DC Relaunching AGAIN

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Yeah, the Batman books were pretty much the sole outlier. DC kept them mostly self-contained but everything else in the DCU was pretty well-merged. And Batman showed up elsewhere a whole bunch, too, it's just that the events of those stories were rarely mentioned in his own books and vice-versa.

I think they were just really "protective" of the Batman line at that point, since people were already giving them some sh*t for the inconsistencies between the main Batman book and Detective Comics. They probably figured it best to limit the cross-pollination to avoid any further issues.

Yeah, and I mean, they were right. Back then I could only afford a book or two a month, so I'd never be able to buy 10 or so a month to keep up with some large overarching plot that crosses over among series.

[Leo656]

I mean you didn't really have to buy everything, it just rewarded you for doing so since the stories were a lot richer since it felt like they actually had an over-arching affect.

I mostly just read the Superman and Batman books as they were coming out, and JLA sometimes, myself, at least until '93 or so. But they'd always have a little asterisk and a note telling you what had happened in other books, and that made you wanna check them out.

Like in the JLA story with Starbreaker, Guy was still a Green Lantern when the story had started, then they'd told him to f*ck off and scoot when he was being his usual self, so he left the story for a bit, and then when he came back at the end of the story he was in his "Reborn" outfit with Sinestro's ring and the little box would be there like, "See 'Guy Gardner: Reborn' and Guy's solo series for details!" And it just really made you want to go check those out, too, to see what you'd missed.

I only had a few bucks to spend every month myself, but if you knew how to play the game you could work around it. Books were $1.25 each but the convenience stores would end up unloading whatever didn't sell to a liquidator or whatnot. There was a bookstore over here like 20 minutes away, not a comic shop but a regular bookstore, that would get these unsold issues right from the 7-11s or newspaper stands, and just a month or two later you could get these practically-new comics for like a quarter or fifty cents.

So even though I could only afford to grab the Superman and Batman stuff right off the rack, once a month or so my Dad would take me to the bookstore and I'd be able to get a whole stack of "almost-new" issues for just a few bucks. I got a LOT of stuff very quickly (and cheaply) that way.

Gotta know how to play the game. Anyway, yeah, you didn't "have" to read the entire DC line, but it was arranged in such a way that you felt better and had a lot more fun if you did.

[MikeandRaph87]

Coola, Joker needed cash after all of his assets were seized following the event of The Killing Joke so he went abroad for illegal weapons trade to build back up his funds. That is why he was in Ethiopia of all places for story sake. In doing so Iran, following the Iran Contra Affair allowed for a meeting with The Joker and he left the meeting Ayatollah an ambassador to exempt him from the murders of Shelia and Jason. This story made The Killing Joke continuity, which originally it was not intended to be. Due to DC fearing it would upset people in reprints it was renamed a fictional Middle Eastern country, but its Iran.

Originally Posted by Leo656

Yeah, the Batman books were pretty much the sole outlier. DC kept them mostly self-contained but everything else in the DCU was pretty well-merged. And Batman showed up elsewhere a whole bunch, too, it's just that the events of those stories were rarely mentioned in his own books and vice-versa.

I think they were just really "protective" of the Batman line at that point, since people were already giving them some sh*t for the inconsistencies between the main Batman book and Detective Comics. They probably figured it best to limit the cross-pollination to avoid any further issues.

The final two pre-crisis runs saw Batman and Detective Comics weaving storylines throughout with the same writer, first Gerry Conway then Doug Moench's first run. Batman was the last of the titles to fully immerse into post-crisis. It started really murky bringing back the thought dead Matter Hatter Imposter and then Magpie and Mime fighting Batman just before Year One. I guess it was allowed to go to Batman#400 and once that number was reached then enforce it.

There are early examples of continuity between the books such as in 1969 when Bruce and Alfred relocated from Wayne Manor to Wayne Enterprises Penthouse. There plots introduced and left hanging for the sister book to follow up on in its next issue. So the Bat books had some interplay with each other even if not outside the greater DCU. Only rarely did it such as when other characters guest starred from Elongated Man popping up a few times in his early days to the retcon that had Zatanna disguised as a witch to The Weather Wizard's appearance and much later Captain Boomerang showing up a couple of times as well as The Gentleman Ghost, King Faraday, and Doctor Thirteen.

[Leo656]

Yeah, the discrepancies and separation between Batman and 'Tec pretty much only started creeping in with Jason Todd. He had a pretty different personality between the two books, so at one point they sort of stuck him in one book and kept him out of the other one for a while, and as a side effect the two books each started mostly doing their own thing, which carried on more or less until Knightfall.

At the time I was reading the three (and then four) monthly Superman books, they were very tightly intertwined week-to-week a lot of the time, even if they had their own individual arcs running parallel, so it seemed a bit strange to me that Batman and 'Tec were entirely separate. There was some good and bad to that approach. 'Tec was better than Batman, for a while. Like "Mud Pack", that was a great f*cking story.

And then there was "Shadow of the Bat", which was entirely it's own thing most of the time but still had some phenomenal stories. The opening arc, "The Last Arkham", is definitely one of the best Batman stories ever. And of course "Legends of the Dark Knight" was "negative continuity" by design, and just focused on doing interesting Batman stories without any concern if they were consistent, even with each other.

So it's like, tight continuity isn't necessarily "mandatory" across the board, but in the grand scheme of having a "shared universe" it helps, is all.

[Coola Yagami]

Ironically, the Keaton movies got me to buy the comics. Kid me was like 'ok so Batman is goofy on TV (Adam West) but threatening and bad-ass in the movies (Keaton) but how is he in the actual comics?

So kid me, having never read the comics mind you, saw the comics Batman as kind of a mix. A more serious and threatening Batman fighting people that actually want to murder him and not just beat him up like the movies but dressed in blue like in the West show.

And it was perfect timing for me too. Almost back-to-back we had issues with the Penguin, Catwoman and the Riddler but also interesting stories with the NKVDemon. I still like how the story opened with Batman knowing every corner, every alleyway of Gotham, but now he was on the streets of Moscow trying to track down the killer that has the home field advantage.

Man, those were the days. I liked a Batman that was bad-ass but not super-perfect and back up plans on top of back up plans. Back then his outfit was made of cloth, so Batman had to actually dodge bullets and whatnot. Nowadays his outfit is pretty much Iron Man with Bat ears, even has Alfred talking in his head as if he were Jarvis.

That one issue of the Legends of the Dark Knight where he was physically broken inside and barely able to move but still putting on the scary tough guy act as he faced a guy from the other side of the room that could have shot him right there. Batman played it up and the guy was so scared he was fumbling with the box full of casings that Batman took that chance to take him down.

[Leo656]

Yeah, lest we forget he first met Jason Todd (in revised continuity) when Jason was jacking the Batmobile's tires. NOW that'd be impossible since the car's generally a goddamn armored tank with all kinds of tasers and self-destruct technology if anyone tries to mess with it, and back then it was just a souped-up convertible.

And as you mentioned, "Bat-God" wasn't a thing yet. He got hurt a lot, made mistakes during fights, got suckered or outsmarted occasionally... and it actually made the stories a lot better, I feel. People always say Batman is "the most realistic super-hero" because he's "just a regular guy who's trained a lot", but... no, that all stopped around 1996 or so. Before THAT, it was mostly true. After Morrison's run on JLA, particularly "Tower of Babel" where it was revealed he had all of those Top Secret files on the JLA so he could take down any of them anytime he wanted... from then on, he was "Bat-God", and the whole meme about "Batman + Prep Time Beats Everyone" became the standard. And I actually think that kinda sucks. There's no drama in that.

Some of the best Batman stories of decades past simply couldn't have happened at all if the current-day iteration had been around. He's too "perfect" to allow for some of the things that had happened, back then.

I mean, consider Barbara Gordon getting shot. If it were a story taking place NOW, as she was one of his closest allies Bruce would have had Barbara's apartment all tricked out with scanners and sensors and face-scan tech and alarms so that Joker never could have even gotten in the building, because Bruce is just that paranoid and overly-prepared for every possible scenario. If someone younger who's only familiar with the Batman stories of the past 20 years goes back and reads anything from earlier, they'd be like "How did this happen? Batman wouldn't have let that happen, he'd know to do This and This and This..."

At one point it was still pretty realistic, like as time went on he learned from his mistakes and got better. But then it went way off the deep end into "This guy has backup plans for his backup plans and even entire backup 'personalities' just in case", and it's like a f*cking joke, now.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Leo656

At one point it was still pretty realistic, like as time went on he learned from his mistakes and got better. But then it went way off the deep end into "This guy has backup plans for his backup plans and even entire backup 'personalities' just in case", and it's like a f*cking joke, now.

Yeah, the whole back up personality thing is just way too damn far. Plus he deluded himself to actually thinking he is Batman 24/7 to the point where if he's asked his name with the Lasso of Truth on him, he's still say 'Batman'.

Yeah yeah I know the whole 'Batman is the man and Bruce Wayne is the mask' but Batman isn't his birth name, the Lasso of Truth isn't gonna care what you call yourself.

[Leo656]

Sheeeit, if Wonder Woman tied ME up with that Lasso, she'd take it right back off after about 10 seconds once I start talking about all that nasty sh*t I'd do to her.

"Y'know, maybe the truth ISN'T really so important right now, after all..." is what she'd say.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Sheeeit, if Wonder Woman tied ME up with that Lasso, she'd take it right back off after about 10 seconds once I start talking about all that nasty sh*t I'd do to her.

"Y'know, maybe the truth ISN'T really so important right now, after all..." is what she'd say.

There was a comic where Power Girl was handing the lasso of truth back to her and Wonder Woman and asked where she's off to now that their adventure was over. Still holding the rope, Power Girl blurted out she was going home to masturbate while thinking about her.

That was a legit comic book panel LOL. I know I showed that one to you, lmao.

[Leo656]

I forgot, better send it again. Just to make sure, y'know?

EDIT: I did some Googling, apparently it's edited and she doesn't actually say that in the real comic. Awwww.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I forgot, better send it again. Just to make sure, y'know?

EDIT: I did some Googling, apparently it's edited and she doesn't actually say that in the real comic. Awwww.

https://strangenewwords.wordpress.co...eroically/amp/

I own the issue in question. It is apart of the too short Brave and the Bold (2007) book. Issue 7 to be exactPower Girl tells Wonder Woman she is going to the Fortress of Solitude to murder Superman. It was a fan edit that went viral.

[Leo656]

You know she does anyway, though. Either that or Diana goes home and pops one out to Power Girl. Can't blame either one of 'em.

I mean, we know for a fact Diana's swishy, that's canon. So she probably thinks about Kara, I mean c'mon. We don't know if Kara is, but... c'mon, it's Wonder Woman. Who wouldn't wanna bang Wonder Woman?

That's hot. That's a hot way to live.

The real question is, who jags it more often while thinking about Power Girl? Diana or Wally West? I mean "Wants To F*ck Power Girl" was like Wally's entire character in Justice League Europe. That was kinda weird.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by Leo656

You know she does anyway, though. Either that or Diana goes home and pops one out to Power Girl. Can't blame either one of 'em.

I mean, we know for a fact Diana's swishy, that's canon. So she probably thinks about Kara, I mean c'mon. We don't know if Kara is, but... c'mon, it's Wonder Woman. Who wouldn't wanna bang Wonder Woman?

That's hot. That's a hot way to live.

The real question is, who jags it more often while thinking about Power Girl? Diana or Wally West? I mean "Wants To F*ck Power Girl" was like Wally's entire character in Justice League Europe. That was kinda weird.

Wally and Francis wanted different things, Francis to live a normal life while Wally wanted to honor his legacy and be a hero in the open. He had a fling with an older separated scientist and then Linda Park came into the picture around 1992 when Waid took the title? So he was ogling Karen before he was dating Linda,right?


Speaking of Power Girl, what was with the alien virgin pregnancy that seemingly came out of nowhere and was forgotten just as quickly? I never read any behind the scenes on this.


Which of the Legends of the Dark Knight arcs that I picked up did you get as well?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

The real question is, who jags it more often while thinking about Power Girl? Diana or Wally West? I mean "Wants To F*ck Power Girl" was like Wally's entire character in Justice League Europe. That was kinda weird.

Hal Jordan actually did bang Power Girl in JLE.

[Leo656]

I believe there was some overlap as far as timeframe where Wally may have been dating Linda and also making crass remarks about Power Girl. It was roughly around the same time but I'm not sure how much overlap there really was, I'd have to dig everything out and check cover dates.

I always forget that Power Girl started going by "Karen" after a while instead of Kara. Whoops.

I don't know the "why" of Power Girl's weird pregnancy right in the middle of Zero Hour, I just know they retconned the kid out of existence immediately afterwards and never mentioned him again. I wouldn't mind knowing exactly what the point was supposed to be, but I doubt we'll ever really know.

I mean, there's this article which "explains" the entire thing as best as can be...
https://www.cbr.com/things-that-turn...gin-pregnancy/

...But I haven't found anything yet that explains what any of the writers/editors were thinking or planning with that whole thing.

I'm guessing there was some staff meeting where they thought it would be a neat idea for one of the female heroes to have a baby, and picked Power Girl since she didn't have a solo book or any significant storyline going on, but they never really had a plan. The entire thing seems REALLY thrown-together and made up along the way... especially the midpoint reveal that Power Girl was some kind of robot, and then just as quickly was not.

I'm remembering why I missed most of that whole thing. I recall as a kid thinking JLE was pretty bad, so I just stuck with JLA.

I don't remember what Legends of the Dark Knight books I have, they're in the storage room and I can't get to them. Not that many, really. Whenever I bought back issues it was 99% Batman and 'Tec, very rarely any of the spin-offs. Off the top of my head I can only recall owning "Gothic" and "Shaman". Maybe "Masks", that sounds familiar. What was the one where it's presented that Bruce's "Batman" career was imaginary and then turns out to be some bad guy screwing with him? I can't remember the title but I remember reading that one a few times, a long long time ago.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Hal Jordan actually did bang Power Girl in JLE.

Actually not true, apparently! As the above article explains, they simply "shared a moment" but shortly after Power Girl explicitly says that they didn't have sex. Hal even says the same thing, reminding her that she had told him she could only have sex with someone "if she was in a real relationship".

So apparently they simply kissed and the panels were arranged to make readers think/assume that they did have sex, but then later they revealed that no, they actually didn't.

I wouldn't be shocked if it was originally scripted so that they DID, though. I'd expect that the point was for there to be some conflict about whether Aquaman or Hal was the father of her baby, but Editorial probably squashed both of those ideas, and so being stuck the JLE writers were like "screw it, it was her Atlantean grandfather using screwy magic to impregnate her" because they had no other explanation handy.

But no, apparently Power Girl and Hal didn't actually have sex in JLE. But I bet the original intention was for that to have been the case. Officially, though, no.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I forgot, better send it again. Just to make sure, y'know?

EDIT: I did some Googling, apparently it's edited and she doesn't actually say that in the real comic. Awwww.

Aw crap. Another dream shattered.

I just know in the New 52 she banged Mr. Terrific. Whether they knew each other's identities wasn't clear. The funny thing is it's kinda implies Power Girl likes to have her fun with regular guys too, not always someone with super powers. But like, how can she bang normal guys without hip thrusting them into mush?

[MikeandRaph87]

Oh, great now I have 'Shattered Dreams' playing in my mind!

LotDK#1-5 is 'Shaman' by Denny O'Neil, I picked it up because of my love of O'Neil's late Silver and Bronze Age stories more sp than this actual arc. 11-15, is 'Prey' a classic Hugo Strange story. 28-30, is 'Faces' an interesting Two Face story. 65-68, is 'Going Sane' exploring what Joker would do without Batman, which I believe that you mentioned.79 is a standalone Christmas themed tale, with great characterization, 100, retelling of how Dick joined Bruce's crusade. 109-111, features The Riddler by Steve Englehart, despite the villain and writer the concept of Bruce's spirit possessing various bodies is weird.127-131, is Batman meeting Green Arrow for the first time, a little Brave and the
Bold by O'Neil. 137-141 is 'Terror' the sequel to the Hugo Strange story that has Scarecrow team up with him. 142-145, is Joker going between alliances with Ra's al Ghul and Batman, 149-153, 'Grimm', the only arc to feature Robin.192-196, 'Snow' retelling of the first encounter with Mr. Freeze. 201-203, 'Cold Case' vs Mr. Freeze. Annual#5, Man-Bat origin retelling. Halloween Special'93,'94,'95 with Loeb and Sale.

As you can see my interest is in the villains and original sidekicks. The series had too many random serial killers and nobody threats.I realize that it advertised as a true solo Batman book, but what is the harm in doing stories updating Bruce/ Batman and Dick/ Robin as a team? It so lost around 16 issues forced to cover Knightfall, No Man's Land, and War Games instead of it's intended format. I like what I picked up and it's a cheap series to collect but it is not something I want to have the whole series of, rather cherry pick stories as I did.

[Leo656]

Robin is always controversial because too many people see the character as a "cheesy relic of the Golden/Silver Age" rather than "the thing that keeps Bruce sane, a reminder of the more idealistic person he used to be and the entire reason he became Batman in the first place".

Stories like "A Lonely Place of Dying" and BvS illustrate what becomes of a Batman without a Robin. He just sinks deeper and deeper into "the war" and becomes consumed by violence and trauma because he has no tether anymore to his more idealistic side. He absolutely needs Robin for balance.

Too many people do not understand this, and they outspokenly hate the character and even the concept, and so a lot of media go to great lengths to downplay or ignore the Robin character because they know if they include him they will be mocked and criticized for it. Go anywhere on the internet, and you'll be inundated with comments about how "Robin is Stupid, Batman works best as an angry loner." That's them projecting, and it says more about them than it does the character(s).

This was noticeable in the Arkham games, up until the last one. As awesome as they are, the first three almost completely erase the "supporting cast" and focus only on Batman and his villains and how they parallel each other. Robin only shows up in the main game of "Arkham City" for one scene, except for the DLC, and the developers admitted "We kind of didn't want to even use or talk about Robin, because we know how many people hate the entire concept and we weren't sure if they'd sh*t on it" (I'm paraphrasing).

Which made "Arkham Knight" a very pleasant surprise, as the entire theme of the game is how Batman needs not only Robin, but his entire supporting cast in order to do the job properly, and the entire game is as much about the sidekicks as it is Him. Jason, Dick, Tim and Barbara are vital to the entire plot of the game, which was a huge 180 after the first three games either only had them pop up in cameo or not even be mentioned at all as if they didn't exist. Which is one of the reasons why, to me, Arkham Knight is the best overall game in the series.

But yeah, part of why the "LotDK" book was created, was to capitalize on the post-Batman '89 fanaticism for the character and particularly the "brooding loner" interpretation people at that time professed to want most. So it makes sense that Robin and the others would have minimal involvement, as frustrating as that can be.

There's always going to be a healthy number of fans who simply want Batman to be an angry recluse with no friends. I don't like that take, and I think it says a lot about Those People, quite frankly. But nonetheless, they exist and they're many in number. So obviously a lot of Batman material will be made more for their tastes than others.

[Coola Yagami]

One thing to note was that back then Keaton Batman came out and the comics went up in sales. You get one that makes huge bucks like End Game.... Nobody is flocking to the comic shop.