Oroku Nagi: Who needs him?

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

Maybe there were already trace elements of mutagen in the sewer water that caused him to exceed his normal life span.

[Candy Kappa]

It's been mentioned a few times, but there was a story planned that explained why Splinter had such a long lifespan unmutated. He wasn't a regular rat to begin with or something.

[Duke Nukem]

Originally Posted by Masterpiece

I'm glad the Original Movie edited Nagi out of the script (yeah, Nagi was in the script for those of you who want to know). All you need is Saki as the Shredder and that's it.

I'm pretty sure he's in the Mirage comic adaption of the film, but it's been a while since I've read that.

I don't think Oroku Nagi is necessary. IDW and 2k3 both did a great job with Shredder as a character with different origins (that are still the same in a lot of key ways) where Nagi wouldn't have fit. With that said, I don't have anything against the character either, if Mirage had expanded more on their early years that probably would have been good also.

[Allio]

I wouldn't mind seeing Nagi again, but just in a "we have the whole Oroku family." Nagi as his brother, his father from IDW and his mother from the 87 cartoon, and Pimiko or Karai depending on your mood

[plastroncafe]

While Nagi does make Splinter's age a problem, it does make Saki closer to the turtles age by comparison. This is good for a couple of reasons, it makes him a more formidable foe. Less an adult beating on children.

In addition it helps to solidify just how needless all of the violence is to begin with.
Saki and Splinter are personally removed from the feud between Yoshi and Nagi, and by extension the turtles even more so.
And yet the cycle of violence continues anyway. Less for personal grief, and more for some intangible sense of honor.

[Masterpiece]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

While Nagi does make Splinter's age a problem, it does make Saki closer to the turtles age by comparison. This is good for a couple of reasons, it makes him a more formidable foe. Less an adult beating on children.

Not really.
I did my calculations upon reading the original issue of TMNT Mirage and Saki would be around 35 by the time the Turtles (aged 15) first faced him.

[plastroncafe]

You're absolutely right, I just broke out my Vol 1 #1 to check.
Though...the turtles are 13 in that issue, and not 15....which only serves to weaken my case further.

D'oh!

[miru]

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

Nagi was important to the Mirage comics, but he is of little to no importance anywhere else. The cycle of vengence is exlusive to the source material, every other version has gone the Saki=Bad, Yoshi= good route. It become the 'common mythology' of turtles lore. If a writer has a story to tell with Nagi in a particular version, then he can be used. If not, he should not be shoehorned in by the magical words 'source material'. Like any other concept, the cycle of vengence hould only be brought into a version if it suits the intended narrative of the storyteller.

And I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you look across many diffrent stories and mythological cycles, the only signifgance the 'source material' usually has is it's the first version. A 'common mythology' ususally develops out of all the various adaptations, retellings, and additions later storytellers add. If you resticted storytellers to going back to the 'source material' well, the aurthian cycle, Greek/Roman mythology and the superman mythos would all be very, very diffrent. Once the 'common mythology' of 4Kids, Fred Wolf, the movies, archie, and all the others entered the public consiousness, it can be argued that Mirage simply became another ingredient in the 'common mythology soup' that superceeded it's primacy.

Indeed, and yet, Nagi is still potentially more important than Mr. McAdam, a character not even seen in the Movie Adaptation comic. Every version has something that is forgotten in the end. Mr. McAdam seems generic enough as to be easily replaced with someone new, whereas every other character in that first issue is at least revisited within Mirage's pages. Such as Nagi returning as a vengeful phantasm haunting Shen's home, battling his brother's slayers one final time before being exorcised from this plane by them.

A-ha! Nagi actually works pretty well as a vengeful undead of some sort. Especially as a poltergeist haunting a house in Chihaya… or maybe more than just a house, what about the Chihaya Castle? Or Mount Kongo itself? How would he react to the Foot staying with him? Just imagine a mountain coming to life... Even your idea for him as Shredder II is valid to me, and I agree with it. A "The Joker with Ninjutsu" portrayal may be just as valid as the "poltergeist" one, much like how Wyrm is great either as a garbage collector, magical space jinn, or ferocious beast.


McAdam? I honestly have no clue.

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

Originally Posted by Duke Nukem

I'm pretty sure he's in the Mirage comic adaption of the film, but it's been a while since I've read that.

I don't think Oroku Nagi is necessary. IDW and 2k3 both did a great job with Shredder as a character with different origins (that are still the same in a lot of key ways) where Nagi wouldn't have fit. With that said, I don't have anything against the character either, if Mirage had expanded more on their early years that probably would have been good also.

Interestingly enough. I had the storybook adaptation of the movie as a kid, and Nagi's included in that.

[clockstomper]

Nagi plays really well into the idea of the multigenerational conflict, the endless cycle of revenge, etc. Splinter and Saki have a lot in common the Mirage continuity, it's a shame they never even spoke.

Although I prefer when the conflict is between Saki and a Hamato Yoshi who IS Splinter in some fashion (be it through mutation or reincarnation.) It seems to lead to better stories that way, it just feels the most personal. I've warmed up to Utrom Shredder over the years but I still feel disconnected from the conflict because there's too many degrees of separation. He seems pretty content to just leave the Turtles alone in Exodus, he probably wouldn't have made his way back to Earth in their lifetimes.

[Andrew NDB]

I think as soon as you remove Nagi, you take a big step towards making Oroku Saki into cardboard. Because then he's not avenging anybody or anything, or you then have to concoct something new for him to be pissed about.

[neatoman]

Yeah… Not gonna lie, "most adaptations ignore him" isn't really a strong argument for why he shouldn't exist at all. I think the closest any adaptation got to including him was Mashimi in the 4Kids show, but only in so far as depicting Yoshi's rival as a separate character from Shredder himself, the fact that he obviously didn't mean anything to the Shredder beyond a failed means to an end gives him a very different role in the story aside from the love triangle.

I get why he's not really used much, most of the adaptations are made with a child audience in mind and giving the villain a legit reason to beef may seem… Uncomfortable for children or parents. Ultimately though, Nagi is probably important to understand the Shredder's motives, otherwise he'd either fall into cartoon megalomania or become a confused mess like in the 2012 show.

[TheLabRat]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I think as soon as you remove Nagi, you take a big step towards making Oroku Saki into cardboard. Because then he's not avenging anybody or anything, or you then have to concoct something new for him to be pissed about.

Maybe it's something like an infighting between the foot clan families. Nagi is also a victim of this infighting. His death made things worse for the Oroku family, because before that, the Oroku family had already declined, and Nagi was once highly expected to revive the family. Saki wants to take over his brother's unfinshed duites while taking revenge on other Foot elders.

[DrSpengler]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

Aww yeah, this guy right here.

It was an underdeveloped plot point for the original Mirage Shredder, admittedly, but he had a sympathetic or empathetic angle to his origin story. Beyond just wanting to avenge his brother, the text even explicitly states that he was misinformed and manipulated by the Foot Clan hierarchy, making him a "victim" in his own right.

There's a lot of material in that original Mirage Shredder back story that could be used to flesh out the character. While I appreciate that Mirage didn't want to overuse the Shredder and employed him sparingly, at times it felt like a missed opportunity to mine some genuinely fascinating characterization from him.

I think it was... Tristan Jones (?) who said he even pitched a Shredder prequel story to Tales and got it shot down (might have been Ross May; my memory is foggy). Mirage editorial seemed pretty strict in their decree to leave the Shredder alone (save the Shark-Shredder, but that was explained in excruciating detail as not being the "real" Shredder). I get why they wanted to stick to that angle, but there were so many stories that could have been told that couldn't not be explored in other continuities (since, as noted, all other continuities have eliminated Nagi from the formula).

Rereading my original response from 2014 (sweet lord), I stand by it.

THAT SAID, I think the adaptations that have strayed the most from Mirage have found interesting avenues to fill that motivational void once Nagi is eliminated from Shredder's origin.

4Kids had Ch'rell, who was so far removed from any incarnation of the Shredder, with his own crazy origin and motivations, that there really was no room for a sad brother story for him. He had his own nutty stuff going on and I loved all of it for what it was. Wholly unique.

2012 Nickelodeon Shredder, I think in terms of intent (and not always execution), had something going there. Saki and Yoshi fighting over Tang Shen was there, but with the added bonus of Karai having been born to Tang and Yoshi, but abducted by Saki. He raises her as his own daughter as the ultimate F U to Yoshi, but in that span of time comes to genuinely love her as his own, as well as for her being the last piece of Tang Shen left (whom he genuinely cared for).

All the amazing pieces were there, they just didn't always get explored as well as they could. The abuse Shredder often put Karai through to keep her by his side eliminated most any sympathetic qualities to his plight. Still, there was something really unique there which filled the emotional and personal role that an Oroku Nagi would have left behind.

So I don't think removing Nagi for the sake of streamlining origins is entirely bad, I just think his personal weight has to be replaced with something. Anything.