So what's with Mirage purists?

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by TMNachoT

The way I see, there are purist for every TMNT version. The fans of the old toon that didn´t like the 2K3 series, the 2K3 fans that don´t like the 2K12 versions, the fans of the old movies that didn´t like 2K7 or last year film.

Yes, there are. But it's only Mirage Comics fans who can also say their version is the original.

[ProphetofGanja]

hey everybody

this has become a pretty good thread, lot of good points being made.

I'm not familiar enough with the Mirage run to comment on it supposedly being objectively "better" than any other TMNT iteration. For example, I just recently learned that all four previous volumes of TMNT comics share the same continuity (that's right, right? sometimes I see conflicting information on this point).

It really all just comes down to a matter of opinion. I loved the original TMNT cartoon when I was little, but I tried to watch a few episodes recently and I simply couldn't, it was too wacky, its meant for children (and this is coming from someone who loves cartoons).

It's cool that there are enough versions of TMNT that everyone can find something that fits their taste. Personally the IDW comic is my favorite, to me it seems the most "balanced", for lack of a better word (and I know that's a matter of opinion). I will agree with Andrew though that I want IDW to do some more creating; they've been successful with re-introducing elements of prior TMNT properties but I want to see some more original characters. Old Hob is one of the best TMNT characters ever, in my opinion. And oh yeah, the Pantheon is a good addition too. I don't believe anything quite of that sort has been present in any previous TMNT comic.

Anyways, peace out

[TMNachoT]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

But I did like what it spawned 30 years ago. That's what got me into TMNT. I just outgrew it when I reached the age of, I dunno, 13. The discovery of the source material is what kept me along for the ride when I'd already dropped it like I dropped Bucky O'Hare, Talespin, He-Man, and all of those things when I no longer had any interest in making my mom and dad buy me toys and I was into grown up stuff and girls.

I discovered the Mirage comics just at the moment that I was looking to enjoy more dark serious stories, so even i met the turtles thanks to the fred wolf toons, my desire is to enjoy less funny tmnt´s comics/toons.

[Bry]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

Really? I don't recall the option to watch Steve Barron's Version in 3D or IMAX at a premium.

Those numbers need some adjusting.

That's a good point.

And don't forget that the foreign market is a bigger thing these days, and that (to my knowledge) American studios get a smaller cut of those profits. For the record, adjusted for inflation, the 1990 movie would have taken in 245,006,210 US vs. the 2014 movie's 191,204,754 domestically - so the 1990 movie performed better in North America.

The 2014 movie performed better in the foreign market (inflation comparison: 1990's 120,813,246 vs. 2014's 293,800,000). But I'm not sure what percentage of the foreign marker's profit the studio actually sees (or would have seen in 1990). Also worth noting: the inflation-adjusted budget comparison would be $24,452,456 for the 1990 movie and $125,000,000+ for the 2014 movie. That's not counting marketing budgets, either.

So... which one was really more profitable in the end? There's more to the comparison than plugging their worldwide grosses into an inflation calculator and calling the bigger number the winner.

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

Yes, there are. But it's only Mirage Comics fans who can also say their version is the original.

Well... it is. It doesn't mean it's the "best" version necessarily (I happen to think it is, but your preferences may vary) or that its original-ness has to have any weight on your own opinions. But it is and will always be the original version, and what first inspired everything that came after.

[Mewzard]

Originally Posted by Venom

Turtles is unlike most IPs out there because it didn't start out as campy,light-hearted fare like say, Batman, for instance. We got the dark, edgy, serious version first and had the campy version hit barely 4 years later.

Actually, Batman started Dark and gritty, and only went campy after the Comics Code Authority came into being and stripped the heart out of many books.

Batman killed in his early appearance. One guy in Detective Comics #27 was knocked into a vat of acid, Batman saying "A fitting end for his kind."

But still, it all depends on who's in charge and what rules they have to work with. Viacom seems focused on the sillier side as kids stuff can make some good money if done right. An adult audience is harder to milk with this kind of thing.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by Bry

That's a good point.

And don't forget that the foreign market is a bigger thing these days, and that (to my knowledge) American studios get a smaller cut of those profits. For the record, adjusted for inflation, the 1990 movie would have taken in 245,006,210 US vs. the 2014 movie's 191,204,754 domestically - so the 1990 movie performed better in North America.

The 2014 movie performed better in the foreign market (inflation comparison: 1990's 120,813,246 vs. 2014's 293,800,000). But I'm not sure what percentage of the foreign marker's profit the studio actually sees (or would have seen in 1990). Either way - there's more to the comparison than plugging their worldwide grosses into an inflation calculator.

Also worth noting: the inflation-adjusted budget comparison would be $24,452,456 for the 1990 movie and $125,000,000+ for the 2014 movie. That's not counting marketing budgets, either. So... which one was really more profitable in the end?



Well... it is. It doesn't mean it's the "best" version necessarily (I happen to think it is, but your preferences may vary) or that its original-ness has to have any weight on your own opinions. But it is and will always be the original version, and what originally inspired everything that came after.

Not to mention the budget is only a small portion of the associated costs. Net and Gross are two very different numbers.

Another important and overlooked factor - Barron's flick, and the OT are a huge part of the foundation of TMNT - and possibly the biggest influence on why people ventured out to see PDMT, and brought their kids; and also ultimately why they were so disappointed.

[Venom]

Originally Posted by Duke Nukem

The most financially successful film is 2k14 Bayturtles, with a $360 million profit, according to Wikipedia. 1990 Turtles made a profit of $188.4 million in 1990 dollars, which, corrected for inflation, is $341 million in 2014 dollars. Close, but not quite.

I should have clarified, from a budgetary standpoint. The Barron film was made on ~$13M budget, iirc.

[Candy Kappa]

PD had a budget on $125 million and reeked in $485 million, while the 1990 movie hqad a budget on $13.5 million and reeked in $201 million.

[Bry]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

PD had a budget on $125 million and reeked

It suuuure did.

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

PD had a budget on $125 million and reeked in $485 million, while the 1990 movie hqad a budget on $13.5 million and reeked in $201 million.

Yep. And in 2014 inflation approximate numbers:

1990 movie: $364 million worldwide box office - $24 million production budget = $340 million
2024 movie: $485 million worldwide box office - $125 million production budget = $360 million

Which seems like the 2014 movie was more profitable at face value, but again, it's not that simple. Since studios make less profit from international markets than the domestic market, and the 1990 movie's haul was 67% domestic while the 2014 movie's was 39% domestic... That changes things. There are a bunch of other factors too, and a lot of budgetary information that isn't public... (and alleged insider talk that the 2014 movie's budget was about $25m higher than reported...) but this very possibly means the 1990 movie was more profitable.

[biganimefan]

I have read pretty much all the posts here and some great discussion without many "flame wars" going on. Which is very nice to see.

Anyway, Mirage definitely has its purists which is fine for them. Mirage is a great comic series and the true original start on the franchise. But like all other main incarnations it has its pros and cons. Honestly the way I see it there's 10 main incarnations of the Ninja Turtles franchise right now; Mirage(including the Tales series), Fred Wolf, Archie, 1990-2007 movies(although the 2007 movie is a bit iffy for that continuity), Image, Next Mutation, 4Kids, IDW, Nick(including New Animated Adventures series), and Bayturtles.

Personally, I can find things to love about all of the incarnations(yes that even includes Next Mutation and Bayturtles which most fans on here seem to love to hate. I will agree though that they are the weakest of the incarnations).

[Commenter 42]

China was the biggest factor. Barron's TMNT didn't play theatrically in China, while PDMT did, to the tune of 60mil. Taking away that territory puts 1990 out ahead by 40 mil.

A full breakdown can be found here:

http://deadline.com/2015/03/teenage-...14-1201390448/

[Bry]

And even then, the article I linked says that US studios only get about 25 cents per box office dollar from China. So of that $60 million, Paramount only saw $15 million max.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

But we're not really talking about change at all. Change would be an entirely radical new, bold and creative take on TMNT in a new universe with new villains and a complete reimagining from the ground up (which I'd support, if even only on a curiosity level). What we're seeing across the board now that TMNT is a corporate property is, "Let's bring back everything about the Fred Wolf cartoon because nostalgia." That's not change, per se. Not at all. That's regression, in the guise of new things. The very antithesis of your argument.

Change is change, whether it's to the core origin and characters, or just to the "window-dressing" of details. Like whether Splinter is Yoshi, or just his pet. Or the addition or alteration of characters, like Krang, Karai, Ninjara, or even Hob. And for the record, IDW and Nick isn't JUST bringing back old OT stuff- they completely reimagined (your term, I believe) all of the ones they DID bring back, as well as bringing back elements for OTHER versions- Hun, Renet, Rahzar (who originated in the movies), and Angel, to name a few. And that's IN ADDITION to bringing in completely NEW ones- Koya, Harold, Kitsune, and rumor has it Bishop will appear in both the comics and the Nick toon. So we're still getting lots of changes, including a reimagining of the origin( reincarnation makes much more sense than an animal simply learning from its owner, or even from a book....) new dynamics between old characters (Shredder and Krang, or Rocksteady and Bebop) and that's just the ones that come to mind immediately. How is any of this NOT change? Change doesn't have to mean "let's scrap the whole thing and start over". It also means "let's look at it and see what works and makes good stories, keep that, and either throw out or adapt what doesn't".

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

But you see, that's the issue. The opinion that the 'source material' is somehow more special than other versions is not held by everyone. Not everyone thinks that the toy commercial is bad, and people who enjoy them are not immature. Many TMNT fans discovered mirage, read it, and tossed it aside because it didn't do anything for them. Many TMNT fans kept watching the OT, he-man, Bucky, and other cartoons because that's what they liked. Not every TMNT fan who grew up suddenly decided Mirage was adult, and the OT was a toy grab. Not every TMNT fan is going to see things that way, because at the end of the day, that's what the purist view is; a viewpoint.

Yeah, I've never subscribed to the idea that the source material has to be sacred and immutable. Just because it was a toy-grab in execution doesn't mean it doesn't still have merits on its own. There was some really good material in there, as evidenced by the fact that much of it STILL survives in some form even today!

Originally Posted by Zak The Neutrino

Your example though with Spider-man is in my opinion an extreme to what most people argue about the new incarnations. The equal to BND would be like eliminating Splinter or April from the story line all together.

Although I definitely see both your points. I personally hate Ultimate Spider-man because to me Spider-man will always be Peter Parker and I can't get into Miles.

It's human nature for most to not like change to things they love. It happens across all franchises. Sorry I had to be the one that said what some didn't want to hear. It wasn't a slight on anyone. I didn't assume anything because I didn't say all mirage purists don't like change.

However in the short time I've been here I can totally understand why the OP posted this. From things I've read on here sometimes the Mirage Purists can come off as belittling to those that like other incarnations of the franchise. I'm not sure if that is the tone meant when they posted or if that is just the way it reads. Sometimes tone can get lost over posts in a forum.

I was using Spidey as an example of how a change that is a major game-changer within the franchise can have serious negative repercussions both in-world and among fans. And yes, it WAS an extreme example. that was the point. Because that's the equivalent of going from "gritty" Mirage to "kiddy-fare" OT. It was THAT big of a change. (And it altered EVERYTHING that came before it PERMANENTLY!)

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I really don't mind the Nick cartoon. It makes me laugh, at times. And my daughter loves it. Though it's possibly coincidentally humorous how Nick and IDW are often times trying to resurrect the exact same Fred Wolf things at almost the exact same time in different ways. I don't mean that mockingly, it's just a fascinating study of almost identical intentions coming to fruition from different camps at slightly different times.

Wasn't 2012 already from the start supposed to be some kind of 1987 cartoon remake?

[Powder]

Not even close, have you even watched it?

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

Wasn't 2012 already from the start supposed to be some kind of 1987 cartoon remake?

No, the original pitch involved Splinter having died before the start of the series, forcing the Turtles to the surface to gather resources where they would meet and bond with a teenage April. Most departures from that basic set-up were probably revisions made during pre-production.

So no, it wasn't really intended to be a Fred Wolf remake, if anything the intention was to make something that had very little with the Fred Wolf cartoon. Fred Wolf elements were probably just added because more writers were familiar with that cartoon than anyhing else. I even heard that some writers wanted to give April a blog, something Nieli said no to, thinking it was pointless.

Anyway, the Nickelodeon cartoon isn't really a remake of the Fred Wolf cartoon just because a bunch of ideas from it. The things it takes from the Fred Wolf cartoon weren't even that prominent, the Nickelodeon cartoon probably has more in common with the Archie series if we're being honest.

I mean think about it, if the idea really was to do an outright remake of the show, what would that actually be like? What would the prominent things really be? I'm gonna make a list here of what I think would be the right elements for something to count as a remake of the Fred Wolf cartoon, feel free to object if you feel it's wrong:

1. The series would be almost entirely episodic in nature
2. Shredder and Krang (only one of him) would be allies with their henchmen Bebop and Rocksteady
3. The four of them would be complete goofballs
4. The technodrome would constantly be around
5. April would be a news reporter
6. It would pretty much be a sitcom
7. Most episodes would focus on Shredder and Krang
8. It would contain really, really absurd ideas and plots
9. Most characters who are not the Turtles, Splinter, the Technodrome gang and the Channel 6 crew would only get a handful of episodes if they were lucky

Now does that sound like either the Nickelodeon cartoon or the IDW series? I don't think so.

[Cryomancer]

To answer thread title: Mirage is good?

[plastroncafe]

I'm not too late to toss this in, am I?

[Weapons@theready]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I hear sometimes on comic book message boards they discuss and debate things. About stuff. And things. And stuff again.

Maybe I heard it wrong. It was an as$hole who told me that.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by neatoman

No, the original pitch involved Splinter having died before the start of the series, forcing the Turtles to the surface to gather resources where they would meet and bond with a teenage April. Most departures from that basic set-up were probably revisions made during pre-production.

I hate discovering cool things in TMNT universes ending at preprudiction?