Dragon Ball Super Episode Discussion Topic

[CyberCubed]

The only thing about Super handled poorly (not counting the animation issues during the first year), is the power scaling. God and Blue were supposed to be millions of times stronger than anything in the Boo saga (where Super Saiyan Vegito or Buu with Gohan absorbed were the strongest back then), but then Goku/Vegeta can still lose to characters weaker than them, or we can see characters like Gohan, Piccolo, Future Trunks, etc. battle alongside them.

They really should have stayed at Boo saga power levels for some time, because Goku/Vegeta should be a billion times stronger than everyone else now, but it doesn't feel that way.

[sdp]

Like the Simpsons m, dragon ball has become a parody of itself..


I consider anything after GT ended non-canon, it's all derivative of DBZ after that. DBZ had to end because it just got ridiculous with power levels, everyone knew this. The only reason GT worked was because of how it incorporated the humor of Dragon Ball into it which gave an interesting mix and it was short so it never overstayed its welcome. It also gave us the best ending we could've gotten for Goku.

Toriyama doesn't care about Super or anything anymore, he's just happy to get a paycheck and Toei is happy to get all the licensing money as well. They don't care to rehash DBZ with super. They'll continue to do silly power ups and I know eventually they'll bring SSJ4 just like they rebranded Broly and Bardock in "canon" forms and like with Broly and Bardock it'll be less interesting, since it will lack soul.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

The only thing about Super handled poorly (not counting the animation issues during the first year), is the power scaling. God and Blue were supposed to be millions of times stronger than anything in the Boo saga (where Super Saiyan Vegito or Buu with Gohan absorbed were the strongest back then), but then Goku/Vegeta can still lose to characters weaker than them, or we can see characters like Gohan, Piccolo, Future Trunks, etc. battle alongside them.

They really should have stayed at Boo saga power levels for some time, because Goku/Vegeta should be a billion times stronger than everyone else now, but it doesn't feel that way.

That's true but the problem with that is that the next enemy isn't a big deal if just regular Super Saiyans can take em down.

The problem with Goku getting Jesus plus Buddha powers to end a saga is that the next saga needs a threat that will curbstomp that or else there's no conflict.

[DarkFell]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

GT sucked. It had interesting concepts but they were executed terribly. They had all these characters and the show was mostly Goku, Trunks and Pan. Even during the final saga, most of it was Goku and Pan flying off to defeat the Dragons one by one. I still say that they missed the perfect opportunity to have all the other characters take down the weaker dragons before they all had to team up for the final One-Star Dragon. Like we could have episodes dedicated to Goten, Trunks, Gohan, Uub and Vegeta taking down the lesser dragons. Then we never saw an older Gotenks, or even completely break the mold and have maybe Gohan fuse with Uub, I mean hey, think of the merchandising.

Even though GT isn't canon, it did show some of the choices that were made by the other characters. Some of them grew up, grew old, and eventually grew tired of fighting.

Spoiler:

Since Son Goku had an appetite for quests and improving his strength, then he was a natural fit for GT.

Pan kinda felt like a wasted effort though: she was helpful, but she felt like a background character that didn't get a lot of character development. Trunks kinda suffered in the same area to some extent.

Pilaf wishing for Son Goku to revert back to a child, was just dumb, especially since he got beat by Son Goku as a child that went on an Oozaru rampage in Dragon Ball.

The corrupted Dragon gods were a neat idea, but fighting seven of them got a bit repetitive after a while.

Dr. Myuu and The Baby Saga was a bit wierd.

[neatoman]

So is anyone else worried we might not get a conclusion to the Black Freeza thing?

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by neatoman

So is anyone else worried we might not get a conclusion to the Black Freeza thing?

My guess is after Daima ends (I believe its only 20 episodes so it's a short thing), they'll make one last arc set after DBZ where Goku is training Uub, and Broly/Gohan/Piccolo and Goten/Trunks all have one last major fight with Freeza and whatever else happens in a final arc. Freeza will be erased from existence once and for all so he can't be revived from being dead yet again.

After that just show Goku being able to match Beerus in power as a way to bring things full circle to Beerus' debut and the series can end. Goku's Japanese VA is 87 years old, after she passes away too, I really don't see much point to continue.

The videogames/non-canon stuff will always go on forever obviously, but it doesn't really matter. They'll just have to replace Goku's voice in the games going forward when that time comes.

[Cowabung-Gal]

A lot of people complain about Bardock’s change in Super, going so far as to call him a “beta” just because he’s now a family man instead of the single militarist that he was in the original TV special. But I say that he’s definitely changed for the better.

In the TV special, Bardock was just like any other Saiyan: a bloodthirsty warrior who took pleasure in eradicating other worlds and could care less about what happened to his family, especially if they were weaklings with a very low power level.



When Goku (Kakarot) was a baby, he had a power level of two, at least according to the scouters, which were about as accurate as cheap non-contact thermometers. In one scene, Bardock was disgusted by his son’s low level status and even called him “garbage/scum” before running off to join his comrades on another mission, leaving the crying baby alone in the nursery.





When Bardock is cursed with the ability to see into the future, he is haunted by visions of Frieza destroying planet Vegeta and the entire Saiyan race. Desperate to change his destiny, Bardock tries to destroy Frieza on his own. Needless to say, his efforts were futile, and he was engulfed in a giant ball of energy. But right before his demise, he sees a vision of an adult Goku facing Frieza and smiles, knowing that his son will avenge the fallen Saiyan race.

While Toriyama claimed that the TV special was his favorite movie and even included a cameo of Bardock in the manga during a flashback that Frieza had on Namek, he wasn’t involved in the production of the film and it wasn’t technically canon. Years later, he would retcon the story of Bardock and show a different side to him in the Super manga as well as the Minus special chapter in Jaco the Galactic Patrolman.

In the canon story by Toriyama, while Bardock was still a Saiyan warrior that took part in the destruction of other worlds, he at least had a conscience and was capable of compassion, and he even rescued a mother and her child from being killed by the Frieza Force after being reminded of his own wife and son(s). What also set Bardock apart from the other Saiyans was his devotion to his family. Gine, Bardock’s wife, even pointed out how unusual it was for a Saiyan man to worry so much about his children, and Bardock concluded that he was influenced by Gine’s own soft and kind nature. He also said that he was constantly destroying and wanted to save something for once, like his son Kakarot when he suspected that Frieza was up to something sinister. So he and Gine sent their baby son to Earth right before Frieza destroyed planet Vegeta. Like in the TV special, Bardock tried to stop Frieza but was killed in the process.

This one scene from Chapter 84 of Super just tugs at my heartstrings:



Even after being badly injured and while struggling to even stand on his feet, Bardock still turned to warmly greet the baby Goku in the nursing capsule. You can just feel the love this man had for his family, and it is a huge contrast from the nursery scene in the TV special. Bardock knew that Goku was to be judged as lower class by Saiyan society, but he could care less. To him, family was more important than status. And it’s obvious that Goku has inherited his parents’ compassion and soft nature, as even Vegeta pointed out.

I don’t see a beta male or a Jor-El ripoff. I see the father of Goku.

[CyberCubed]

The issue is that in the original story, Goku being sent to Earth is purely by chance, meaning everything just happened randomly leading to Goku beating Freeza later. In the original special Bardock did not even know Goku was being sent into space yet, but here he and his wife purposely send Goku out. That's also why people keep bringing up the Superman parallels with Clark on Krpyton because now it's pretty much the same.

I also miss Bardock's old Saiyan crew teamates, but I guess you can say they still exist but we just didn't see them.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

That's also why people keep bringing up the Superman parallels with Clark on Krpyton because now it's pretty much the same.

Goku has always been Japan’s own version of Superman, at least since the first chapter of Dragon Ball Z, which is a sequel to Dragon Ball. Before he was basically a modern version of the mythological Monkey King Sun Wukong and Dragon Ball was a retelling of the story “Journey to the West”, then Toriyama later rewrote him as an alien with superpowers and superhuman strength but with no memory of his planet (which, like Krypton, blew up) or his blood family. He even got an alien name: Kakarot (Superman/Kal-El). So Bardock can be the Jor-El to Goku’s Superman; after all, why not? Dragon Ball has always been a parody of something, whether it’s a Chinese fantasy novel or an American comic book.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I also miss Bardock's old Saiyan crew teamates, but I guess you can say they still exist but we just didn't see them.

Well, the Frieza Force that killed his crew in the TV special also appeared in the Super manga so it’s a possibility

[sdp]

Anything not in the original DB manga is not canon, that includes Super and whatever Toriyama made after Toei gave him FU money to continue selling new stories.
Hell even the filler, movies, GT is far more canon than whatever flanderized trash Super is supposed to be. At least those original anime stories understood the characters better. GT inspite of being weak has some amazing character moments and the best ending Goku and the franchise could ever get.

The "canon" debates are dumb, I doubt Toriyama cared at his old age and bad health what happened with the franchise. He basically became Kevin Eastman that as long as he got paid he approved of anything no matter how wacky. His original vision had already ended almost 3 decades prior. If people said they liked it he didn't care if it was silly since DB had outgrown him but just like star wars the new stories are not Lucas' original vision. And if it didn't have the pseudo "Toriyama Canon" behind it I doubt anyone would choose the new Bardock/Broly over the original versions.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Originally Posted by sdp

even the filler, movies, GT is far more canon than whatever flanderized trash Super is supposed to be. At least those original anime stories understood the characters better. GT inspite of being weak has some amazing character moments and the best ending Goku and the franchise could ever get.

GT was basically wacky fanfiction that made no sense. And the best ending? You should know by now that no ending that Toriyama or anyone else could ever come up with would satisfy everyone. Personally, GT left a bad taste in my mouth, even as a kid.

Originally Posted by sdp

And if it didn't have the pseudo "Toriyama Canon" behind it I doubt anyone would choose the new Bardock/Broly over the original versions.

“Canon” status isn’t the reason why I prefer the Super versions of Bardock/Broly over the original versions.

I never really liked the original Broly, although my brother loved him when we were kids. He was a boring one-dimensional psychopath who hated Goku with every fiber of his being because the guy made him cry when they were just newborns (okay…?). And as the sequels kept coming, he became even more of a joke, with “Bio-Broly” becoming the worst DBZ film ever. Fans defend and cling onto him for nostalgia reasons and not because he is a well-written character, which he isn’t. He’s scary and ridiculously powerful, that’s all there really is to him.



(Yikes…scary 0_0)

Now Super Broly, he’s a complex gentle giant who only gets really scary when you threaten him or anyone close to him, which makes him much more relatable than the foaming bloodthirsty beast that was his original counterpart. His raw power hasn’t diminished and he’s still a formidable foe. I like his new design, personality and backstory. If anyone other than Toriyama introduced this new version of Broly, and even if he wasn’t considered to be “canon”, I’d still pick him over the original Broly because he’s that likable.



(Awww. Just look at that smile. ^_^)

[CyberCubed]

Well the original movies are not canon, with the exception of having to count the Garlic Jr. movie if you want the Garlic Jr. saga to work (just pretend Krillin acted surprised Goku had a son after for the sake of the others )

And of course, the filler has always been "canon" to the anime version of DBZ. Goku never falls off Snake Way into Hell in the manga, but the anime has several throwbacks to Hell in several seasons with the same two ogres and such. So the filler has always counted to the anime version.

The original manga from Toriyama from 1986-1995 though is the definitive canon. With the anime including Toei's filler being a strong secondary canon. Now you have everything from the Beerus movie/Super as part of official canon as well, but the manga and anime contradict each other. And of course GT and the old movies were never canon anyway

[Cowabung-Gal]

I have to admit, though, Funimation knew how to make the old movies even more appealing to American audiences.

For example:

[sdp]

lmao that's so cringey. so glad europe got the japanese ost and not some AMV soundtrack.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Originally Posted by sdp

lmao that's so cringey.

No more cringey than the church pipe organ playing in the background as Goku “miraculously” heals a bird.

[CyberCubed]

All the movie and GT villains did more harm to the franchise than good.

Toriyama only ever created a few major villains like King Piccolo, the Saiyans, Freeza and his army, the Androids and Cell, and then Boo and Babidi.

If you just look at it like it was in the manga, Dragon Ball has a villain completely different than the ones before and all serve a purpose. But Toei was lazy with the movie villains and most of them are just copies of whatever was happening in the series at the time, and the GT villains just weren't fleshed out enough to be good.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Cowabung-Gal

No more cringey than the church pipe organ playing in the background as Goku “miraculously” heals a bird.

No, it actually is more cringe. Having some weird emo-rock song play during that undermines the tone completely. I'm not even sure why anyone felt a franchise where all the characters have obvious pun names and doesn't really take itself seriously needed this type of music, even when there are serious scenes it doesn't fit.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Originally Posted by neatoman

No, it actually is more cringe. Having some weird emo-rock song play during that undermines the tone completely. I'm not even sure why anyone felt a franchise where all the characters have obvious pun names and doesn't really take itself seriously needed this type of music, even when there are serious scenes it doesn't fit.

To each his own, I guess.

[CyberCubed]

Bejita-sama....

[Cowabung-Gal]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I also miss Bardock's old Saiyan crew teamates, but I guess you can say they still exist but we just didn't see them.

Hey, Cubed, just found out something interesting!

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/2019/01/2...w-it-image-14/

Looks like they might be canon after all