DC Relaunching AGAIN

[ZariusTwo]

I'd been reading more books now than I did back in 2008 because of the entry point provided by Rebirth, though I've also since dropped several since then as they're just ramping up darkness and dysfunction in almost all of them again...there's no guarantee a return to 2008 stuff would be the answer if the same people are in the same positions. Didio especially. Guy's a one trick pony and can't seem to grasp the audience DC has these days is way past the age for edge

[Leo656]

We probably define "edge" differently. Sometimes they go a bit far, like "Cry For Justice", but I'll always take a more serious and grounded story over one that's cheesy or silly. I haven't agreed with the "super-heroes are sunshiney kids' stuff" sentiment since I was about 3.

A lot of people who read DC cite "Identity Crisis" as the dividing line as far as taste; either it's fine or "shouldn't exist because that's not how super-hero stories should be," depending on who you ask. I myself had zero problems with the tone of it, there's just too many bits of logical inconsistency, and the ending was a cheat. But the tone and the violence, all that's fine as far as I'm concerned.

Even "Cry For Justice", my problem wasn't that it was dark and violent, it's that it just wasn't very good.

I'unno, I just never understood the "Too Dark" thing when it comes to super-hero comics. Given the subject matter, shouldn't the stories be taken as seriously as possible? Is it because of the capes and costumes? That hardly seems to make sense. What's lighthearted about fighting evil or saving the world? To me, "Watchmen" seems to be a much more logical fit for the material than, say, Super-Friends.

"Edge" to me would be, like, Spawn, or better yet the kinda stuff Avatar used to put out when they were doing "Hellena", and they had the rights to all the horror icons like Freddy and Jason. THOSE books were "edgy". "Edgy" like "Hellena f*cking a guy to death while he's getting dragged at high speeds behind a motorcycle, until he's nothing but a pulped corpse." THAT, I would consider "edgy".

So we probably draw the line in different places, I'm assuming.

[ZariusTwo]

Yeah, for sure, there's times where the edge fits and can be a natural fit, but some titles that are usually associated with fun times and an upswing in momentum but they have to crowbar that angst into them and it doesn't fit much at all.

If it happens somewhere, every so often, it's good, if it happens everywhere, all the time, well...

[Leo656]

I'unno. All super-hero stories are based in eternal, ceaseless conflict by definition. "Fun" isn't what I expect from the genre. I mean, they are fun, but I've never picked up a super-hero comic expecting to laugh much, or feel too "uplifted". I pretty much get what I expect, what with all the Tragic Origins and All Problems Need To Be Solved With Violence that are inherent in the very fabric and all.

Except, of course, for the obvious exception of Fight-Man, aka "Bill & Ted's Favorite Super-Hero". THAT book, was a riot. Sadly, it was only a one-shot... but "One Shot Is All He Needs!"

Although literally the whole world hated Fight-Man and wanted him dead, so while it was definitely funny I can't say it was at all uplifting. Shucks!

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I'unno. All super-hero stories are based in eternal, ceaseless conflict by definition. "Fun" isn't what I expect from the genre.

Ah, post-"Seduction" there was a more innocent times...probably bored the pants off an over 20, but they convinced the boomers like me heroes were heroes.

There's a reason Brave and the Bold is the only other well loved Batman cartoon besides anything from the DCAU.

[Leo656]

I actually think B&B was one of the better Batman cartoons and did what it was trying to do very well. It was also a lot more comics-faithful than most, even though the humorous stuff generally isn't my taste. It's not my go-to, but I respect it.

That said, from my angle, "Heroism" is born of struggle, it's what we endure that makes us strong, and the higher the stakes, the better the story. Even AS a kid, I never liked the stuff aimed at kids. My first comic books were Action Comics Annual #1 ("Cry, Vampire!"), Adventures of Superman Annual #1 (The Trudeau Incident), and the three-part "Supergirl Saga" which ended with Superman killing Zod. Very impactful stuff for a 4-year old.

Super-Friends was in its latter (and superior) seasons at the time, and while I still watched and enjoyed it, even at that age I much preferred the comic books and their more serious take. I never looked back. As a collector I still picked up back issues and reprints of the Silver Age stuff, but to me it was all too silly. Even then, I had a very hard time getting into anything that was explicitly aimed at children; He-Man was an exception, but I was mostly drawn in by the more serious mini-comics and storybooks rather than the cartoons.

I'm sure it's not true for every individual, but in general I've noticed that people who primarily get into super-heroes through cartoon shows (or those Reeve movies) tend to prefer the lighter, kid-friendly model, while those who prefer the comics favor the more serious take. Probably not true of everyone, but it's something I've noticed among people I know.

The DCU has always been a PG-13/R-Rated universe to me, so when people accuse them of "going dark", it puzzles me because I've never known it to be any other way and it's what I prefer.

[MikeandRaph87]

https://www.avclub.com/the-justice-l...1829758920/amp

I always saw many similarities to Wonder Woman and Aquaman and thought they could have a relationship similar to Batman and Superman. I am glad to see them play off each other and also partnering their archenemies in their respective thin rogues galleries.

Looking ahead Hawkgirl meets Hawkgirl in #15. Can anyone clear up how Sheira Hall and Kendra Saunders work? Is confusing and reboots dont help sort out the matter! On top of that the Earth-1 JLA member who inspired the cartoon version was killed off in Rann-Thagar War.

[Leo656]

Let's not even attempt to decipher the mess that is the Hawks.

Any and every attempt to make it make sense only ruins things further.

I think at this point, no attempt should be made at explaining them or giving them any backstory at all. "They have wings; Big Dude has a mace." That's all.

THE most botched characters in history, no contest.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Let's not even attempt to decipher the mess that is the Hawks.

Any and every attempt to make it make sense only ruins things further.

I think at this point, no attempt should be made at explaining them or giving them any backstory at all. "They have wings; Big Dude has a mace." That's all.

THE most botched characters in history, no contest.

All they have to do is stick with Earth-1 origins of the duo from the Silver and Bronze Ages to make it less confusing. Trying to undo clutter only creates clutter just ask Supergirl.

Speaking of clutter and confusion...
https://www.cbr.com/justice-league-t...ve-roster/amp/

At this rate there could be more than the JLI era that opened the League to any hero.

[Leo656]

Can't leave out the JSA Hawks, though. At least you shouldn't.

Feh. I hate their stupid history. Visually interesting characters, the only good stories with them being non-canon. Frustrating.

[ZariusTwo]

I've dropped Justice League for the time being while "Drowned Earth" is going on, as they're tying into Aquaman and I don't pick that up.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

I've dropped Justice League for the time being while "Drowned Earth" is going on, as they're tying into Aquaman and I don't pick that up.

When it comes to stories like that I simply read the one title. You could always go to a certain website to read the Aquaman title without picking it up, but I will be fine reading Drowned Earth with just Justice League. With the ultraviolet Corps, Still Force, somehow an army of neoneanderthals exist, a piece of the source wall forms into a door knob,and a character from a story I did not read comes out of nowhere(Dark Knight: Metal) the story is head spinning confusing already so skipping Aquaman will not hurt.

[ZariusTwo]

Bleeding Cool have a preview of AC#1004 up, and Lois' book is finally given a name...."My Life With Superman", it definitely appears Lois is going to out herself as Superman's lover, possibly indicating the Kents will reveal they are polyamorous

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/10...on-comics-100/

[ZariusTwo]

Action Comics#1004

So the big status quo change is...Lois doesn't think Clark or Jon need her around all the time and wants space to write a book. That's it. She and Clark will still have a happy marriage, they'll just live separate for a while and work out the kinks as they go.

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Bleeding Cool have a preview of AC#1004 up, and Lois' book is finally given a name...."My Life With Superman", it definitely appears Lois is going to out herself as Superman's lover, possibly indicating the Kents will reveal they are polyamorous

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/10...on-comics-100/

Wait. . . as in they're actually open about banging other people? Or are they going to consider Clark and Supes as two different people?

If that's the case, I can't imagine that much of a scandal. I'm sure anyone who sees Clark has to peg him as a total dweeb and figure he's getting cucked by Superman.

[ZariusTwo]

Interview with Grant Morrison on his new DC projects...including some discussion on Sideways. He says this annual is intended as a farewell to N52 Superman

https://www.denofgeek.com/us/books/d...ollar-superman

[MikeandRaph87]

So he was killed in 2016,but his spirit and Nu52 Lois Lane merged with the post-crisis Earth Superman, right? I never really understood the "how" of any of this.

Also Jon is the biological son of Clark and Lois? Yet he is already like 10 year old. What about Chris who was General Zod and Ursa's son adopted by Clark and Lois? There was another son a little young then him in an arc of Hal Jordan and The Green Lantern Corps. Was he replaced in continuity? I am getting a migraine just trying to sort this out.

[Leo656]

Again, New 52, and everything since and in-between, just shouldn't have happened.

The ONLY way to make ANY sense is to rewind to the end of Blackest Night, and start by having Brightest Day not suck and actually get an ending.

I know they won't do it, but... they really should.

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Again, New 52, and everything since and in-between, just shouldn't have happened.

The ONLY way to make ANY sense is to rewind to the end of Blackest Night, and start by having Brightest Day not suck and actually get an ending.

I know they won't do it, but... they really should.

I am actually 100% behind this! The whole lurposes of certain heroes being resurrected never came go form and the Deathstorm arc with Ronnie and Jason never finished. Largely it is because SC executives decided a third of the way through New 52 reboot wojld happen and dropped the ball on Brightest Day.

When was Aquaman killed? He was Dweller of The Depths, but didnt die so him being revived was odd. Yet Hawkman was killed off in both Blackest Night and Final Crisis just before. Go figure.

[ZariusTwo]

I read the Sideways annual and it's not that much of a "farewell" to N52 Superman, it leaves the door open to him returning if someone chooses to use him. He'll just be crusading around the multiverse righting wrongs.

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

Also Jon is the biological son of Clark and Lois? Yet he is already like 10 year old.

Ok, I'm going to try to detail this as best I can...

Jon was born in the 2015 Convergence event, then he and the family spent ten years or so trapped on N52 Earth in secret, then came the mess where Mxy broke out of one of Manhattan and Jor-El's prisons and got angry at the Kents for abandoning him. He captured Jon and played a sick reality-bending game with the Kents which resulted in them merging with the N52 versions to rewrite all of reality. In that reality, Jon was born naturally on Earth and the Kents spent ten years together raising him.

What about Chris who was General Zod and Ursa's son adopted by Clark and Lois?

Chris' history with the Kents was wiped out.