Would you agree with the assessment that the overarching story is bad?

[neatoman]

I think I have watched this show all the way through at least three times, once when it was airing and binged it at least twice since. And no matter how I slice it, I can't help but to think the the story it's trying to tell over the course of the whole thing just isn't very good, if anything it's outright bad.

The most frequent problem is that so many of the characters journeys don't really come across like a natural progress, so often they seem as if they would be going in a certain direction but the writing just forces them into another just because it would alter the intended status quo. There is that old thread I made about April's dad constantly being abducted, mutated and "killed off" until the writers just kind of pretended he doesn't exist, which I suggest is because if they followed the idea of April being underage and living with her father, the natural consequence is that his influence would likely impact her dynamic with the turtles which they wouldn't be able to commit to. But April's dad is really just one example, many similar things can be said about most major characters in the shows. Baxter is another strangely written character in the show, he's introduced as a disgruntled man who got fired and doesn't really seem that, in particular because he dressed in an ineffective homemade exoskeleton and it was only upgraded by luck. Then the next time he appears, he suddenly has the funds to make countless MOUSERS and acts more like the evil character he was in the comic, maybe not too yarring yet but it certainly raises some questions. Eventually he's abducted by the Foot, flees, is abducted again and is transformed into a fly (for almost no reason I might add). You'd figure this make him hate Shredder and try to undermine him at every turn, but instead this makes him a loyal lapdog and claims he didn't turn himself back when did get cured because he wanted to remain a mutant, even though that is completely contradicted by the mutation episode itself.

I could go on about more individual characters not making much sense, Bebop and Rocksteady being fairly competent and independent characters when they first appeared as humans, only to be turned into mutants unwillingly, becoming loyal to Shredder for almost no reason and having their personalities instantly overridden by something that resembles the FW characters. In particular I hate how Karai is written in the show, but let's move on.

The Kraang's role in the series is also something that frustrated me a lot about the story. It seemed to me that despite being treated as a serious threat in finale episodes, it doesn't really work because the overwhelming majority of plans they try to pull off is goofy nonsense that just wouldn't ever work. There is also the odd thing that despite seemingly being dealt "devastating defeats", it doesn't ever seem to reduce their role in the show to any meaningful capacity, which is partially explained by the time in their dimension being much faster which allows them to rebuild quickly but even after this is revealed it's still treated as if they can suffer major defeats. Not to get into too many details here, but it's really bizarre that they treated the Technodrome that was sunk as a major loss even into the season 3 finale despite having established that the Technodrome was just one of countless.

Like I said, I could go on but this might be sufficient detail for an opening post and It might be too hard to read if I add more here. In short, the story is pretty sloppy, forced and somewhat contradictory, it's really hard for me to say it's in any way good.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Part 1

I would disagree.

I will say to start that this is my favorite of all the Turtles cartoons. I would agree that it's not perfect. And in several cases, I can point to outright flaws that I find quite annoying. But I don't think those flaws outweigh the good elements, and I believe that when you look at the whole picture, the story is overall cohesive, and quite good (though ultimately, any assessment is going to be somewhat subjective; it will always come down to personal taste). Regardless, I think the pieces of the show (mostly) come together, and tell an overall good story.

First of all, let's consider what the overarching story is. In this show, the rivalry between Splinter and Shredder is the emotional core of the show, and the foundation upon which the story rests. The Kraang are hugely important to the background of the show, and initially drive the plot forward, but they're a more external threat; it always comes back to Splinter and Shredder eventually, and then in turn shows how the turtles grow and respond to the impact it has on their lives.

Between the 5 seasons, the main plots are as follows:
(Understanding that the conflict with Shredder is always there, until Season 5)

Season 1: The First Kraang Invasion, and the battle with the Foot.

Season 2: Collecting the scattered Mutagen, Karai, and the Second Invasion.

Season 3: Northampton, Defeating the Kraang, Searching for and trying to Save Karai.

Season 4: Stopping the Triceratons, and finishing the fight with Shredder.

Season 5: Admittedly a post-script season, but one which could be charitably looked at as "Figuring out how to be on their own."

Beyond the overarching plots, there are numerous subplots woven in at various points, such as April's overall development into a ninja, but I'll talk about those as I come to them. To begin, I'll say that the plotting in Season 1 and 4 is the strongest, Followed by Season 3, 5, and 2. Not counting that Season 5 is essentially an anthology of stories, I think of the core four, season 2 has the weakest plot, and I will fully admit that it felt like the show was spinning its wheels throughout the whole middle part of the season.

As I mentioned, at its core this show is about Splinter and Shredder, and how the turtles have to ultimately deal with it. As such, it’s not like the 2003 show where it’s building towards a grand prophecy and ultimate battle, but more the story of their life, and the events that happen in it; everything leads to other things, but not all of it is directly connected in the same way. It’s simply the next thing that happened in their life, and how they dealt with it. As such, the storytelling is fundamentally different in terms of its structure, because the main plot is less so the events, but more how the characters deal with the events.

Season 1 is very tightly plotted. Everything in that season ends up being relevant sooner or later, and there's very little "fluff" (a problem which again, I think season 2 and to a lesser degree season 3 has more of). In this season, the problem you mentioned with April's dad is not really a thing yet; his only role is to be someone they need to rescue, and his absence allows the turtles to interact with April more and build up the character dynamics. Likewise, one thing the show excels at is building up the characters and concepts in piecemeal fashion. For instance, having Bradford and Xever around as humans for a few episodes before becoming mutants, introducing the Rat King ahead of his becoming the Rat King, and saving the Shredder fight for 9 episodes in, and using it in a dramatic fashion very effectively.

I think the show very effectively builds up the conflict between both Shredder and Kraang, introduces Karai and setting up foreshadowing for her arc later, merging the three plots by the halfway point, and finally bringing in the Technodrome, while also answering the mystery posed at the beginning of the season regarding April and her Dad, and setting up material for later.

When we get to season 2, the initial arc shows the turtles having grown overconfident from their last victory, and paying for it. Likewise, the Kraang themselves, though still present, go onto the backburner for a bit. Their ultimate goal, remember, is to terraform the earth, and to do that, they need the mutagen to work. They had been trying for a while, with April being their latest experiment and attempt, and one that nearly worked. But when that failed, they had to take what they learned from it and keep working at it. Likewise, with Splinter now knowing the truth about Karai, his and eventually the turtles’ main goal is showing her the truth.

Karai’s plot forms the backbone of season 2, whose season 2 conclusion (with Karai getting mutated, ultimately due to Shredder’s own hubris) furthers his worsening insanity and delusion, and pays off much later. By the end, of course, the Kraang come back, and like the beginning of the season set up, the turtles aren’t able to win this one. Season 2 had several episodes about humbling the turtles, and this is where it pays off.

Season 3, I will admit, annoyed me when it first came out. I hadn’t yet read Mirage, and the months-long delays made the Northampton arc drag. But it’s much better on rewatch, and having read Mirage since the first time I watched the show, I could appreciate more what the point was and what it was trying to do the second time around. It’s also an important point in the turtles’ own development, as it’s the first time they really had to be on their own, which calls forward to the eventual death of Splinter. Season 3 and 4 both do this, forcing the turtles to act on their own, because thematically the show is preparing for when that finally becomes a reality with Splinter’s permanent death by the end of Season 4.

Anyway, because the Kraang used up most of their mutagen supply, when the turtles eventually beat them, it forces them back for a while. (Though this is where one of the more major flaws comes in; Mikey accidentally creating Super Retromutagen that can convert regular retromutagen is a clear example of the writers writing themselves into a corner and giving themselves an out). The conflict with the Foot, specifically with saving Karai, becomes the main plot (Actually, this is where a second major flaw comes in; after spending tons of time trying to cure her, establishing that the traditional method wouldn’t work, they just have Baxter do it offscreen. That was also stupid). Eventually, the Triceratons show up, it connects back to the Kraang plot, and the Kraang are well and truly dead by the end of it; with Kraang Prime dead, the hivemind is freed, and they go back to being Utroms, which is further confirmed in season 5.

But now, the turtles are alone again, having once again lost Splinter, and forced to act independently to save the world. Season 4 has a very clear plot: get the pieces and stop the Triceratons from using them. Through lots of twists and turns in what I consider to be a very enjoyable run of episodes, they’re ultimately successful, and they’ve got Splinter back, who severely injures Shredder, and momentarily grants them some peace. (And here’s two more flaws, back to back: the sloppy way they got rid of the time duplicates, and revealing Fugitoid is alive, undermining his sacrifice, and the conclusion of his individual arc, only to never use him again). Eventually they reconnect with Karai, who wants to push herself into someone she feels is worthy of Splinter by taking down Shredder, and pushing away the others in the process, an arc that mirrors some of Splinter's earlier behavior and Raphael and Leonardo at different times throughout. This eventually concludes in Shredder finally losing the only thing he had left, his humanity, and going all out to kill Splinter and end it for good, which he succeeds in doing. I’ve written about it somewhere else, but Shredder in this show also has a very long and fairly nuanced arc chronicling his delusion and overall worsening descent into madness, losing everything along the way and being more and more unwilling to take any responsibility, until there’s nothing less and it finally gets him killed. This season is the culmination of that as well. The turtles, with no one left but themselves, finally are able to face Shredder, and this time they kill him.

The point that I’m trying to make with all this is that ultimately, there are many different cohesive themes that run throughout the show, clear arcs for many of the characters, and an overall cohesive direction. Besides the emotional foundation of Splinter and Shredder, the show’s main theme is preparing the turtles for a world where they don’t have Splinter, where they have to act on their own, and becoming the kind of people who can do that, who can carry on and persevere. This is foreshadowed throughout. The events and the battles they fight, the enemies they work again, are just the vehicle for them to make that change. WHAT happens is less important then HOW they deal with it; it’s just the events of their lives. They start the series naive, reckless, and more unsure of things, and end it (ignoring Mutant Apocalypse, because I still don’t like that special as much more than an elseworlds) as much more mature, and able to face life alone. Raphael and Leonardo, I would say, have the strongest arcs overall between the four of them, but the themes are there, and everything is building up to the eventuality that comes to pass in season 4.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Part 2

Beyond that, some of the points mentioned make sense if you look at the bigger picture, but this post is long enough, so I’ll focus on one in particular. Baxter Stockman, who I will agree is somewhat underused, has a clear arc that I think makes sense. He’s incredibly arrogant to start, and though still smart, not nearly as smart as 2003 Baxter. That Baxter could build his own stuff, while we consistently see with this Baxter that his greatest strength lies in reverse engineering and adapting existing technology, which he mostly gets from the Kraang. He starts off with poor gear. When he shows up later with the Mousers, it’s shown that he’s been stealing other technology, and given the setting and the appearance, we can safely say that the Mousers are in part derived from Kraang tech, further reinforced by reusing the Stockman Pod Armor. Shredder captures him to use for his skills, and once again, we see him struggle to build Xever’s legs, but he’s able to do it with Kraang tech. Everything from this point on that he builds is reverse engineered from Kraang tech. Now, he gets abused by Shredder, leaves, then is eventually recaptured. It was mentioned that he was turned into a fly for no reason, but I think there’s actually a very clear reason: for Shredder to punish him for screwing up, and to further control him, leaving him with nowhere to turn but Shredder. He stays out of fear, but we can see, he clearly starts going a little crazy from the fly mutation, and his overall mental state deteriorates from there; it may have started from fear, but eventually he comes to have a sycophantic devotion to Shredder, and starts taking pleasure in his weird experiments and his perceived usefulness. And when he eventually gets turned back, it honestly comes across more as Stockholm syndrome and an inability to admit that the turtles did him a favor. Of course, it hardly matters, since he gets knocked out, and then that building burns down. Since he doesn’t show up in Season 5, I presume he died in that fire.

Anyway, I’ve talked long enough. The point I wanted to make was that I do believe that the show is thematically consistent, and tells an engaging character driven story, and though not free of flaws (I’m still annoyed by the Super Retromutagen), I think it ultimately succeeds, and that the various elements, when looked at from start to finish, have a logical through thread and arc.

[ToTheNines]

Wow, well said Zog!

You kind of put season 2 in a different light for me, which I also agree is the weakest, even though it had many many incredible standalone episodes. It still had too much fluff. I guess it would have benefitted from having less episodes. And The Invasion (particularly part 2) still stinks.

Season 3 was also lacking. I know people had issues with Northampton, and so did I… but if anything I think they should have been there even longer. And it should have been more somber and introspective. But hey, it’s on Nickelodeon and we gotta sell toys. So we’ll just have to live with the endless horror pastiches.

Season 3 was also pretty meandering once they came back, too. And the Triceratons kinda came out of nowhere (franchise staple status aside). Seemed weird to have them come in and just unceremoniously deliver The Kraang their final defeat, but I guess that was an effective way of establishing them as the big new threat.

Season 4 ruled. No real complaints with the Space arc, but I do agree about Fugitoid and sweeping the “past” turtles under the rug. I guess they just created a time loop?

And yeah, season 5 was just a victory lap with very little plot after the Kavaxas arc.

Final verdict: It was a great story with some flaws. I don’t know the behind the scenes politics, but losing Sternin/Ventimilia/most of the season 1 writers was a massive L. I’m not really a big fan of Brandon Auman. Seasons 2 and 3 would have probably been better off as 13 episodes, give or take. And their biggest failure was just dropping the ball on the whole April/Kirby “mystery”.

[ToTheNines]

Was also thinking about neatoman’s point about The Kraang being goofy until it’s time for a season finale or something. And The Foot is pretty guilty of this as well.

Shredder himself typically doesn’t fall into this trap, but basically all of his henchmen just turned into idiotic chumps, especially Bebop, Rocksteady and Xever.

Even in Owari, which was undoubtedly an awesome episode and the final fight was worth it all, there was a little too much levity in taking on the Foot goons and many of them got off too easy considering they all just participated in luring Splinter out for the purpose of Shredder killing him.

I generally enjoyed where the writers took everyone in season 5. But at the time I thought Xever, B&R and Tigerclaw should have all been killed. Kinda funny that only Bradford bought it.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Was also thinking about neatoman’s point about The Kraang being goofy until it’s time for a season finale or something. And The Foot is pretty guilty of this as well.

Shredder himself typically doesn’t fall into this trap, but basically all of his henchmen just turned into idiotic chumps, especially Bebop, Rocksteady and Xever.

Even in Owari, which was undoubtedly an awesome episode and the final fight was worth it all, there was a little too much levity in taking on the Foot goons and many of them got off too easy considering they all just participated in luring Splinter out for the purpose of Shredder killing him.

I generally enjoyed where the writers took everyone in season 5. But at the time I thought Xever, B&R and Tigerclaw should have all been killed. Kinda funny that only Bradford bought it.

It's especially odd, because watching Owari, Xever, Bebop, and Rocksteady clearly die in that episode. If there were no more episodes after that, the clear implication behind the setup and the framing of their scenes is that the turtles killed all three of them. But then they show up later. I didn't mind it too much, but I did notice.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

It's especially odd, because watching Owari, Xever, Bebop, and Rocksteady clearly die in that episode. If there were no more episodes after that, the clear implication behind the setup and the framing of their scenes is that the turtles killed all three of them. But then they show up later. I didn't mind it too much, but I did notice.

Yeah, I think they made it seem that way in case season 5 didn't happen for some reason.

I was STRONGLY against all of them being revealed to have survived when details of the Kavaxas arc started popping up, but they made it work. Kinda wish Tigerclaw would have died in "End Times".

[The Great Saiyaman]

First of all, my apologies for bringing up my fan comic here but having written that said comic for five years already I CAN see the problems that the show's writers must have had.

"We still have The Pulverizer, what shall we do about him?"
- "Just make the canister empty, no explanation on where he's gone to."

"You know, having Chris Bradford as a celebrity actually brings some REALITY to how Shredder legitimizes his empire!"
- "Nah, we sell more toys if we mutate him."

As others have said, the villains became more and more incompetent as the show went on and characters, such as the Rat King and Tatsu, had way more potential that was never used.

However, having done my fan comic, I fell into that trap myself.
- The story starts with me introducing a Mutant Cockroach girl, who, much like the Rat King, controls millions of roaches through a psychic link. There was so much I could have done with her, but I never found the spot to properly utilize that character.
- I came up with this identical triplet sisters Foot clan special ops squad. But as the story went on, I started using them less and less, which is a shame since they had a LOT of potential.

So I DO understand where the show's writing staff are coming from, there was so much introduced that they simply didn't know where to go with it.

However, I also took the opportunity to address other things that people have pointed out. Such as the Space Turtles, who left and were never heard of again.

[ticktack]

It was a god complex speaking behind the show. They can ruin the characters and add horrors for shock value however they like. Fans supported their show even with their poor decisions. It took an episode or moment of accidentally angering the fans and then rejecting/firing one of their staff to show more of their true colors.
From then on they went even meaner, more aggressive and less accepting, less tactful towards the fans and later the product. It was strange when the show started: patheticizing Baxter and making April inconsistent. This mean-spirited approach peaked in Irma with a sub-prime reveal in the show (They simply wouldn't listen to the fans who said they didn't want badly written romance with female characters involved. Instead, they went for the worse suggestion: killing off a female character, Ally, rather than letting her be written without a shipping fiasco, scenery, show, intrigue, or label.).
They continued this behavior until they directly destroyed the core and all the main characters in the last episodes. ((An anti-utopia where no one is alive and everyone is unhappy... And a utopian scenario for the writer, apparently, the way they liked finishing the story. And not letting it be rebooted, perhaps. Like a mindless revenge gift to everybody.))
Yup. There was your staff and their decision to disappoint their fans and delegitimize the product for the last given chance.

[ToTheNines]

I was thinking about this thread today, especially about The Kraang. And this show really does feel incomplete to me.

I’m sure knowing that Ciro has the Kraang Primordious story up his sleeve, and we even got the comic book prequel to it, doesn’t help. But dang.

Battle for New York was a decent 2-parter, but nothing stellar. But that’s essentially our big cap to the turtles vs. Kraang. We got Trans turtles and War for Dimension X (both great episodes), but they take place before the Triceratons just unceremoniously blow them all out of the sky.

So yeah, one more Kraang story and some god damned answers about April would really set me straight. Hopefully it happens.

[Wolfie65]

I did not grow up with any version of the Turtles, in fact, I didn't even know they existed until I was in my mid-20s, so I have no nostalgic dog in this fight.
The 2012 Nick cartoon is also my favorite version of the Turtles, it is the only one that emphasises the fact that they are Ninjas and Teenagers - which no other incarnations pay much attention to, it actually incorporates some real Ninjitsu techniques, Splinter actually speaks some real Japanese, there are tidbits of Japanese culture and mythology woven into the stories, and many of the jokes are actually good, which is not something that can be said for the Fred Wolf version, to name just one example.
At least the first 2 or 3 seasons are very well done and even though I am not normally a fan of CGI, Animé or Manga, those applications works very well for the Turtles in this show.
Like most TV shows, it drops off after that,but even then, it is still miles ahead in terms of quality compared to any other screen version and most TV series period.
Are there things they could have done better ? Yes.
Spend more time setting the scene, more basic battles with the Purple Dragons and Foot, don't even introduce April until season 2, leave Shredder as a mysterious, shadowy menace in the background until at least season 3, building suspense.
Studios often (always ?) assume that their audiences are quite dumb, especially kids' shows often shoot their entire wad in episode 1 of show so-and-so and then just switch to autopilot repeat, making all episodes basically just clones of episode 1.
Many kids have a much better attention span than most adults give them credit for, and even adults aren't quite as...limited...as movie- and TV execs seem to believe.
John Tolkien did, after all, write The Hobbit for his own sons, who were, if memory serves, 8 and 12 at the time.
The book, not the movies......

[IMJ]

It's easily the most quotable show in all of TMNT.

"Do you need a tissue? We're all out of tissues...."
Leatherhead randomly yankin' on Donnie's face.

Just a ton of silly nonsense that worked amidst a somewhat solid overarching story. I tend to look at that show as "30 minutes of entertainment" first and then a "cross season narrative" second.

Some seasons were better than others but overall it was possibly the best "all around" TMNT show we've had.