The Technodrome Forums

Go Back   The Technodrome Forums > General Forums > General Discussion > Books, Comics, and Other Literature

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-25-2021, 04:03 PM   #2181
MikeandRaph87
Jedi Master
 
MikeandRaph87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: JLA Satellite Headquarters
Posts: 10,213
This post is for Leo656, I understand that you define Superman from Man of Steel( 1986) to Superman's Return (1993-1994) about 7 years worth of material.

What is your take on Lex cloning himself after developing cancer and passing himself off as his own son for about 3 years? Also, what about The Matrix posing as Supergirl?

Also, I define Batman from 1967-1984 roughly Barbara Gordon's 1st appearance to Jason Todd becoming Robin. What is your take on my favorite comic run? It's roughly 17 years.
__________________
Michelangelo: This looks like a job for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles!
Raphael: Sheesh, Mikey this ain't a cartoon!
MikeandRaph87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2021, 07:22 PM   #2182
Leo656
The Franchise
 
Leo656's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: nWo Country
Posts: 24,021
Well, the easy one first. I was a big fan of Matrix Supergirl, in part because I was a big fan of DC's "No More Kryptonians" edict at that time. I liked how they managed to fit both a new Supergirl AND Superboy into the mythos, without having them be tied to their Silver Age incarnations. I was never a big fan of either the "Superman's Cousin" Supergirl or the "Young Clark" version of Superboy. The old Superby stories were corny as hell (and Clark as Superboy was a giant retcon anyway) and Kara Zor-El's character has frankly NEVER been all that interesting. I've gone on at length about it in the past, but Kara never had any identifiably personality in the past, and when they brought her back a few years ago the best they could do to give her one was make her an unlikeable, super-emo brat. And I didn't like that either.

But I was a huge, HUGE fan of the three-part "Supergirl Saga" which ended John Byrne's run, with Superman bringing Matrix back to our Earth from the Pocket Dimension. The early stories with Matrix being all brain-scrambled and having a mental link with Superman, to the point where she/it thought they WERE Clark at one point, were some really interesting stuff. Then when she came back to Earth during the "Panic in the Sky" storyline and picked up as Supergirl, that started a really cool run for the character. I always liked how hard they worked to really make her as different from Superman as possible, down to having a completely different power set and everything. It circumvented a ton of problems the Kara version always had, specifically being that she's really just Clark with a skirt. Matrix was much more of a unique character, despite her origin being more complicated (allegedly the reason she was written out and replaced with Kara back in 2004).

At first, I wasn't as much a fan of the whole bit where Matrix merged with Linda Danvers, but honestly that entire Peter David series was probably the single best Supergirl run of all time. They managed to introduce some of the old Silver Age mythology in a new and cool way, and having Matrix merge herself with someone else felt like a natural evolution for her/it, since as an artificial life form Matrix had always had some major existential crises going on anyway, so all the stuff about her journey to try and become a "real" person and obtain a human soul were supremely interesting.

So yeah, huge fan of Matrix Suprgirl, and she's always been my favorite version of the character (with the Matrix/Linda hybrid a close second). They did so much evolution with that character over more than 15 years, to the point where simply erasing her from ever existing and just replacing her with plain old Kara again felt like a huge, HUGE step backwards. I was open to it, but then the whole Emo Brat stuff mixed with the "Zor-El was secretly a bad guy and sent Kara to Earth to kill Kal" angle just ruined it for me. Especially when they couldn't even keep that straight and went back and forth on it every week. One week, Kara was sent to kill Kal... next week, it was false memories... next week, she WAS a sleep agent but had managed to "overcome her programming"... the week after that, it was all some Black Kryptonite hallucination... I'll be honest, I tapped out pretty early on all that. They really botched it.

Just like with Barry and Jason Todd, I never saw any Kara stories post-2004 that made me GLAD that she was brought back and kicked her replacement to the curb, because just like with Barry and Jason I thought their replacement character was much more interesting.
-------------

As for Lex being a clone and passing himself off as Lex Jr., I'll be honest it all came off a lot better than it probably sounds on paper. Lex was dying of cancer (brought on by his Kryptonite ring), and they needed a way out of that plotline, so they had him fake his death in a plane crash. Without Lex to keep Metropolis running, the city started falling apart until his "son" miraculously showed up to take the reigns and fix everything.

This was rather ingenious on Lex's part, because firstly, it created an environment where the people of Metropolis were suddenly more sympathetic to Lex than they'd ever been before, seeing as how once he was gone everything started to collapse. But furthermore, Lex Sr. was fairly well-known as a scumbag in spite of his public persona, so by passing himself off as his "son" he managed to get a fresh start and clean slate. He managed to fool everyone, even Superman, into thinking he was a super-nice guy with nothing but pure intentions, and this allowed him to operate unfettered. Previously, he always had someone keeping one eye on him, and whenever anything bad happened Lex was usually the first one under suspicion; by using the "Lex Jr." persona, he was able to remove all suspicion from himself and keep Superman or anyone else from hawking him. It was honestly pretty brilliant.

I liked it. It added a whole new dimension to the cat-and-mouse between Superman and Lex. It was a very "Lex" thing to do. And, when the time was right, it allowed him to re-emerge and claim anything evil he'd ever been linked to was really his "evil" clone, and in turn get ANOTHER clean slate (with nobody but Superman being aware as to what had really happened).

I had missed like a year's worth of Superman comics when all that was going on, so when I picked them back up again I was a little confused about the whole "Lex Jr." business, but it didn't take long to get caught up since his underlings were in on the scam and also his thought bubbles explained it frequently. So I think in like one or two issues I was all caught up on what was going on with that. I thought it was very creative.
-------------

Also, I do think the Superman books were pretty much at their BEST through '94 or so, but there were still a lot of good-to-great stories after that and through 2000 or 2001. After that it got spotty. But in the late-90s and early-2000s you still had some stuff like the Dominus plotline or the "King of the World" story that were very good. They lost a little momentum around 1994 but it's not like everything ground to a halt.
-------------

As far as the Batman stuff, it wasn't a bad run. I have some issues from back then; they're fine. It was definitely a better era for single-issue stories, but honestly I always find the 80s and 90s Batman stories to be far more memorable. The 70s were just too "conventional" for me; stuff like "Riddler robs a bank, Batman stops him, next issue it's The Penguin, rinse and repeat." They were written well enough but most of it was pretty "vanilla".

All my favorite pre-Crisis Batman stories are collected in the "Greatest Batman Stories Ever Told" trade paperback, as well as the "Greatest Joker Stories Ever Told" companion volume.

It's not like I outright dislike the Silver Age; it's just that I grew up in the Post-Crisis era when everything had a lot more depth and sophistication; even as a kid, everything Pre-Crisis just came off as super-simple and one-dimensional. Most of the DC comics before 1986 had only a little more depth than an episode of Super-Friends; I was much more intrigued by the stuff people like Byrne, Ordway, and Starlin were writing at the time.
__________________

"I left some words quite far from here to be a short reminder...
I laid them out in stone, in case they need to last forever..."

"But hey... I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know."
nWo Tech: The Official Thread Poison of the Technodrome Forums
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxr...awnHgDz1ceDcfA

Last edited by Leo656; 10-25-2021 at 07:28 PM.
Leo656 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 11:49 AM   #2183
MikeandRaph87
Jedi Master
 
MikeandRaph87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: JLA Satellite Headquarters
Posts: 10,213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo656 View Post
Well, the easy one first. I was a big fan of Matrix Supergirl, in part because I was a big fan of DC's "No More Kryptonians" edict at that time. I liked how they managed to fit both a new Supergirl AND Superboy into the mythos, without having them be tied to their Silver Age incarnations. I was never a big fan of either the "Superman's Cousin" Supergirl or the "Young Clark" version of Superboy. The old Superby stories were corny as hell (and Clark as Superboy was a giant retcon anyway) and Kara Zor-El's character has frankly NEVER been all that interesting. I've gone on at length about it in the past, but Kara never had any identifiably personality in the past, and when they brought her back a few years ago the best they could do to give her one was make her an unlikeable, super-emo brat. And I didn't like that either.

But I was a huge, HUGE fan of the three-part "Supergirl Saga" which ended John Byrne's run, with Superman bringing Matrix back to our Earth from the Pocket Dimension. The early stories with Matrix being all brain-scrambled and having a mental link with Superman, to the point where she/it thought they WERE Clark at one point, were some really interesting stuff. Then when she came back to Earth during the "Panic in the Sky" storyline and picked up as Supergirl, that started a really cool run for the character. I always liked how hard they worked to really make her as different from Superman as possible, down to having a completely different power set and everything. It circumvented a ton of problems the Kara version always had, specifically being that she's really just Clark with a skirt. Matrix was much more of a unique character, despite her origin being more complicated (allegedly the reason she was written out and replaced with Kara back in 2004).

At first, I wasn't as much a fan of the whole bit where Matrix merged with Linda Danvers, but honestly that entire Peter David series was probably the single best Supergirl run of all time. They managed to introduce some of the old Silver Age mythology in a new and cool way, and having Matrix merge herself with someone else felt like a natural evolution for her/it, since as an artificial life form Matrix had always had some major existential crises going on anyway, so all the stuff about her journey to try and become a "real" person and obtain a human soul were supremely interesting.

So yeah, huge fan of Matrix Suprgirl, and she's always been my favorite version of the character (with the Matrix/Linda hybrid a close second). They did so much evolution with that character over more than 15 years, to the point where simply erasing her from ever existing and just replacing her with plain old Kara again felt like a huge, HUGE step backwards. I was open to it, but then the whole Emo Brat stuff mixed with the "Zor-El was secretly a bad guy and sent Kara to Earth to kill Kal" angle just ruined it for me. Especially when they couldn't even keep that straight and went back and forth on it every week. One week, Kara was sent to kill Kal... next week, it was false memories... next week, she WAS a sleep agent but had managed to "overcome her programming"... the week after that, it was all some Black Kryptonite hallucination... I'll be honest, I tapped out pretty early on all that. They really botched it.

Just like with Barry and Jason Todd, I never saw any Kara stories post-2004 that made me GLAD that she was brought back and kicked her replacement to the curb, because just like with Barry and Jason I thought their replacement character was much more interesting.
-------------

As for Lex being a clone and passing himself off as Lex Jr., I'll be honest it all came off a lot better than it probably sounds on paper. Lex was dying of cancer (brought on by his Kryptonite ring), and they needed a way out of that plotline, so they had him fake his death in a plane crash. Without Lex to keep Metropolis running, the city started falling apart until his "son" miraculously showed up to take the reigns and fix everything.

This was rather ingenious on Lex's part, because firstly, it created an environment where the people of Metropolis were suddenly more sympathetic to Lex than they'd ever been before, seeing as how once he was gone everything started to collapse. But furthermore, Lex Sr. was fairly well-known as a scumbag in spite of his public persona, so by passing himself off as his "son" he managed to get a fresh start and clean slate. He managed to fool everyone, even Superman, into thinking he was a super-nice guy with nothing but pure intentions, and this allowed him to operate unfettered. Previously, he always had someone keeping one eye on him, and whenever anything bad happened Lex was usually the first one under suspicion; by using the "Lex Jr." persona, he was able to remove all suspicion from himself and keep Superman or anyone else from hawking him. It was honestly pretty brilliant.

I liked it. It added a whole new dimension to the cat-and-mouse between Superman and Lex. It was a very "Lex" thing to do. And, when the time was right, it allowed him to re-emerge and claim anything evil he'd ever been linked to was really his "evil" clone, and in turn get ANOTHER clean slate (with nobody but Superman being aware as to what had really happened).

I had missed like a year's worth of Superman comics when all that was going on, so when I picked them back up again I was a little confused about the whole "Lex Jr." business, but it didn't take long to get caught up since his underlings were in on the scam and also his thought bubbles explained it frequently. So I think in like one or two issues I was all caught up on what was going on with that. I thought it was very creative.
-------------

Also, I do think the Superman books were pretty much at their BEST through '94 or so, but there were still a lot of good-to-great stories after that and through 2000 or 2001. After that it got spotty. But in the late-90s and early-2000s you still had some stuff like the Dominus plotline or the "King of the World" story that were very good. They lost a little momentum around 1994 but it's not like everything ground to a halt.
-------------

As far as the Batman stuff, it wasn't a bad run. I have some issues from back then; they're fine. It was definitely a better era for single-issue stories, but honestly I always find the 80s and 90s Batman stories to be far more memorable. The 70s were just too "conventional" for me; stuff like "Riddler robs a bank, Batman stops him, next issue it's The Penguin, rinse and repeat." They were written well enough but most of it was pretty "vanilla".

All my favorite pre-Crisis Batman stories are collected in the "Greatest Batman Stories Ever Told" trade paperback, as well as the "Greatest Joker Stories Ever Told" companion volume.

It's not like I outright dislike the Silver Age; it's just that I grew up in the Post-Crisis era when everything had a lot more depth and sophistication; even as a kid, everything Pre-Crisis just came off as super-simple and one-dimensional. Most of the DC comics before 1986 had only a little more depth than an episode of Super-Friends; I was much more intrigued by the stuff people like Byrne, Ordway, and Starlin were writing at the time.
Obviously, I only know the cliff notes version of the whole Death and Return of Superman opposed to having read it from the first page to the last. It's just too big to know every bit unless you are a collector of Superman comics in particular. My investment came in the destruction of Coast City so as an outsider I saw Mongul as the big bad who used the new villain on the block Cyborg Superman. I would not have guessed it was the other way around. That can be a problem for those who are picking up Green Lantern: Rebirth and such things are referenced.

I wanted to pick out the Lex cancer/passing himself off as his own son when he is in a cloned body thing and The Matrix as Supergirl because both look like convoluted messes to an outsider. I was curious of your perspectives on them. I still prefer the pre-crisis Supergirl. I assume the one we have had since 2004 is meant to be her? It feels more like the third interpretation of the second most known Superman family member. Barbara Gordon lost her best friend. Casually Comics, the same channel that will cover Whatever Happened to The Man of Tomorrow has a few videos of the original Supergirl that might interest you. Like Barry or Hal in your words I guess you could call her 'vanilla'. Hal overcame his 'vanilla' status and became what I like to think of as Maverick meets Obi Wan. All it took was Emerald Twilight and a decade wait. Though it looks like around Action Comics Weekly roots of what we would know Hal as were seen.
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...mics+supergirl

A solid majority of my favorite Batman stories come from the late 60s through the early 80s'. I like it being just Bruce, Dick, and Barbara. The Batman: The Animated Series inspiration was largely from this period as well. Heck, I want a book dedicated to this period. Not Bruce by himself like Legends of the Dark Knight, but the three of them. So many excellent stories did not need to be supposed epics with consequences like every single run is now. 'Where Were You The Night Batman was Killed?' in Batman#291-#294, 'The Laughing Fish' in Detective Comics#475-476, Six Days of The Scarecrow' in Detective Comics#503, 'The Lazarus Affair' from Batman#332-#335 among others. Complex and meaningful yet not endless epics with so many extended characters that I care nothing for. Denny O'Neil, Len Wein, and Steve Englehart are the porridge just right if you will.
__________________
Michelangelo: This looks like a job for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles!
Raphael: Sheesh, Mikey this ain't a cartoon!
MikeandRaph87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 10:16 PM   #2184
Leo656
The Franchise
 
Leo656's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: nWo Country
Posts: 24,021
The entire Death, Funeral, and Return of Superman arc is collected in a measly three, easy-to-find TPBs.

There's no way to say it nicely, anyone by 2021 who hasn't read them has nothing to blame but sheer laziness, and considering how it's still considered one of the most seminal DC storylines ever published, it's a pretty inexcusable thing to have missed.

Absolutely anything in comics looks like a convoluted mess to anyone who hasn't read This or That. The easiest solution to that is always simply, "Just read the books; it's all in there."
__________________

"I left some words quite far from here to be a short reminder...
I laid them out in stone, in case they need to last forever..."

"But hey... I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know."
nWo Tech: The Official Thread Poison of the Technodrome Forums
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxr...awnHgDz1ceDcfA
Leo656 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
batman, bendis, crisis of infinite sjws, dc comics, doomsdaycock, infinite cucks, superman, wonder woman

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.