intentions coming to fruition from different camps at slightly different times.

I mean, I'm torn. With Nick, I totally get that I'm watching a toy commercial for 5 year-olds watchdogged by people with the best of intentions and are genuinely creative who love the actual Eastman & Laird source material but yet... have to do this thing. Under certain parameters. That is comedic (again, I laugh, I'm not talking about unintentional humor... it cracks me up at times, a lot is snuck in there cleverly). It's not the "true" TMNT to me, but it uses the property to reach a new generation well. And succeeds in making 34 year-old me laugh, so hey that counts for something. Then there's IDW TMNT. It seemed to be this one thing at first, then became another, and never stopped at least trying to be edgy (insomuch as it is allowed), but then came all the Fred Wolfisms. And Archisms, which I didn't and don't mind at all. What I wrestle with is that at times it feels like it's fighting with itself what it wants to be... is it an adult tale about the TMNT in the vein of the Mirage? Is it trying to be Ultimate TMNT, cherry-picking from everything? But at the end of the day it often seems -- to me -- that while there might be a dash of 4Kids, or Archie, or Mirage here or there, ultimately it can't wait to unwrap the next big thing from the Fred Wolf cartoon and that sort of permeates it all along the way. Over and over again, often times right before or after the Nick cartoon seems to be following the same agenda. Again, it's never badly written... but just, even now, at times, I'm just not sure what to make of it. I don't dislike it, I'm just... unsure how to process it. I know no one's going to die for real and there hasn't been much in the way of actual consequences on the page unless it's Feudal Japan, so I'm not really held in suspense, even when word broke virally about Donatello's "death." Though by the same token that the Nick cartoon is overshadowed by a toy company and a certain agenda, I get that the IDW series with no hands tied behind its back would be something possibly very different, and I respect that. You're given a sandbox, but it comes with a set of rules... I wholly believe both the Nick folk and the IDW folk are doing the best they can within the parameters of such and are all awesome, creative people. I'm still interested in seeing where it goes, don't mistake me.

And what a coup! Batman and Ghostbusters, crossing over with TMNT? Under different circumstances 15 years ago I'd sh** myself. Even now it makes my jaw hit the floor. Batman? BATMAN? I remember drawing in elementary school comics of Batman meeting the Turtles. These are fun times to be a fan, even if I don't necessarily agree with everything that's going on the page.

Maybe these are just signs that you're starting to realise that you can't be disgruntled old man because some comics you like spawned something you didn't like 30 years ago.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Perhaps you're just losing interest in the franchise in general going forward, given your negative views on IDW and loss of interest in the Nick cartoon. Kinda odd, I remember you appreciating almost all the different TMNT universes for what they were when you posted more regularly. Granted that was years ago now, so maybe you're more cynical as an adult than when you were in your late teens and early 20's.

That's true. And there's definitely a sense of fun, and, if you want it, even weight to reimaginings. I think I'm just eyeing my fiction with a bit more scrutiny in the sense that I want it to hold up on its own. That certainly means different things to different people, and both the current TMNT iterations are by all accounts doing an excellent job of landing their audiences and are quite well-done, but with Turtles in particular I find most of my non-nostalgic love for it comes from the unique goals the Mirage series had, and I don't expect (quite fairly) they'll be replicated again in the franchise.

Though I do want to say that, like Andrew, I recognize that everyone involved in the new stuff is giving their all and are doing their absolute best within the parameters they've been given. It's all very high quality, which was in no way guaranteed after the Viacom buyout.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Maybe these are just signs that you're starting to realise that you can't be disgruntled old man because some comics you like spawned something you didn't like 30 years ago.

Maybe you just need to get over the fact that people have opinions you don't agree with.

[TMNachoT]

The way I see, there are purist for every TMNT version. The fans of the old toon that didn´t like the 2K3 series, the 2K3 fans that don´t like the 2K12 versions, the fans of the old movies that didn´t like 2K7 or last year film.

[Bry]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Maybe these are just signs that you're starting to realise that you can't be disgruntled old man because some comics you like spawned something you didn't like 30 years ago.

It seems like one person's individual preferences and opinions are bothering you a whole lot.

So... why? It's really not worth getting bothered, or getting hostile and personal.

[Mewzard]

I find my own fandom growth to be interesting compared to the norm. I'm at the age (turned 27 today) where I could have started watching the Fred Wolf cartoon in its middle/later years, but I really didn't at the time.

My start was with the first movie. I watched the three movies on repeat for years (and caught the Power Rangers in Space/Next Mutation crossover), but when it came to actual cartoons, I think the 03 show was the first I watched (only random episodes due to it being a roulette if I ever got up any given Saturday). Still want to see it get a complete DVD release.

Honestly, I wasn't that active in Turtles before I eventually saw Turtles Forever, got curious about the comic, talked to Andrew (whom I knew from another Podcast), and eventually started getting the comics from IDW (Mirage, Archie, and IDW itself).

Maybe it was because the first movie was my first exposure to TMNT, but I found myself enjoying Mirage's series the most of them all (though I also liked the other comics as welll *haven't read enough Archie yet to give it a fully fair shake*). A lot of my favorite moments from the first movie came from the early Mirage issues.

I can't really call myself a purist...but right now, Mirage is my favorite incarnation of TMNT (though I've only read a good chunk of Volume 1, so we'll see how my ride goes from there as I continue reading).

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

I think, what it boils down to, is this...

1.) Everyone has their own flavor of turtles they like- some like comedic and campy, some like it dark and edgy, some like it somewhere in between. Everybody has their own favorite version, born from the many incarnations over the years, and that's how they see the turtles.

2.) while most fans are content to just like what they like and pursue that version of turtles, here are those from each preferential group, that lord their opinions over everyone else's, to the point of personal attacks, flame wars, and insults.

3.) From the extreme Fred wolf fan standpoint, this is the turtles that they grew up with, and the movies/2k3/Mirage story and elements are like some kind of bizarre alternate version of the turtles they can't recognize. They get angry the characters they grew up with, and want to see aren't there (Krang, Rocksteady, Bebop, etc), and get angry at the Purists for liking and supporting this version of the TMNT, blaming them for the OT characters and personalities not being there. They want the turtles to be multicolored bandana wearing pizza chomping heroes, and the 'ninja' in their name simply means doing martial arts, not that they are a clan of revenge driven assassins. They fail to see the seriousness and grit of the original comics, and fail to see how much darker, grittier, and realistic comics have a much more serious story than the OT did. To the purist, how could they possibly want to see a version of the turtles that was slapstick, pie fights, goofy one liners, that advertised toys and moved so far away from what the turtles were actually about?

3.) To the extreme purists, Kevin Eastman and Peter laird created a work of art with gripping and dark stories based on a group of four brothers raised to serve as instruments of their master's revenge, then try to find their purpose in the world after they shred shredder. These turtles are a gritty ninja clan, who are all about survival and helping out their family, both turtle and extended. These turtles have complex personalities and are the best developed version of the characters. they get mad at the OT fans for supporting a watered-down, shallow version of the characters they know and love, and wanting goofy characters and storyline continuing to show up in in future versions of the TMNT. OT fans wonder how purists could possibly like such a boring and forgettable characters like the mirage ones, and like a comic that seems to have random, unconnected plots and drag on and on forever! How can they possibly support anything from a version that mangled a work of art?

3.) Then you have the middle of the roaders, who love turtles in any incarnation that's not over the top brain-numbingly stupid, and don't cling to any particular version like a religious dogma. They don't have the delusion that the OT is the superior and definitive version because it made the turtles popular and put them in the public consciousness, nor do they cling to the delusion that Mirage is the superior and definitive version because it was the first. They know that making the turtles serious and giving them darker elements is not going to ruin them, and on the other side putting OT characters in and making them serious in not going to spoil a sacred recipe. From their viewpoint, characters from one side making into a new incarnation does not taint the other. Gritty ninja assassins are a part of Japanese culture (just look at ninja scroll), just as much as color-coded ninja heroes are (just look at three generations of super sentai that are ninja themed!) They like the turtles for being the turtles (except truly crappy versions, of course).

4.) One side or the other decides to act like arrogant snots, acting all elitist and indirectly calling the other side 'immature' or 'stupid' for liking what they like, and refusing to even consider the other side isn't brain-dead for OBVIOUSLY not seeing how horrible they version they support is, along with all of it's elements. I don't care which version came first, or was the one that made the TMNT popular, neither is the definitive version, no matter what you say or do. And I applaud IDW and nick for pulling from every version for elements, instead of giving us either an OT or Mirage rehash. Since most TMNT fans are not really that elitist, both sides in this ridiculousness are, thankfully, fighting a battle they can never win.

[Zak The Neutrino]

My answer. Some people just don't like change. Its with any franchise that there are fans that scream bloody murder anytime someone changes something.

Some of us can't fathom this concept that people want things to be exact to the original way or the incarnation they loved. To me why would anyone want to read a new comic or see a new movie where everything happened like the last one. Where would be the fun and suspense in that? (however I will put in a disclaimer this is in no way shape or form a argument to like bay turtles. )

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

I think, what it boils down to, is this...

3.) Then you have the middle of the roaders, who love turtles in any incarnation that's not over the top brain-numbingly stupid, and don't cling to any particular version like a religious dogma. They don't have the delusion that the OT is the superior and definitive version because it made the turtles popular and put them in the public consciousness, nor do they cling to the delusion that Mirage is the superior and definitive version because it was the first. They know that making the turtles serious and giving them darker elements is not going to ruin them, and on the other side putting OT characters in and making them serious in not going to spoil a sacred recipe. From their viewpoint, characters from one side making into a new incarnation does not taint the other. Gritty ninja assassins are a part of Japanese culture (just look at ninja scroll), just as much as color-coded ninja heroes are (just look at three generations of super sentai that are ninja themed!) They like the turtles for being the turtles (except truly crappy versions, of course).

4.) One side or the other decides to act like arrogant snots, acting all elitist and indirectly calling the other side 'immature' or 'stupid' for liking what they like, and refusing to even consider the other side isn't brain-dead for OBVIOUSLY not seeing how horrible they version they support is, along with all of it's elements. I don't care which version came first, or was the one that made the TMNT popular, neither is the definitive version, no matter what you say or do. And I applaud IDW and nick for pulling from every version for elements, instead of giving us either an OT or Mirage rehash. Since most TMNT fans are not really that elitist, both sides in this ridiculousness are, thankfully, fighting a battle they can never win.

Yup. This, exactly. Well said. And I'm one of those middle-of-the-roaders.

Originally Posted by Zak The Neutrino

My answer. Some people just don't like change. Its with any franchise that there are fans that scream bloody murder anytime someone changes something.

Some of us can't fathom this concept that people want things to be exact to the original way or the incarnation they loved. To me why would anyone want to read a new comic or see a new movie where everything happened like the last one. Where would be the fun and suspense in that? (however I will put in a disclaimer this is in no way shape or form a argument to like bay turtles. )

Exactly, again. I can't imagine why you'd want a particular franchise to stay exactly the same forever. Change can be a good thing. Change is what got me back into TMNT after years away, when I discovered the 2K3 and Nick versions, and IDW. Granted, it was due to a fellow writer friend suggesting I revisit my OT/movie based fic and revamp it, but in doing so, I was reminded of why I loved them to begin with, and fell in love with the new versions just as much.

On the other hand, I can sort of understand the purist point of view as well- I feel that way (to a point) with Spider-Man. I've loved many of the changes to his story over the years, but the ONE change I could never forgive was OMD/BND. That's the end of the Spider-marriage, to those who aren't familiar. And the OMIT arc drove the final nail into THAT coffin for me. So, there comes a point where change for it's own sake is just- wrong. But I'm far from a purist, even there- after all, it was JMS's changes to the origin story that drew me in to begin with. (By giving it a meaning and higher purpose rather than random freak accident of nature, something I personally love, given my philosophical and spiritual leanings.)

But overall, I prefer when the franchise grows and changes, and new ideas are brought in. It keeps it from stagnating as it ages.

[Usagi Miyamoto]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

On the other hand, I can sort of understand the purist point of view as well- I feel that way (to a point) with Spider-Man. I've loved many of the changes to his story over the years, but the ONE change I could never forgive was OMD/BND. That's the end of the Spider-marriage, to those who aren't familiar. And the OMIT arc drove the final nail into THAT coffin for me.

Kind of off-topic, maybe related on a meta level to TMNT, but I agree with this. I just find it ironic that to myself and many others the Mary Jane marriage became something people were fierce to defend when Mary Jane only became a fleshed out love story because Peter and Gwen were growing too close and they decided to create drama by trampling on that developed relationship. I guess a major difference though is that the Gwen to Mary Jane transition was done in a dramatic franchise defining manner while the Mephisto retcon was like a parody of executive meddling only it wasn't. I notice that TMNT renditions, OT aside, don't try to tamper with much; I can't think of a run since Mirage where Shredder dies at the start since he was established as a recurring enemy.

Whatever changes are done, I won't really mind as long as they're done well. Like, off the top of my head I prefer Officer Longer as Nobody, but I also don't really hate that Angel Bridge is Nobody in IDW because it was done well.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Exactly, again. I can't imagine why you'd want a particular franchise to stay exactly the same forever. Change can be a good thing.

But we're not really talking about change at all. Change would be an entirely radical new, bold and creative take on TMNT in a new universe with new villains and a complete reimagining from the ground up (which I'd support, if even only on a curiosity level). What we're seeing across the board now that TMNT is a corporate property is, "Let's bring back everything about the Fred Wolf cartoon because nostalgia." That's not change, per se. Not at all. That's regression, in the guise of new things. The very antithesis of your argument.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Maybe these are just signs that you're starting to realise that you can't be disgruntled old man because some comics you like spawned something you didn't like 30 years ago.

But I did like what it spawned 30 years ago. That's what got me into TMNT. I just outgrew it when I reached the age of, I dunno, 13. The discovery of the source material is what kept me along for the ride when I'd already dropped it like I dropped Bucky O'Hare, Talespin, He-Man, and all of those things when I no longer had any interest in making my mom and dad buy me toys and I was into grown up stuff and girls.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

But I did like what it spawned 30 years ago. That's what got me into TMNT. I just outgrew it when I reached the age of, I dunno, 13. The discovery of the source material is what kept me along for the ride when I'd already dropped it like I dropped Bucky O'Hare, Talespin, He-Man, and all of those things when I no longer had any interest in making my mom and dad buy me toys and I was into grown up stuff and girls.

And here's where we differ. Even though I have enjoyed reading Mirage, I think it's still very flawed and I would'nt really call most of it "Grown up stuff".

[Bry]

Originally Posted by Zak The Neutrino

My answer. Some people just don't like change. Its with any franchise that there are fans that scream bloody murder anytime someone changes something.

Just chiming in to say that these kind of comments, making assumptions about why people have their own strong opinions/preferences, come across as really patronizing.

There isn't really a problem here, and the way this whole thread was worded seemed like argument-bait to begin with. Mirage purists have their reasons to prefer what they do, and IMO, it's best to let them have their preferences without having to question their reasoning. And vice versa.

Originally Posted by neatoman

And here's where we differ. Even though I have enjoyed reading Mirage, I think it's still very flawed and I would'nt really call most of it "Grown up stuff".

Well, yeah, a lot of it wasn't. A lot of it was two guys goofing around and having fun, riffing on pop culture and learning by doing. That's a big part of its appeal.

But... read "City at War" if you haven't yet. That storyline makes the whole E&L run sing. It's all about actions and consequences and the never-ending cycle of vengeance. I'd say it's very mature - it makes a point to show that very few situations are stark black-and-white and are often more complicated than they seem, and shows a far more "realistic" and messy aftermath of the well-worn heroes/villain conflict.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

But I did like what it spawned 30 years ago. That's what got me into TMNT. I just outgrew it when I reached the age of, I dunno, 13. The discovery of the source material is what kept me along for the ride when I'd already dropped it like I dropped Bucky O'Hare, Talespin, He-Man, and all of those things when I no longer had any interest in making my mom and dad buy me toys and I was into grown up stuff and girls.

But you see, that's the issue. The opinion that the 'source material' is somehow more special than other versions is not held by everyone. Not everyone thinks that the toy commercial is bad, and people who enjoy them are not immature. Many TMNT fans discovered mirage, read it, and tossed it aside because it didn't do anything for them. Many TMNT fans kept watching the OT, he-man, Bucky, and other cartoons because that's what they liked. Not every TMNT fan who grew up suddenly decided Mirage was adult, and the OT was a toy grab. Not every TMNT fan is going to see things that way, because at the end of the day, that's what the purist view is; a viewpoint.

[Zak The Neutrino]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Yup. This, exactly. Well said. And I'm one of those middle-of-the-roaders.





Exactly, again. I can't imagine why you'd want a particular franchise to stay exactly the same forever. Change can be a good thing. Change is what got me back into TMNT after years away, when I discovered the 2K3 and Nick versions, and IDW. Granted, it was due to a fellow writer friend suggesting I revisit my OT/movie based fic and revamp it, but in doing so, I was reminded of why I loved them to begin with, and fell in love with the new versions just as much.

On the other hand, I can sort of understand the purist point of view as well- I feel that way (to a point) with Spider-Man. I've loved many of the changes to his story over the years, but the ONE change I could never forgive was OMD/BND. That's the end of the Spider-marriage, to those who aren't familiar. And the OMIT arc drove the final nail into THAT coffin for me. So, there comes a point where change for it's own sake is just- wrong. But I'm far from a purist, even there- after all, it was JMS's changes to the origin story that drew me in to begin with. (By giving it a meaning and higher purpose rather than random freak accident of nature, something I personally love, given my philosophical and spiritual leanings.)

But overall, I prefer when the franchise grows and changes, and new ideas are brought in. It keeps it from stagnating as it ages.

Your example though with Spider-man is in my opinion an extreme to what most people argue about the new incarnations. The equal to BND would be like eliminating Splinter or April from the story line all together.

Although I definitely see both your points. I personally hate Ultimate Spider-man because to me Spider-man will always be Peter Parker and I can't get into Miles.

Originally Posted by Bry

Just chiming in to say that these kind of comments, making assumptions about why people have their own strong opinions/preferences, come across as really patronizing.

There isn't really a problem here, and the way this whole thread was worded seemed like argument-bait to begin with. Mirage purists have their reasons to prefer what they do, and IMO, it's best to let them have their preferences without having to question their reasoning. And vice versa.

It's human nature for most to not like change to things they love. It happens across all franchises. Sorry I had to be the one that said what some didn't want to hear. It wasn't a slight on anyone. I didn't assume anything because I didn't say all mirage purists don't like change.

However in the short time I've been here I can totally understand why the OP posted this. From things I've read on here sometimes the Mirage Purists can come off as belittling to those that like other incarnations of the franchise. I'm not sure if that is the tone meant when they posted or if that is just the way it reads. Sometimes tone can get lost over posts in a forum.

[Venom]

Turtles is unlike most IPs out there because it didn't start out as campy,light-hearted fare like say, Batman, for instance. We got the dark, edgy, serious version first and had the campy version hit barely 4 years later.

So we had both extremes running concurrently, yet the latter held the most popularity due to the demographic it was aimed at.

That's in stark contrast to Batman, who went through 50 years of hokey camp before finally being given a more serious, grounded treatment.

Unfortunately for the Turtles, the corporate powers that be persist to entertain the notion that the only successful version for film of the Turtles is the high-threeing, jokesters, forgetting that, to date, the most successful film version remains the one adapting the comics.

The cartoon and comics are striking a good balance.
I'm curious to see how the property evolves over time, because right now is a sweet spot for TMNT in that you have a Mirage fan helming the cartoon, and mix of fans doing the comics, but in another 10 - 15 years when this generation of kids grows up and takes over the property for a new generation, which version will they want to see?

I love the Turtles in most incarnations, but want to continue seeing the Turtles embark on a serious, gritty adventure on occasion rather than having to rely on rereading the Mirage comics.

[Duke Nukem]

Originally Posted by Venom

Unfortunately for the Turtles, the corporate powers that be persist to entertain the notion that the only successful version for film of the Turtles is the high-threeing, jokesters, forgetting that, to date, the most successful film version remains the one adapting the comics.

The most financially successful film is 2k14 Bayturtles, with a $360 million profit, according to Wikipedia. 1990 Turtles made a profit of $188.4 million in 1990 dollars, which, corrected for inflation, is $341 million in 2014 dollars. Close, but not quite.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by Duke Nukem

The most financially successful film is 2k14 Bayturtles, with a $360 million profit, according to Wikipedia. 1990 Turtles made a profit of $188.4 million in 1990 dollars, which, corrected for inflation, is $341 million in 2014 dollars. Close, but not quite.

Really? I don't recall the option to watch Steve Barron's Version in 3D or IMAX at a premium.

Those numbers need some adjusting.