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Old 12-02-2021, 04:33 PM   #301
Galactus
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Originally Posted by mrmaczaps View Post
If the original story never specified, how was it changed for Disney's original take? Hmmmmmm. Lol.
Because a lot of people that have a problem with the new version of Ariel being black argue authorial intent. Thing is while we don't technically know what Hans Christian Anderson had in mind when he wrote The Little Mermaid it's safe to say someone that looked like the Disney animated version wasn't it.

So if you're a person that didn't care - or didn't care to know that Disney took some liberties when it came to depicting her ethnicity in the animated version why is it such a big deal she's now black?

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Would you say the same if it was a historically black/person of color was suddenly white washed today? The problem is lack of creativity to just change any existing characters race/ethnicity to fill a quota. All of Hollyweird/Disney's recently "updated" live action flicks have been erasing/replacing white characters.
Mostly no I wouldn't and there is a more than a few very valid reasons for that. Chief among them is that even now there is a severe lack of successful mainstream intellectual properties that prominently feature non white people. When a character that is traditionally white is changed into a black person it's in the hope that in a small way corrects an imbalance. That's why it should be a bigger deal when a non-white character is made into a white one. I stress should because even today this happens far more than people realise there just isn't a market for people monetize outrage on that or to use it for more sinister reasons.

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Old 12-02-2021, 06:27 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Galactus View Post
Because a lot of people that have a problem with the new version of Ariel being black argue authorial intent. Thing is while we don't technically know what Hans Christian Anderson had in mind when he wrote The Little Mermaid it's safe to say someone that looked like the Disney animated version wasn't it.

So if you're a person that didn't care - or didn't care to know that Disney took some liberties when it came to depicting her ethnicity in the animated version why is it such a big deal she's now black?



Mostly no I wouldn't and there is a more than a few very valid reasons for that. Chief among them is that even now there is a severe lack of successful mainstream intellectual properties that prominently feature non white people. When a character that is traditionally white is changed into a black person it's in the hope that in a small way corrects an imbalance. That's why it should be a bigger deal when a non-white character is made into a white one. I stress should because even today this happens far more than people realise there just isn't a market for people monetize outrage on that or to use it for more sinister reasons.
Its racist either way, dude.

Was HCA white or brown? I honestly don't know... a quick internet search shows white people & some brown people of his region... It is different if race/color/whatever is not specified & then a new adaptation does specify because thats filling in the info gap.
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Old 12-02-2021, 07:45 PM   #303
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Its racist either way, dude.
No it isn't. Adding in a few more people of colour is not discriminatory against white people in any way.

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Was HCA white or brown? I honestly don't know... a quick internet search shows white people & some brown people of his region... It is different if race/color/whatever is not specified & then a new adaptation does specify because thats filling in the info gap.
Hans Christian Anderson was white Danish and again while not explicitly stated the land setting of the story does resemble Copenhagen. It can be assumed he meant for the humans to be Danish. Ariel and the other mer-people is a bit more debatable. Some people think for Ariel to walk among Danish people she would have to resemble them but others believe that since the undersea setting of Atlantica being very heavily based on Greek myths she would resemble ethnically Greek people. Complicating things even further is that the land setting of the Disney version is also not specified but doesn't resemble Denmark at all and seems to be some random country they made up.

So I ask; if people are okay with Disney changing the story, setting and even ethnicity of the The Little Mermaid why is Ariel's skin colour a step too far?
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Old 12-03-2021, 09:57 AM   #304
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Of course it's not racist, that's just braindead sheep talking points but whenever you think of Disney's the little mermaid you do think of that red headed Ariel. Take that away and it's just a generic little mermaid interpretation like the dozens that exist and no one cares about.
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Old 12-03-2021, 06:14 PM   #305
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If you've never cared about Disney changing Ariel's ethnicity or even cared enough to know it was changed in the 90s animated movie from the original story then I don't see why you should care about them changing her race.
Its explicitly part of Disney line of remakes of their animated features.
So it is to be expected that their new version of Ariel should be similar to the original one.

Besides, in the end, The Little Mermaid was based on a European story.
I bet you'd be jumping through the roof, if they took African story and made lead character White?

and you are still a coward, because, you are running away from any discussion.

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No it isn't. Adding in a few more people of colour is not discriminatory against white people in any way.
We are not talking about adding people of color. We are talking about replacing White people from stories created by White people with people of color.

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Hans Christian Anderson was white Danish and again while not explicitly stated the land setting of the story does resemble Copenhagen. It can be assumed he meant for the humans to be Danish. Ariel and the other mer-people is a bit more debatable. Some people think for Ariel to walk among Danish people she would have to resemble them but others believe that since the undersea setting of Atlantica being very heavily based on Greek myths she would resemble ethnically Greek people. Complicating things even further is that the land setting of the Disney version is also not specified but doesn't resemble Denmark at all and seems to be some random country they made up.

So I ask; if people are okay with Disney changing the story, setting and even ethnicity of the The Little Mermaid why is Ariel's skin colour a step too far?
I have a better question: if people would have done the same to the created by Africans, Asians or Middle Easterners would you say its nothing of consequence?
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Old 12-03-2021, 07:07 PM   #306
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Its explicitly part of Disney line of remakes of their animated features.
So it is to be expected that their new version of Ariel should be similar to the original one.
That's a better argument I suppose but all of these Disney live action remakes have taken liberties reinterpreting the animated movies I don't see how this is a step too far.

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Besides, in the end, The Little Mermaid was based on a European story.
The original is set in a country which strongly resembles 13th century Denmark and is largely believed to be that since that is were the writer is from. The Disney animated version certainly doesn't resemble Denmark. They already opened the door to changes. Also Ariel is not supposed to be from Europe; she's from an entirely fictional undersea kingdom strongly based on the Atlantis of Greek myth.

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I bet you'd be jumping through the roof, if they took African story and made lead character White?
If the characters were explicitly supposed to be African and changed to white I would be displeased yes. As I've said on this thread before black people are very underrepresented in mainstream media and have a history of being erased and having their culture stolen and co-opted by white people. That's why it's iffy when black characters continued to be white washed but not the other way around. You may not agree it's the best way but it's almost always done with the (good) intention of increasing diversity and doesn't have quite the same stain of history on it as when it's the other way around.

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We are not talking about adding people of color. We are talking about replacing White people from stories created by White people with people of color.
It's a new version and likely wont supplant the animated version in pop culture but okay I'll give you that. The problem still remains that non white people are under-represented in mainstream media and it seems that attempts to promote new or previously lesser known non white characters are often overlooked. So how do you solve the problem of giving non white characters better representation?

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and you are still a coward, because, you are running away from any discussion.
I'm engaging in discussion right now. I'm literally giving my opinion on every point you and mrmaczaps are making. There's no need for personal insults. I feel bending over backwards trying to engage in a good faith debate with two people that never really engage in good faith debates.
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Old 12-03-2021, 08:04 PM   #307
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The fact that people like The Rock, Will Smith, Chris Rock and Eddie Murphy are some of the most successful entertainers of all time - and are WAY more successful than most of their white counterparts - sort of ruins the whole "Black people are invisible in pop culture and don't get their due compared to white people" narrative.

Even in the realm of voice acting, Kevin Michael Richardson probably gets more voice work than anyone in the industry except for maybe Tara Strong. Like that dude voices almost every black cartoon character in existence, to the point where in THAT arena, if anyone is keeping black voice actors from getting work, it's him, simply because he gets every single available role.

Pretty sure Cardi B and Nicki Minaj are way more successful than most of their white contemporaries, as well, despite an aggressive lack of talent. And so on and so forth.

I mean, Barack Obama got to serve two terms as President despite having zero record to speak of AND not really doing much of note during his first term, nothing that would've guaranteed a second round. We really can't claim in good faith anymore that the system is so very evil and discriminatory. That was probably true once upon a time but it hasn't been true for a very, very long time.

It's easy to argue that "white people have a stranglehold on pop culture" simply because they exist in greater numbers, sure... but the most successful black entertainers still stand to be way more successful than the majority of white entertainers end up becoming. So the idea that black entertainers either don't get opportunities or can't become as successful (or MORE successful) than their white peers is patently and provably false.

In cases like this, though, I even see plenty of black people opine that "You don't create equality by taking a chair away from a white person and giving it to a black person. What you need to do is set more chairs at the table, period, and make sure there's enough room for everyone." I feel like that's a bit more fair way of handling such things going forward. I'm very much against race-flipping as a general rule because I just find it very lazy and disingenuous, and almost never done for any reason besides creating an Outrage Conversation. They never do it because they SINCERELY want to "make things right" with any group of people, they do it because it generates conversation when there otherwise isn't anything to talk about.

In this case, "Yet another live-action Disney reboot nobody asked for. Yawn." There IS no conversation to be had. Nobody cares about it, but it's already a given that despite not caring that everyone and their grandma will end up seeing it anyway, "Because Disney". However, in today's culture it's not just about money, it's about "buzz", and without it your movie may as well not exist. So what's the easiest way to "create buzz" out of thin air nowadays, when there's really not much else to discuss? Race-flip someone. Now your project is no longer "just another dumb remake nobody wanted", it's the latest shot fired in the Culture War. Now your movie is part of a Very Important Conversation, when just yesterday it was a "Who cares?"

In the end, it's all just another marketing tool. "Cheap heat". And it works every time, unfortunately. Which is why they keep doing it. To me, though, it will never NOT be annoying.
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Old 12-04-2021, 07:34 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Galactus View Post
That's a better argument I suppose but all of these Disney live action remakes have taken liberties reinterpreting the animated movies I don't see how this is a step too far.



The original is set in a country which strongly resembles 13th century Denmark and is largely believed to be that since that is were the writer is from. The Disney animated version certainly doesn't resemble Denmark. They already opened the door to changes. Also Ariel is not supposed to be from Europe; she's from an entirely fictional undersea kingdom strongly based on the Atlantis of Greek myth.



If the characters were explicitly supposed to be African and changed to white I would be displeased yes. As I've said on this thread before black people are very underrepresented in mainstream media and have a history of being erased and having their culture stolen and co-opted by white people. That's why it's iffy when black characters continued to be white washed but not the other way around. You may not agree it's the best way but it's almost always done with the (good) intention of increasing diversity and doesn't have quite the same stain of history on it as when it's the other way around.



It's a new version and likely wont supplant the animated version in pop culture but okay I'll give you that. The problem still remains that non white people are under-represented in mainstream media and it seems that attempts to promote new or previously lesser known non white characters are often overlooked. So how do you solve the problem of giving non white characters better representation?



I'm engaging in discussion right now. I'm literally giving my opinion on every point you and mrmaczaps are making. There's no need for personal insults. I feel bending over backwards trying to engage in a good faith debate with two people that never really engage in good faith debates.
Nah dude. You're still racist.

If people of color are under represented its because, lets stick with HCA & little mermaid, there weren't exactly a ton of those folks from around his area. Changing existing WHITE characters to any other color is just as racist as taking John Henry Irons, for example, and making him say, Danny DeVito. Plus JHI is supposed to be based off a historical figure, a black man who beat the machine driving iron for the railway, if memory serves. HCA might not have known a single African or Asian person in his time. Want to not be a racist, add new characters of different races, set it somewhere else & tell a great story beyond "hey this famous, much loved character is now Asian/African or whatever other "minority" is out there.
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Old 12-04-2021, 09:15 PM   #309
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It's a new version and likely wont supplant the animated version in pop culture but okay I'll give you that. The problem still remains that non white people are under-represented in mainstream media and it seems that attempts to promote new or previously lesser known non white characters are often overlooked. So how do you solve the problem of giving non white characters better representation?

Make an all-new story? Don't replace a character that is super famous in pop culture for being a white redhead? It's that easy. Make. A. New. Story.

Look at Moana. Look at Encanto. Look at Coco. Make. A. New. Story. Instead of piggy-backing off of something 'white', create your own new classic that will be loved for generations to come just like people currently love the original Little Mermaid.

You're asking how to solve the problem of giving non-white characters representation when the answer is slapping you in the face. It instead makes you look like you're asking 'what other white characters should we replace with non-whites for better representation?'

MAKE
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STORY.
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Old 12-04-2021, 10:51 PM   #310
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I think im not gonna discuss this racism thing , americans dont understand that we had different humor in Norway back in the day , in the 90s (Otto Jespersen was master of sarcasm , irony & trolling , that was his gimmick) & things like dressing up like a nazi was not frown upon (OJ is not rasist) , it was highly ironic/black humor or Eckbo playing a black character , sadly due to PC era Eckbo can no longer play him even though he had zero intention to offend with that character

Might as well say that Atkinson mocks socially akward people with mr Bean

Bond shouldnt be PC either , i mean he kills people as a job and if he feels like a smoke he should smoke , not cuz its cool but cuz hes Bond and feel for it

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Old 12-05-2021, 12:19 AM   #311
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Might as well say that Atkinson mocks socially awkward people with Mr Bean
Ugh... don't give these cancel-crazy woke leftist weirdos any ideas....
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Old 12-05-2021, 08:32 AM   #312
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That's a better argument I suppose but all of these Disney live action remakes have taken liberties reinterpreting the animated movies I don't see how this is a step too far.
But have they changed ethnicities or sex of main characters?

Characters are not just "bunch of information struck together". Characters exists as a whole package, sum of all of their parts, which includes their ethnicity and sex.
TMNT fans probably would struggle with that concept, though.

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The original is set in a country which strongly resembles 13th century Denmark and is largely believed to be that since that is were the writer is from. The Disney animated version certainly doesn't resemble Denmark. They already opened the door to changes. Also Ariel is not supposed to be from Europe; she's from an entirely fictional undersea kingdom strongly based on the Atlantis of Greek myth.
So?
Fictional stories, especially form the old times, usually represent lived experience (tm) of people who lived than and there. So it is natural that mermaid was depicted with a white skin color.

On that note, if she and her merfolk were depicted with dark skin color, I am sure Twatter retard would have complained that "black peoples are portrayed as alien civilization and that is "othering".

Also, I don't see you complaining about people in Indian or Asian stories being Hindus or Asians.

The why double standards for the White people?
White people don't have right for their own stories?
How about creating new stories with POCs as leads or adapting those stories, which I am sure, do exist?

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If the characters were explicitly supposed to be African and changed to white I would be displeased yes. As I've said on this thread before black people are very underrepresented in mainstream media and have a history of being erased and having their culture stolen and co-opted by white people. That's why it's iffy when black characters continued to be white washed but not the other way around. You may not agree it's the best way but it's almost always done with the (good) intention of increasing diversity and doesn't have quite the same stain of history on it as when it's the other way around.
Stop drinking this dumb cool-aid.

First, I bet you were ecstatic, when Gods of Egypt, have portrayed Egyptian gods as White? They are fictional beings, with no real ethnicity behind them, so it is only logical they can be portrayed by anyone, right?
Or is it another double standard?

Second, Whites were not the only ones who colonized Africa. Learn your history: Arabians were the biggest slavetraders during 18-19 centuries. Black people shipped to US were just a fraction of what Arabians took for themselves.

Third, Black people gleefully sold their own into slavery. Once again, educate yourself - there was no such thing as "honorable savages living in peace with nature and each other". Blacks were just as bloodthirsty and kill-happy as all other races on the planet and they gladly sold and killed their own to acquire territories and goods.

Forth, stolen? What Whites have "stolen" from Blacks?
Are you even grown up enough to understand that culture doesn't work that way?

Cultures of various people don't consist from various segregated compartments. They are in constant flux and exchange of ideas and concepts, so Blacks have "stolen" just as much from Whites, as much Whites, supposedly "stolen" from them. Point being there is no such thing as "pure culture".

Also, guess why Europeans and Arabians were able to colonize Africa and why Africans were unable to put up a resistance?

Because, Europeans and Arabians were open to new ideas. There was constant exchange and development of new ideas, which led to their progress. Whereas, Africans were basically living on their own with little to no cultural exchange and development, which led to their stagnation and inability to develop further.
So much for "stealing cultures" is bad, lol.

None of this doesn't fit your simpleminded narrative of "whites bad, blacks poor oppressed and good", but that's what it. Reality is much more complex than some infantile concepts proposed for the sake of fixing your personal complexes.

Also, race-swapping famous character, doesn't help representation. Its just makes most people go WTF. On that note, I am fairly sure, that TLM would be quickly forgotten like most other Disney remakes and "true" Ariel will stay as white-skinned red-haired.
So much for diversity!!

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It's a new version and likely wont supplant the animated version in pop culture but okay I'll give you that. The problem still remains that non white people are under-represented in mainstream media and it seems that attempts to promote new or previously lesser known non white characters are often overlooked. So how do you solve the problem of giving non white characters better representation?
It is not problem of White people to solve.

If POC want their characters, let them create them and make them cool. Superman haven't become legend "out of the box". None of famous characters did. For every famous character, which "made it" there are thousands that were completely overlooked and forgotten.

As for how to give better representation, if its really needed: create good and interesting characters, maybe? Just like everyone else, maybe?

I mean, I know that people like you and some POCs are thinking their creations should be hailed, just, because, color of the skin (which is outright Racist, by the way), but that's not it works.

You can't force people like something even, if you throw money and brute force behind.

Remember Avatar? Biggest movie of all time, arguably, yet completely forgotten after few years. None of the crazy special effects, money and promotion helped to make its story not a boring mess and its characters gripping and interesting. The same goes for totalitarian countries and their propaganda.

Point being, if you want better representation, create better characters. If character is good, they will stuck around, like Blade or John Stewart. Unlike say, black April O 'Neil.

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I'm engaging in discussion right now. I'm literally giving my opinion on every point you and mrmaczaps are making. There's no need for personal insults. I feel bending over backwards trying to engage in a good faith debate with two people that never really engage in good faith debates.
Once in a while. Once in a while.
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Old 12-08-2021, 12:37 AM   #313
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Make an all-new story? Don't replace a character that is super famous in pop culture for being a white redhead? It's that easy. Make. A. New. Story.

Look at Moana. Look at Encanto. Look at Coco. Make. A. New. Story. Instead of piggy-backing off of something 'white', create your own new classic that will be loved for generations to come just like people currently love the original Little Mermaid.

You're asking how to solve the problem of giving non-white characters representation when the answer is slapping you in the face. It instead makes you look like you're asking 'what other white characters should we replace with non-whites for better representation?'

MAKE
A
NEW
STORY.
Pretty much this. Just thinking, Disney owns Fox and might have the rights to the Gargoyles franchise, and they had a Black female cop in there, so why not bring this series to life on the big screen?
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