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Old 07-13-2021, 08:17 PM   #41
Zog The Magnificent
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What official information? Do you really want me to go full aspie and go point by point? I will. Granted I don't like the idea of the 2012 turtles having that future and the implications of it but it's a good story arc and canon, i can't change it.
Every single thing I cited was from official sources or based on official sources.

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Batman Beyond was always canon, it was always fans who said it might not because they didn't like bruce being a jaded old man. Later crossovers proved them wrong.
You are mistaken. Back when Batman Beyond was still on the air, the showrunners made many comments in both interviews and public comments on how Batman Beyond wasn't necessarily the definitive future. They always called it a "possible future," and it wasn't until the crossover episodes of Static Shock and Justice League that it was fully cemented as the definitive future.

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first of all quoting wikipedia with obvious fan slant, not even worthy of being included in the current page of wikipedia grasping at straws.
While it is true that Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, the information is constantly checked over and verified, and is generally correct and accurate. I wouldn't use it in an academic paper, but for something like this it is perfectly servicable, and I cited every source it used in its citations.

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So? Something being the "finale" doesn't mean it's the actual last episode.
This tweet was in specific response to people asking about whether or not Mutant Apocalypse was really the ending. This, combined with Ciero's comments on how he intended Mutant Apocalypse to be the ending, as well as Nickelodeon's comments and the fact that they rearranged the season to put it in the middle, clearly indicate that B&R was being treated as the ending and Mutant Apocalypse was rendered noncanon.

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Where does it say it's non canon? It's a tale from the future.
You are correct that the word "noncanon" does not actually appear. However, combined with the other statements, Mutant Apocalypse clearly fits into both "beyond" and "future."

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Not that it matters what some wagie working the social media account says, the account might be official but not necessarily what he types there. Social media managers get stuff wrong all the time.
Of course it matters. You can't just disregard it out of hand. This information came from an official source, and confirms that the special is considered noncanon by Nickelodeon.

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Again, this means nothing
The alternate possiblities line and the fact that it corroborates the above comment regarding an AU adds further evidence that the special is considered noncanon.

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First of all, that would be word of god and not necessarily screen canon. Second of all how would you reply to a fan who is basically saying they're going to commit sudoku because they're cartoon show for kids didn't end how they wanted it to end? AND even then he uses the word "could" which is a modal verb that expresses possibility at best and a vague statement of "for the audience to decide" AKA head canon. He sure didn't want to be in a news hit article of how a fan killed themselves because their headcanon is wrong.
Word of god is just as valid as on screen canon. If a creator clarifys something after the fact, as the creator of the work, and therefore the authority on it, anything they say has just as much bearing on the story as what is actually depicted. Auman's comments also both add credence to this idea, as well as the concept of Death of the Author, which at the very least, if you decide to disregard word of god, allows you to make your own conclusions. Personally, I believe a creator can give a definitive answer on what a work is or means, but not on what a person may get out of it.

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How is this damaging? Anyone can write those synopsis and they often include wrong information all the time, most fandoms don't consider that type of information as canon. And even then it doesn't state it's not canon.
"Anyone" in this case is Nickelodeon, the current owners of the property, who are therefore at liberty to decide what is and isn't canon. There is no point in trying to speculate whether or not the information is "correct" or not. It came from an official source regarding a fictional property, and nothing about it contradicts anything in the show. Ergo, it is correct. And once again, while the specific word "noncanon" does not appear, it explicitly refers to the mutant apocalypse arc as being in "another dimension"; as in, a dimension other than the one where all of the show takes place. In other words, it is noncanon as far as the rest of the show is concerned.


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Disney decides what canon is, all the EU is gone and anything Lucas wants is also non canon. Now I hate Disney star wars and just enjoy things whether canon or non-canon. but that doesn't mean the sequel trilogy didn't happen. it did and it sucks.
That wasn't the main point of that point. I know that Disney is currently in charge of determining canon. I was merely trying to explain why continuity is a tricky business with franchises. If Star Wars is ever sold to someone else, or heck, if the administration changes, they could easily render the movies noncanon, and in a way that they were never canon to begin with, just becoming weird elseworld tales. I think a better example would be a mainstream publisher like DC comics. In just one ongoing, a writer can write a story, only for the next writer to render it noncanon, only for the next writer to change it right back, only for one of their annual events to render the whole thing noncanon except for certain details which are still canon. When a work is in the hands of multiple people, canon is more of a guiding line than a hard and fast rule.
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Old 07-18-2021, 09:04 PM   #42
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That's some impressive autism.
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regardless, still canon
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Old 07-18-2021, 09:13 PM   #43
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That's some impressive autism.
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Old 07-18-2021, 09:34 PM   #44
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I wanted to quote someone that made me laugh in this thread, but then I kept scrolling and laughin' and now I don't know who to quote!
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Old 07-19-2021, 02:35 AM   #45
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That's some impressive autism.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
regardless, still canon
No need to resort to insults. Though I think that based on your response, you really don't have anything substantive to say, since it appears you can't really refute my evidence beyond declaring it doesn't count. Even in your longest post many of your refutations boiled down to this. Regardless, I've said all I need to say. By all available evidence and information, Mutant Apocalypse is officially noncanon. If you want to cling to the idea that it is canon, be my guest. At the end of the day it's a fictional story and people are going to count what they want to anyways. It's clear that you'll never change your opinion no matter what I present, and that this dialogue, one sided as it was, has run its course. So with that, I'm done talking about it. Off to other conversations!
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Old 07-19-2021, 02:43 AM   #46
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So, in all honesty, how well do you think the Space Arc worked? For me, it was one of my favorites in the show, though not as good as the second half of season 4. I enjoyed seeing the different renditions of the various space characters, as well as Lord Dregg and Armaggon. I'll admit, it took a bit for me to get behind this verison of Dregg, but by the end he really grew on me, and I think he worked pretty well for his role. I also especially appreciated the more serialized format and the overall more serious tone, barring the occasionall filler episode ("The Weird World of Wyrm" comes to mind). I also thought that the character writing, particularly around Fugitoid's character arc, was excellent. My one gripe with that was them showing us he was still alive at the end, undercutting the sacrifice, but then never doing anything with it. And of course, it was nice to see the Triceratons in the villain role again. I think the only realy problem I have with the arc as a whole is that at the end, they're left with two sets of turtles, which they immediately brush away and then never talk about again. A bit rushed, in my opinion.
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Old 07-19-2021, 02:48 AM   #47
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No need to resort to insults. Though I think that based on your response, you really don't have anything substantive to say, since it appears you can't really refute my evidence beyond declaring it doesn't count. Even in your longest post many of your refutations boiled down to this. Regardless, I've said all I need to say. By all available evidence and information, Mutant Apocalypse is officially noncanon. If you want to cling to the idea that it is canon, be my guest. At the end of the day it's a fictional story and people are going to count what they want to anyways. It's clear that you'll never change your opinion no matter what I present, and that this dialogue, one sided as it was, has run its course. So with that, I'm done talking about it. Off to other conversations!
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Old 07-19-2021, 02:59 AM   #48
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Saxon = Joke Account

I keep telling people this but they never seem to listen.
Okay, I actually didn't know that. But good to know for the future!
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Old 07-19-2021, 09:32 AM   #49
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OK, Season 3.

IMHO, this is where the show really goes off the rails. and starts to loose whatever cohesivness it had.

- an entire world believes that NYC is fine? yet aliens walk the streets and the city is basically dark and deserted? OK.

- the rest of the country seems to not really care and goes about business as normal.

- we went into the first half of the season. Foot to big, buried secrets, within the woods, croaking, terrible. race with the demon, eyes of the chimera, vision quest, in dreams. not as bad as I remember.

The second half of the season feels like a totally different series. seems like two show runners split the season in 2.

The Good - Pig and the Rhino, Battle for New York, Serpent Hunt, Return to New york, Clash of the Mutanimals, Turtles in Time, Tale of the Yokai, Creeping Doom, Fourfold Trap, Annihalation Earth.

The bad -
Casey Jones Vs the Underworld, the Noxious Avenger,

- the OK.....
Meet Mondo Gecko, Attack of the Mega Shredder, Dinsosaur seen in sewers...

for the last three, the mondo episode wasn't a bad retread of the 87 series. But Mondo himself is so pointless and useless that it makes the episode not needed. and deletes anything cool about the race that happens later.

I had pretty much forgotten then entire plot of the Mega Shredder episode. The actual plot itself wasn't bad. including the creation of the mega mutant. It's the mega mutant itself that gets stupid. from the 'the brain is the tounge' part to mikey surviving being eaten. and the rather pointless turtle mech creation. the entire battle just feels like filler.

dino in the sewers WOULD have been OK, but you don't feel for zog in this one. he regains his memories and his feelings and basically turns evil, negating the whole raph bonding thing. therefore his sacrifice feels flat and you don't care.

they also basically seem to forget about Krang Prime after this. She seems to vanish totally.
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Old 07-19-2021, 01:56 PM   #50
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dino in the sewers WOULD have been OK, but you don't feel for zog in this one. he regains his memories and his feelings and basically turns evil, negating the whole raph bonding thing. therefore his sacrifice feels flat and you don't care.

they also basically seem to forget about Krang Prime after this. She seems to vanish totally.
Well, I mean, Kraang Prime dies, so it's no surprise that they stop using the character. The Kraang are pretty much beaten after Battle for New York, and they make one attempt at coming back before dying to the Triceratons. I don't think it's "forgotten" so much as "resolved."

I'm surprised you didn't like Dinosaur Seen in Sewers. I think that 2012's take was actually more realistic because of the fact that they turtles suffer a realistic consequence for what they did. It's something that's never really touched on in any other version, but it's kind of a messed up thing what they do to Zog. Here's a guy whose delusional and doesn't know what's going on, and the turtles take advantage of him and use him for their own purpose, resulting in his death. Zog in this version regains his sanity and rightly calls them out on it, which was also an effective twist since everyone, being familiar with the old stories, wasn't expecting it. Also, I don't really think his sacrifice fell flat because it wasn't really a sacrifice this time. He let himself die so the rest of the Triceratons could show up, and the emotional payoff is supposed to be less in his death and more in the turtles feeling guilty.

EDIT: I TOTALLY forgot about the super retromutagen. That part was also stupid. That was just "we couldn't think of a way to resolve this realistically, here's a solution we pulled out of our butt."

Last edited by Zog The Magnificent; 07-19-2021 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 07-21-2021, 10:32 AM   #51
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A pretty fair analysis. Looking back, I think the show started off pretty strong with seasons 1 and 2 but went downhill on season 3 and the first half of the season 4, before getting better once again.
Exactly how I feel. I loved the first season, the next I really didn't care for..... I find myself going back and watching the first season quite often.
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Old Today, 07:05 AM   #52
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So, Season 4.

I always enjoyed season 4. It felt MUCH more cohesive. it felt like a different team running it. even with the longer breaks, it didn't feel like anything was forgotten or over looked. the plot stayed consistent.

There really isn't a bad episode in the bunch of the space arc. From the Weird World of Worym (Their version of Q or Mr.Mxy), to the odd journey to the center of mikey's mind. Arena of Carnage is kind of boring, since we've seen it done before, but the rest are perfectly fine.

The only odd thing : How does Krang Sub Prime keep coming back to life? they kill him each time and somehow he always comes back. That's why I say they forgot about Krang Prime after season 3. He wasn't dead, the drome just sunk back to the ocean.

Even Dregg was a bit more likeable this time around. at first I thought it was a bit stupid that they made him more biological than technological....but it does separate him from the krang more. the only thing I didn't like with him was showing that he had a ....robot head? never gets mentioned again and didn't make much sense. and then they kill him off..supposedly. ( think he returns again somehow in season 5?)

on the second half now.
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