Is 2003's TMNT The Most Pure Expression of TMNT?

[gdawz]

Fully acknowledging that there is no TMNT without the magic of both Laird and Eastman, as the series evolved past those first issues where they were working in tandem, I admittedly tended to like Laird's take on the characters and tone over Eastman's. I liked Laird's volume 4 comics. And so I do think that the 2003 series, at points - as has been pointed out, very much thanks to Laird's oversight at the time - is a very good embodiment of that style. To the OP's wording, it is hard to image a more "pure" version of the franchise that's also mass media. However, I think the final season of 2012 had some AMAZING episodes that are some of the most fun and TMNTy representations of the franchise that were way beyond the younger-geared demo for that series that got sneaked in b/c the show was on its way out.

The difficulty with this question, to me, is that the "true" TMNT (if we qualify that as the Eastman and Laird issues of volume 1) is a relatively small slice of things overall. So beyond a very literal adaptation of those books - which I think would / could be a fun, and possibly profitable miniseries if marketed properly - I don't know if I'd know what "pure" looks like until I see it.

[Coola Yagami]

Kinda too bad TMNT/Batman mostly happened cause it counted as a DC movie so DC/WB did it.

Kinda wish we had some other non-Nick company do a mini movie series adapting TMNT 1, Raphael # 1 for the Casey into, anything related to Leo# 1/Silent Partner/Escape/Return to NY and City at War, though City War might have to be split into maybe 3 movies or so with some sort of subtitle or whatever.

Other than idk... some modern stuff and possibly pizza, cause god forbid they made a TMNT anything without pizza and some variation of dudeMikey, have the overall theme, grit and whatnot be as true to Mirage as they possibly could.

I mean it took what, 30 or so years to finally see Raph knee a guy and break his nose, and Shredder impale people in an animated feature?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by sdp

But if you pitch a show "Let's do a mirage adaptation" and the studios green light it, it'll obviously be more faithful than say 2k3 but there would be tons of studio interference and not letting the people involve have full creative control despite being more "faithful".

Laird's TMNT 2k3 might not be as faithful to mirage as a future adaptation could theoretically be but he had enough creative control to do whatever he wanted in a kids tv show. Yes, 4Kids and Playmates had influence too but they would fight between each other, nowadays that would never happen, it's what the studio wants it to be.

So even if not as faithful to mirage, it's as pure as TMNT can get outside of the original Mirage run since Laird had a lot of creative control and he's one of the co-creators. Any future adaptation will only be that, an adaptation with studio meddling even if "truer" to mirage.

Sort of/not really. And he's been pretty transparent in how that went on his blog. Lloyd sending him E-mails about episodes the writers would write (after they were already written), and him sending back notes... hopefully they get heeded, if not no biggie.

Now, he could have stomped a whole mudhole into each and every one. On every level. Maybe he should have, here or there... none of my business. He seemed happy with what emerged. But I feel like he didn't want to be That Guy™.

[Leo656]

I kinda feel like once they agreed to "No Bebop, Rocksteady, Krang, or Cowabunga", Laird was so relieved that he felt like asking for anything else would be pushing it.

I'm on record, I think Mirage Vol. 4 works better than Ambien, but I've always been curious what Laird, or Eastman and Laird, preferably, would have ever done if they were allowed to steer a TMNT cartoon their own way. Obviously they lost the war with the FW cartoon pretty much before it started, since they were so enchanted by actually getting paid that they pretty much gave over full control of the brand without even fighting very hard to keep it, as it so often happens. But man, I wonder what a true, authentic "Eastman and Laird's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" animated series would have been like? Like if they had the same creative control that Trey Parker and Matt Stone have over South Park. That would probably have been pretty incredible.

[D-ray]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Because they took something that is tonally dirty and angry and triumphant and made it into camp and slapstick nonsense. With a bunch of whirling dervish toy things and no teeth.

I know, I know, "B-b-but they showed Shredder's head getting chopped off, just like in the comics!"

Ch'rell's robo-suit, you mean? "B-b-but we didn't KNOW it was the body suit at the time! It's edgy, man!"

Etc., etc.. No. Just no.

I still don't think It's a valuable reason to be so angry about it. They had to adampt it in some way, and I still think they did it nicely.

By the way, is the lack of violence that angers you or just the fact that they remade the Shredder's origins?
Because, talking about violence the show gets even deeper than that.
Did somebody forgot Baxter Stockman or what? A man that after every failure just gets his body parts removed as punishment and torture?
Shredder's getting decapitated is not even close to what really hides this show in terms of controversity (coff coff NIGHTMARES RECYCLED coff coff).

If it's for the adamptation...
I could be slightly disappointed, but still they nicely managed the story of Ch'rell (maybe excluding the "regenerating worms" thing that I just thought it was b******t).

[PizzaPower1985]

Truth be told, I was never crazy about the Ch'rell Shredder origin thing either. It worked for the series, I guess, and made it different but I would have preferred a straighter Mirage adaptation.

[Leo656]

Ch'Rell Shredder is one of those things that I didn't mind so much in THAT show... but would only ever wanna see in THAT show.

The whole thing just seemed like a double-ended compromise. Part One being, "Well, we can't use 'Krang' because Pete Said So... but what if we have an Evil Utrom who's basically Krang, AND have him ALSO be Shredder?!" And Part Two being, "We get to show Shredder's head being cut off so we look like we're 'edgy'... even though we're going to immediately walk it back by going 'NAH, it's a cyborg body, silly!'"

I'm almost positive that was 100% of the decision-making process regarding Ch'Rell Shredder. It's a way to go. "Krang" was so important to the FW cartoon that if you had no reference or trace of him at all in 2K3, people would've bitched a ton. So you have "Kinda Krang But Not Really" and also make him Shredder. Makes sense. I wouldn't have done it, but I get why they went with it. I just wouldn't really wanna see it again in another version.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

I feel that the whole 'shredder gets his head cut off but not really' would have worked better if they didn't show him walking up and picking his head back up. It would feel slightly less like a cop out, then when shredder appears later, it would appear more as a shock to the viewers

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Whatswiththeheadbands?

I feel that the whole 'shredder gets his head cut off but not really' would have worked better if they didn't show him walking up and picking his head back up. It would feel slightly less like a cop out, then when shredder appears later, it would appear more as a shock to the viewers

Completely understand and agree but we have to remember... this is still, as good as a lot of us think this show is/was, it's still a cartoon made for kids... made to essentially sell toys.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Whatswiththeheadbands?

I feel that the whole 'shredder gets his head cut off but not really' would have worked better if they didn't show him walking up and picking his head back up. It would feel slightly less like a cop out, then when shredder appears later, it would appear more as a shock to the viewers

I agree, but it's censorship stuff.

It's like whenever Batman would beat up some dude or toss him into a lake. The cartoon always had to take the extra time to show the guy still breathing so you know he's just knocked out and not dead, or show the guy emerging from the lake so we know he's ok and not just assume he drowned.

That's why it surprised me the 2K12 show had the balls to flat out imply Leo really did behead the Shredder. No robot suit this time either.

[The Turtle Terminator]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

I agree, but it's censorship stuff.

It's like whenever Batman would beat up some dude or toss him into a lake. The cartoon always had to take the extra time to show the guy still breathing so you know he's just knocked out and not dead, or show the guy emerging from the lake so we know he's ok and not just assume he drowned.

That's why it surprised me the 2K12 show had the balls to flat out imply Leo really did behead the Shredder. No robot suit this time either.

I think they only got away with that because it was the zombie/mutated Shredder

[Zulithe]

2003 might be more pure in its adaptation (at least in the earlier seasons), but that may be because that is more what it set out to do. 2012 deliberately decided to look at all the TMNT comics and adaptations (both live action and animation) and cherry pick the things that Ciro felt most defined the DNA of the franchise as a collective, and then use that as a basis. I think that's why I personally admire it more.

[The-Shredder]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

I agree, but it's censorship stuff.

It's like whenever Batman would beat up some dude or toss him into a lake. The cartoon always had to take the extra time to show the guy still breathing so you know he's just knocked out and not dead, or show the guy emerging from the lake so we know he's ok and not just assume he drowned.

That's why it surprised me the 2K12 show had the balls to flat out imply Leo really did behead the Shredder. No robot suit this time either.

If you watch Rogue in the House, you'll notice that the fate of all those Foot Ninjas on the Kuraiyama is left uncertain. Did they die in the explosion? At least we know they can swim based on past episodes and one of the Raphael bios.

[D-ray]

Originally Posted by Whatswiththeheadbands?

I feel that the whole 'shredder gets his head cut off but not really' would have worked better if they didn't show him walking up and picking his head back up. It would feel slightly less like a cop out, then when shredder appears later, it would appear more as a shock to the viewers

But wait, you mean just showing him completely fine in Secret Origins?
I mean, it would have feel quite out of context.
"Oh look he is fine lol"

Originally Posted by Zulithe

2003 might be more pure in its adaptation (at least in the earlier seasons), but that may be because that is more what it set out to do. 2012 deliberately decided to look at all the TMNT comics and adaptations (both live action and animation) and cherry pick the things that Ciro felt most defined the DNA of the franchise as a collective, and then use that as a basis. I think that's why I personally admire it more.

I gotta be honest, I hated how they mixed up everything from past adaptations. It looked like a freaking mess to me.
I'm ok with giving some references to old shows or comics, but copypasting random aspects from the past doesn't really sound like a NEW adaptation.
It looks like that the entire serie ALWAYS needs to accomplish the nostalgics in order to have atleast some view, which is kind of bland.

[Leo656]

I feel like with any seriously long-running franchise that has had multiple, oft-conflicting iterations, at some point it only makes sense, or even becomes expected, that newer versions will strive to include "a little bit of everything". It's perfectly natural and maybe even "right" to do so because you want to honor what's come before. Especially if what came before was very popular and strongly resonated with large portions of the fanbase.

That said, I feel there is great wisdom in taking a delicate and graceful hand in what's included or referenced, and how. Regarding the Nick show, I understood the What and Why of what they were going for, but I didn't always care much for the How in what I saw of it.

On the flip side, there's a strong case to be made that if the 2K3 series had included more FW elements - for better or worse - then it most likely would have been more popular and more fondly remembered. *I* was fine with it being almost a complete and total "F*** You" to the FW series, but a lot of fans were not. I tried so, SO hard to "sell" that series to my TMNT fan friends, and NONE of them would give it the time of day when it was airing (I have no idea if they ever watched it since). To them, it was simple: "No Krang? No Technodrome? No Bebop and Rocksteady? No PIZZA, even? Jesus, it's not even Ninja Turtles, anymore! F*ck that, I ain't watching that sh*t."

We all know that's a bad take. To some of us, that's even an infuriating take. But it does stand to reason that certain things become "expected" in future versions once they become "iconic", and that fans in turn feel a sense of betrayal if they're not included. So it becomes a game of, you have to break new ground, you have to tell your own story, but you also have to, on some level, cater to the audience's expectations or they're quite simply going to turn on you. And then your "new version" simply won't last very long.

Me, personally, I'd love it if NOT every TMNT version from now on HAD to have tons of pizza jokes, but... realistically, you do have to. You don't "Have To" have to, but you do have to. Same with Krang, or Bebop and Rocksteady, or even Casey Jones... to the majority of the audience, it's not a "complete" TMNT universe if those things are not represented. They're too entrenched, by this point. Whether or not they add anything of substance to the larger story... well, it can be argued that no, not really. But some people simply aren't going to give A Thing a fair chance if they don't feel that their tastes are being catered to. That's just how it is.

So since TMNT has had so many different "universes" already and certain things have become "critical" to at least the majority of fans - even if they weren't there from the beginning - it only stands to reason that every single version from now on will always be some type of "TMNT Jambalaya", to borrow one from Andrew. It's simply unavoidable. And it's arguably the "right" thing to do.

BUT, I think it should be done with a little bit of grace and restraint, ideally. And since nothing is ever perfect, older things that had room for improvement should be "improved" as much as possible if you're going to dig them out of mothballs. Bebop and Rocksteady as violent, savage rage monsters who are actually dangerous? I could live with that, since they're inevitably going to show up in everything forevermore. But I'm totally over them being bumbling clowns and if that interpretation were to be left in the dust, I'd be fine with that. Just for one example.

On the flip side, whenever I did see the Nick show re-use any FW concepts or characters... I honestly thought they were better done in FW, usually. So again, sure, borrow, recycle, whatever you wanna call it... it's gonna happen from now on no matter what... but don't just chuck it all in a blender and think that's good enough. That's how I look at it.

[Coola Yagami]

I kinda saw it as a comparison to He-Man 2012. That show had better art and animation and showcased ACTUAL FIGHTING but still had He-Man, Skeletor and the rest of the crew.

TMNT 2k3 had better art and animation and ACTUAL FIGHTING, but to the people that never read the Mirage comics and only knew the FW, it looked like they scrapped everything ninja turtles and only kept the most basic characters.

Idk. It's kinda like why did Sailor Moon and FMA get actual redrawn remakes while Dragonball Kai was just a lazy DBZ cut and paste, ya know? People draw comparisons.

[Leo656]

Man, I just started watching this again from the beginning for the first time in a long time, and it's a lot better than I remembered. And I already liked it a lot. I really like the action/humor balance, every character's individual personality, the level of menace displayed often by the villains, the "dramatic tension" shots... I really like everything about it.

So far the theme song is my least favorite thing, but it's tolerable. The music in general is really good.

I'unno, talking about it lately made me wanna rewatch it and I'm really glad I did. I know it doesn't stay this good, but eh.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Leo656

On the flip side, there's a strong case to be made that if the 2K3 series had included more FW elements - for better or worse - then it most likely would have been more popular and more fondly remembered. *I* was fine with it being almost a complete and total "F*** You" to the FW series, but a lot of fans were not. I tried so, SO hard to "sell" that series to my TMNT fan friends, and NONE of them would give it the time of day when it was airing (I have no idea if they ever watched it since). To them, it was simple: "No Krang? No Technodrome? No Bebop and Rocksteady? No PIZZA, even? Jesus, it's not even Ninja Turtles, anymore! F*ck that, I ain't watching that sh*t."

That IS this show's strongest recommendation AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED. TMNT 2K3 gives non-comic book readers a window into Mirage. And even tho this series is not an exact adaptation, it allows one to see Mirage TMNT vicariously through a colorful Saturday morning cartoon. A big "F*** You" was what the 87 toon needed. Older TMNT fans should not be able to find much value in the 87 toon. It was a great introduction to the franchise for many of us. It had its place. But people grow up. We want to see TMNT in all their gritty, rugged glory. Did this show provide that? Not entirely. But it did in places. It's why I started this thread... because I don't think 2K3 can be topped as a cartoon now that it's in the hands it's in. Because I don't think 2K3 is completely looked at the way it should be looked at. As Peter Laird's attempt to steer his baby away from... babies.

I'll admit to being a big fan of the 87 pilot. But I'm a TMNT movie fan (1990) and a TMNT comics fan before I'm a TMNT cartoon fan. I think it needs to be understood that 2K3 is a course correction. And god I wish we had more of those because the 2012 show took us right off course again.

[Leo656]

I'm halfway through Season 1 so far and I really, really liked all the little "straight off the page" bits they pulled from Mirage for in the very first couple episodes. I know they couldn't maintain that and I'm not sure they even should've kept it up over the long run anyway, but when it's really prominent in those first few episodes it's so, so cool. Whether it's literally the same exact scene or just a bit of dialog, I couldn't help but smile every time and be like "Dude, that's so awesome." I don't even love Mirage but I do like the first few issues of it and I LOVE that kind of fidelity.

I remember it having a lot of action but it's a remarkably "physical" show. Not just lots of fights but lots of movement, lots of physical interaction between characters and stuff like that. It really jumped out at me just how much more they could get away with in 2003.

Regarding the action and the violence, as I said before I really like the way it's framed, shot, and executed. Some of the times when they cut away and only show you some of the stuff in silhouette or whatever, like Casey bashing those Purple Dragons in the alley during his debut episode, are pretty strikingly violent for a kids show circa 2003, even. But so, so far beyond anything the first show was ever allowed to do. There's a legit sense of "menace" and danger that they first one just couldn't really even come close to due to the Standards & Practices of the era.

When it debuted, I remember immediately feeling like it was the TMNT show I wished the original could've been, and so far I feel the same. I just feel like the action/comedy balance is much better, and it really does have a lot more humor than I remembered it having. It's just more actually "ha-ha" funny and less "Roll eyes 'Oh, you'...." kinda funny. Lots of deadpan humor and stuff, too, which I like. And when they do have a "Cowabunga" or whatever it's always done ironically and they lampshade it as being silly. It's cleverly self-aware at times when it comes to its FW references.

I'unno, I wasn't sure if my memories would hold up - and I know the quality dips as the seasons go by - but so far these first dozen episodes were mostly awesome. If everything that said "TMNT" since then were up to this standard I definitely wouldn't cry about it.

[Leo656]

Almost done with the "Notes From the Underground" stuff. Can anyone confirm or deny whether this was loosely inspired by the Jack Kirby-influenced stuff that was prevalent in the Superman books in the 70s and early 90s? All the "Evil Factory"/"DNAliens"/"Underworlders" stuff? I don't see how it couldn't have been.

I like it, it just really jumped out as being so similar that it makes me wonder. Also, this show is full of very blatant comic book references and Laird was a story consultant. It probably was but I'd love confirmation.