WandaVision

[Leo656]

Words on paper? Pshaw. People who can flip tanks have no reason to be honor-bound to such things.

If Thor hypothetically turned bad and decided to "rule the world", the fact that he signed a piece of paper promising that he wouldn't would be entirely meaningless. He's incredibly dangerous with or without that piece of paper.

Thus, Thor is ostensibly every bit as "dangerous" as Magneto or Prof. X. Which was my original point before it got muddied up. "Mutants" are no more or less inherently dangerous to "normals" than any other super-powered beings. It's All or Nothing, you're either a Meta or a Normie and ALL Metas are inherently "dangerous" to humanity. Which is why it's dumb to say, "These Metas pose MORE of a threat than Those Other Metas".

No, they don't. You can either read minds or you can't, you can fly or you can't, shoot fireballs or you can't. And if you CAN, then you're "potentially a threat" regardless of where those powers came from. I don't see what's so complicated about that.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

The entire point was that mutants represent a threat to humanity as a species. They are literally (and it's a known fact in-universe) the "next stage" of human evolution, and that scares the living $#*t out of normal people. Not because they are part of the powered community, but because their increasing numbers was seen as a clear threat to the survival of normal humans. It's like an australopithicus looking at a homo erectus and going "oh crap, they are going to REPLACE us!" And they'd be right. Because that was (and still is) the evolutionary progression in the MU, which is why people are so terrified of them. Because they AREN'T just random powered individuals, they are a NEW and "superior" SPECIES. So yeah, people treat them as something to be feared and hated for what they represent, not just because they have powers. The fact that they DO have some insanely powerful abilities just makes it even worse. Some mutants are KNOWN to have powers that can literally change the world around them, like Storm or Jean Grey or Magneto. And people know this, and it scares them $h*tless. It would be like dandelions in a grass lawn- they are stronger and more versatile; given time, they overrun the grass and edge it out. And that's what normal humans fear mutants will do (which was partly true, at least until Wanda's "no more mutants" meltdown.)

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I'm with Leo.

Mutants and the "mainstream" Marvel universe should have been kept separate.

Anti-mutant prejudice makes zero sense in a world with the Fantastic Four, the Hulk, Spider-Man, the Avengers, Ant-Man and the Wasp, etc, etc, etc...

Average Joe on the street ain't gonna know the difference between gamma rays and the X gene, or Super Soldier Serum and the X Gene, or radioactive spiderbite and the X gene, and need I go on?

But comic crossovers gonna crossovers.

[AquaParade]

Mutants have always existed in the MCU, but barely. Now they are becoming a known quantity and parents everywhere are worried their child will be born with razor sharp eyeballs.

Resentment grows, lies are spread, rumours of the "x-gene" being contagious. Propaganda flairs up, because fear sells and leads to more control for those at the top.

Hulk, Spider-Man, Wanda are still, and have always been general outcasts and somewhat polarizing. Avengers are heroes. The public knows they aren't mutants. Some people pick and choose which "supers" they defend, some just hate them all.
There can be a bit of nuance there. It's not perfect, but it works.

Or do the multiverse thing, that works too. Occasional crossovers will likely feel just as epic either way.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

I'm with Leo.

Mutants and the "mainstream" Marvel universe should have been kept separate.

Anti-mutant prejudice makes zero sense in a world with the Fantastic Four, the Hulk, Spider-Man, the Avengers, Ant-Man and the Wasp, etc, etc, etc...

Average Joe on the street ain't gonna know the difference between gamma rays and the X gene, or Super Soldier Serum and the X Gene, or radioactive spiderbite and the X gene, and need I go on?

But comic crossovers gonna crossovers.

Thank you sir.

Although I'm not exactly totally against the X-Men being part of the rest of the Marvel U, I just think the WAY they've been integrated and so on makes no sense since they're treated like there's some huge substantial difference between mutants and other Metas. "These guys who can fly = Good, Those guys who can fly = Bad." That's dumb. It breaks the consistency of the universe.

"Mutants might supersede humans"? So potentially might aliens, "gods", Gamma-irradiated whatsits or super-soldiers. That's not a good explanation as to what makes mutants any "different" from other Metas, or why they're viewed or treated differently in-universe. If I lived in a world with The Hulk, for example, I'd definitely be thinking "Yikes, man, what if that thing breeds?" Spider-Man and Cap and other Metas, same thing. The progeny of ANY metahuman "race" or "species" could potentially mean the end of regular humans, if it became widespread, not just Mutants.

It's all just "It makes sense if you squint." And squinting gives me a headache.

Alan Moore's never-published "Twilight of the Super-Heroes" saga made use of this exact premise; in a "dark future" all the various meta-humans and their children have become so widespread that they've basically "taken over" and made regular humans an endangered species, putting the entire world at risk. No "mutants" in that, and yet the same thing happened - metahumans superseding "normals" as the dominant species.

The entire "But mutants might replace humans and that's why humans hate and fear them!" argument falls apart completely once you realize that ANY metahumans could just as well do the same thing, not just mutants. Again, if Mutants are the only ones in danger of "replacing humanity" or "dominating humanity", then WHAT exactly was the point of Squadron Supreme? Eh? Ehhhhhhh?

"Metas Might Take Over From Humans" is a good story to execute in a super-hero universe. It's logical. Making that "threat" exclusive to just mutants, however, is NOT logical.

[Galactus]

There have been arguments in the comics that carry some weight. Firstly that prejudice doesn't really make sense. In the real world people can bigoted towards certain races or ethnicities but not others. It's not that like non-mutant Marvel heroes don't face any backlash; Spider-Man, Hulk even the FF and Avengers have all faced hatred from the general public to varying degrees.

There is also the idea that a mutant can be anyone you're next door neighbor or even your own kids. I think that's one of the things the Singer movies got right making it analogous to homophobia "have you tried not being a mutant". Not to mention that there is the belief that mutants will just naturally supplant humans - again that should resonate with people who have ever heard racists bark on about the 'great replacement theory'.

Heck some writers have portrayed that anti-mutant sentiment coming almost exclusively from the incident at Cape Citadel in X-Men #1. Again the sharp spike in islamaphobia that remains to this to this day occurred after 9/11 shows that it's not such an unrealistic consequence of Magneto's actions.

Where it's always fallen down for me is that in X-Men stories super powered people regardless of whether they well known or whether they are wearing an X-uniform or not are generally immediately identified as mutants. That doesn't happen in non-X books...well there are exceptions like a brief subplot in a 90s Spider-Man title which had the Friends of Humanity target Spider-Man because they believe he's a mutant but by and large mutant issues are generally kept in the X books for creative reasons even if it doesn't complete sense in what is supposed to be shared universe.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

I'm with Leo.

Mutants and the "mainstream" Marvel universe should have been kept separate.

Anti-mutant prejudice makes zero sense in a world with the Fantastic Four, the Hulk, Spider-Man, the Avengers, Ant-Man and the Wasp, etc, etc, etc...

Average Joe on the street ain't gonna know the difference between gamma rays and the X gene, or Super Soldier Serum and the X Gene, or radioactive spiderbite and the X gene, and need I go on?

But comic crossovers gonna crossovers.

Actually, the difference is common knowledge in the MU, for the most part. As mentioned by Aqua, even guys like Spidey and the Hulk have been outcasts (though for different reasons). In Hulk's case, everyone is terrified of him getting ticked off and going berserk. Understandable. But JJ Jamison has at various points led an absolute smear campaign against Spidey, even accusing him of BEING a mutant! And even though there have been mutants- mostly X-Men- among the Avengers, those members have never been trusted like the "real heroes" of the group. Beast, Wolverine, and Wanda herself have all been Avengers, even from the early days, but they still get the general bias against mutants simply because it's the "accepted" thing to be prejudiced against them. There are literal anti-mutant hate groups like the Friends of Humanity, whose sole purpose is registration, imprisonment, and even slavery or extermination of mutantkind. That was why they even created their own country in Genosha. Mutants were originally created in the MU as a metaphor for racial oppression and bigotry in the real world, so it makes sense that they see plenty of it.

Another thing is that, while some mutants can easily pass as normal when not using their powers, others are plainly obvious as to what they are. Guys like Beast, Beak, or Nightcrawler can't even go out in public without causing a panic. But it's the ones who DO pass who cause the most fear, because, like others have said, they could literally be walking next to you on the street. And unless they are in suit or using powers, you'd never know. And that's what scares people the most- not knowing who they all are, or where they are, or what they can do. The Avengers, the FF, those are known celebs of a sort, but mutants? Might as well be a secret, well armed terrorist group.

[ZariusTwo]

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Actually, the difference is common knowledge in the MU, for the most part. As mentioned by Aqua, even guys like Spidey and the Hulk have been outcasts (though for different reasons). In Hulk's case, everyone is terrified of him getting ticked off and going berserk. Understandable. But JJ Jamison has at various points led an absolute smear campaign against Spidey, even accusing him of BEING a mutant! And even though there have been mutants- mostly X-Men- among the Avengers, those members have never been trusted like the "real heroes" of the group. Beast, Wolverine, and Wanda herself have all been Avengers, even from the early days, but they still get the general bias against mutants simply because it's the "accepted" thing to be prejudiced against them. There are literal anti-mutant hate groups like the Friends of Humanity, whose sole purpose is registration, imprisonment, and even slavery or extermination of mutantkind. That was why they even created their own country in Genosha. Mutants were originally created in the MU as a metaphor for racial oppression and bigotry in the real world, so it makes sense that they see plenty of it.

Another thing is that, while some mutants can easily pass as normal when not using their powers, others are plainly obvious as to what they are. Guys like Beast, Beak, or Nightcrawler can't even go out in public without causing a panic. But it's the ones who DO pass who cause the most fear, because, like others have said, they could literally be walking next to you on the street. And unless they are in suit or using powers, you'd never know. And that's what scares people the most- not knowing who they all are, or where they are, or what they can do. The Avengers, the FF, those are known celebs of a sort, but mutants? Might as well be a secret, well armed terrorist group.

That's a ton of in-universe hoops to jump through to justify why some people who can shoot lasers are okay and others are "bad". Very silly.

It's a plot hole. Deal with it.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

That's a ton of in-universe hoops to jump through to justify why some people who can shoot lasers are okay and others are "bad". Very silly.

It's a plot hole. Deal with it.

Nah, it makes perfect sense that the guy made 100% out of orange rock is okay but the guy with big' ol bird wings is terrifying.

Or why the girl who can turn invisible is fantastic but the guy who looks like the Blue Man Group crossed with a furry convention is bad news.

Or why the black guy with bulletproof skin is a hero but the stripper with psychic powers and diamond skin is terrifying.

After all, if there's one thing you can count on the General Public for, it's understanding nuance and detail when discriminating against certain classes of people!

[Jester]

Spoiler:

I've often thought this when thinking of White Supremacists. Who counts as "White"? I know at one point Irish and Italians were out, was that because of Catholicism? And do the Spanish and Greeks count? The only group of "White People" that always seem to be A-Ok are Germans....I guess...maybe...

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Jester

Spoiler:

I've often thought this when thinking of White Supremacists. Who counts as "White"? I know at one point Irish and Italians were out, was that because of Catholicism? And do the Spanish and Greeks count? The only group of "White People" that always seem to be A-Ok are Germans....I guess...maybe...

Spoiler:

I have no idea honestly. If we're gonna talk about fictional portrayals of those people, American History X has a few scenes that seem a bit contradictory. Danny is praising Adolf Hitler in one scene but also explicitly proclaims his disdain for anyone who isn't a protestant. Which makes me wonder if the character is meant to be ignorant of the fact that Hitler was a catholic or if the script writer was.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Jester

Spoiler:

I've often thought this when thinking of White Supremacists. Who counts as "White"? I know at one point Irish and Italians were out, was that because of Catholicism? And do the Spanish and Greeks count? The only group of "White People" that always seem to be A-Ok are Germans....I guess...maybe...

Spoiler:

Irish Catholic (lapsed). I'm trash and everybody hates me!

Except black people. Apparently, to some black people, Irish are almost like kin. "White N-words", they call us. I don't know how to feel about that, but I guess it's nice.

But yeah, at its root all of these types of prejudice are incredibly silly and fall apart with two seconds' worth of thought.

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Nah, it makes perfect sense that the guy made 100% out of orange rock is okay but the guy with big' ol bird wings is terrifying.

Or why the girl who can turn invisible is fantastic but the guy who looks like the Blue Man Group crossed with a furry convention is bad news.

Or why the black guy with bulletproof skin is a hero but the stripper with psychic powers and diamond skin is terrifying.

After all, if there's one thing you can count on the General Public for, it's understanding nuance and detail when discriminating against certain classes of people!

You get an A. Have some red rope licorice.

[AquaParade]

I don't know, plenty of racist towards black people people probably cheer on the NBA or vis versa. It's not hard for me to imagine people praising the Avengers while not giving the benefit of the doubt to mutants for various reasons, such as propaganda or plain ignorance.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Again, though, it's the fact that mutants are a literal species of their own. As opposed to one-off guys like Hulk, Ant-Man(who is just a guy with some really high-tech gear), or Cap(military experimental serum for better performance, but otherwise normal! Basically just perfomance enhancing drugs....) who are still human, in spite of their abilities, and thus PROBABLY not likely to pass their powers on, because in most cases the abilities were just enhancements or tech-related. Some do, perhaps, but they are still a tiny minority, whereas mutants (before M-Day) numbered in the MILLIONS at one point. There was even an entire event arc about it. Post M-Day, they were reduced to only 200 left, and no more being born. And that was seen as an extinction crisis by mutants, but was being CELEBRATED by anti-mutant groups as a sign of victory over the enemy! It's a HUGE distinction, vs guys that got their powers by accident, experiment, or from a god or other entity. Heck, in-universe, it is even accepted that Thor and some other heroes ARE gods (there was even a joke about it in one Avengers issue, that damage done during a fight between Thor and a villain was classified as an "act of god" for insurance purposes) so it's not as if the people themselves aren't aware of differences. They KNOW that literal gods walk among them, and that the military and government keep tabs on ALL known powered people. It's the ones that just pop up spontaneously via mutant genes that scare them, because not only are they not a known quantity, but many have powers they can't even control! (Rogue, or Sauron, or Leech, anyone?) Others are flat out malevolent and dangerous on purpose, simply because they see themselves as superior. And then there are some that are just too powerful to allow loose, like Jean. (And mutants tend to attract odd attention from all sorts of sources, like aliens- the Shi'ar, Brood, and Phalanx- from cosmic entities- the Phoenix force and Beyonder- and supernatural beings like the Shadowman, Mephisto, and others.) Add in that they even have their own special school and their own nation, and it looks pretty scary to an average person on the street, like a conquest in the making. That was the whole point of Registration and the Sentinels. Paranoid government and militant organizations trying to forestall what they see as a future where mutants take over and oppress normals. House of M was all about a future just like that, with the House of Magneto being rulers of the world, and mutants being the elite class while normals were treated little better than slaves. And it was caused by ONE mutant- Wanda! Pretty alarming to think ONE mutant could completely remake reality on Earth like that, so is it any wonder people fear them? Or Jean, who as Phoenix has obliterated entire planets in an instant.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Again, though, it's the fact that mutants are a literal species of their own. As opposed to one-off guys like Hulk, Ant-Man(who is just a guy with some really high-tech gear), or Cap(military experimental serum for better performance, but otherwise normal! Basically just perfomance enhancing drugs....) who are still human, in spite of their abilities, and thus PROBABLY not likely to pass their powers on, because in most cases the abilities were just enhancements or tech-related. Some do, perhaps, but they are still a tiny minority, whereas mutants (before M-Day) numbered in the MILLIONS at one point. There was even an entire event arc about it. Post M-Day, they were reduced to only 200 left, and no more being born. And that was seen as an extinction crisis by mutants, but was being CELEBRATED by anti-mutant groups as a sign of victory over the enemy! It's a HUGE distinction, vs guys that got their powers by accident, experiment, or from a god or other entity. Heck, in-universe, it is even accepted that Thor and some other heroes ARE gods (there was even a joke about it in one Avengers issue, that damage done during a fight between Thor and a villain was classified as an "act of god" for insurance purposes) so it's not as if the people themselves aren't aware of differences. They KNOW that literal gods walk among them, and that the military and government keep tabs on ALL known powered people. It's the ones that just pop up spontaneously via mutant genes that scare them, because not only are they not a known quantity, but many have powers they can't even control! (Rogue, or Sauron, or Leech, anyone?) Others are flat out malevolent and dangerous on purpose, simply because they see themselves as superior. And then there are some that are just too powerful to allow loose, like Jean. (And mutants tend to attract odd attention from all sorts of sources, like aliens- the Shi'ar, Brood, and Phalanx- from cosmic entities- the Phoenix force and Beyonder- and supernatural beings like the Shadowman, Mephisto, and others.) Add in that they even have their own special school and their own nation, and it looks pretty scary to an average person on the street, like a conquest in the making. That was the whole point of Registration and the Sentinels. Paranoid government and militant organizations trying to forestall what they see as a future where mutants take over and oppress normals. House of M was all about a future just like that, with the House of Magneto being rulers of the world, and mutants being the elite class while normals were treated little better than slaves. And it was caused by ONE mutant- Wanda! Pretty alarming to think ONE mutant could completely remake reality on Earth like that, so is it any wonder people fear them? Or Jean, who as Phoenix has obliterated entire planets in an instant.

I think the point is, in the world that is full of mutants, who's to say Hulk isn't a mutant? Or that Spider-Man isn't a mutant? Or Rhino isn't a mutant? Hell, Juggernaut is one of the X-Men villains and he's confused for a mutant in his own series.

Normal people aren't gonna know that Hulk was a guy blasted by gamma radiation. To be honest, I think most of the world thinks Hulk is Hulk 100% of the time, only Ross and the military under him know he's some guy that they have to be ready for when he gets mad. If Banner turned into the Hulk in front of enough witnesses that alone should add fuel to the paranoia that 'anyone can be a mutant, right under your nose'.

[ZariusTwo]

Can we please focus on the show?

Episode 4:

Spoiler:

If this were a movie, this would be the opening act. I get the first three episodes were scene-setters to establish the situation at Westview, but you really could have just started with this one. It probably would have warded off all the criticisms I've seen about the slow-burn. I think we'll be back to the sit-com format next week, but the answers will come thick and fast in less time.

I appreciate we got to see more of the grim reality of coming back from the blip also.

And, raise hands, who wanted the NWO to show up at the end? I even said "let's bring out the man" with the world's worst Eric Bischoff impersonation when that music hit

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Can we please focus on the show?

What're you, new?

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Leo656

What're you, new?

I got sucked into Westview

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

I think the point is, in the world that is full of mutants, who's to say Hulk isn't a mutant? Or that Spider-Man isn't a mutant? Or Rhino isn't a mutant? Hell, Juggernaut is one of the X-Men villains and he's confused for a mutant in his own series.

Normal people aren't gonna know that Hulk was a guy blasted by gamma radiation. To be honest, I think most of the world thinks Hulk is Hulk 100% of the time, only Ross and the military under him know he's some guy that they have to be ready for when he gets mad. If Banner turned into the Hulk in front of enough witnesses that alone should add fuel to the paranoia that 'anyone can be a mutant, right under your nose'.

The thing is, m9st people DO know in the MU. The Avengers and some others like the FF get treated like celebs, the media follows them and their histories are well-known even by the general public, except in the few cases like Spidey's secret identity, and even that was revealed (and then mind-wiped) not too long ago. They get interviewed by reporters, have movies made of them in-universe, and books written about them. Most of the heroes are as well known in their personal lives as famous actors. There have been issues where this was mentioned or even focused on, so no, they really aren't ignorant of who or what guys like Banner, who HAS Hulked out in public, or Rhino, whose power comes from his suit, are. They even know which past Avengers have been mutants, mainly for that very reason of media and government digging. When Wanda and Pietro first joined, they were almost denied admission, because their status as both mutants AND criminals was well known! It was Cap who actually vouched for them, saying they deserved a chance to be redeemed. So it's been pretty well understood from the beginning that the difference is documented and tracked. It's literally JUST racial bigotry against mutants, always HAS been.

And as a last point of reference, there was even a DRUG that was made using mutant growth hormones, aka MGH, that became a threat akin to mixing steroids, meth, and ecstasy! It gave normal humans temporary powers based on the mutant the MGH came from, but the cost was that some of them came from mutants whose powers were involuntary or hard to control, or were part of their physical bodies, which led to a bunch of deaths and serious injuries.