"Theybies"

[Spike Spiegel]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

because this gender neutral mess is a relatively new idea

Two-spirit - From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Third gender - From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[plastroncafe]

There is something interesting to be teased out of the, "You are what you are when you're born," however.
The answer to that is just as much sociological as it is biological, and the amounts of each really depend on your personal take on the interplay between nurture vs nature.

There are a whole lot of studies that show that we gender children long before their non-diaper covered bodies exhibit of the characteristics we associate with adult sexual dimorphism.

Girl babies tend to be hand so that they're facing whoever is holding them, where as boy babies are held facing out. Girls are pretty, boys are strong. etc.
We're not really allowed to be what we are when we're born, because from day one...and sometimes even before day one, we're being told who we are, and praised or punished for how we react to that telling.

So with that in mind, when did you first truly feel and recognize your gender, and how do you define that gender?
ie: when did you feel like a boy, and how do you define being a man?

[Spike Spiegel]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

ie: when did you feel like a boy, and how do you define being a man?

My interior life as a child was fertile with fantasies stemming from reading lots of books and watching action cartoons like Batman TAS along with a very early exposure to original Star Trek and TNG. Picard, Kirk, and Riker were men of action but Geordi, Data, Spock, and Bones were just as important due to their intellect. I was an only child and very much of a loner.

As a kid I thought a man was someone who spoke in a deep voice, made wise decisions, and had a kind of implicit authority (over himself and his surroundings, mostly, but sometimes others as well). Someone who keeps his promises and can defend himself, his family, and his friends.

I was also raised in a very fundamentalist Christian environment by a single mother, so that whole "man is the head of his family" thing seemed somewhat contradictory, given my situation.

I don't think about those sorts of things all that much anymore, to be honest.
Many of the male authority figures I met through church were often henpecked by their wives or hypocritical/weak by failing to keep their promises to those around them or failing their faith (one pastor's son I looked up to back then was arrested for molesting an underage girl).

No man lives up to those implicit cultural standards all the time. The motivation for and definition of "being a man" has to come from within, regardless of what is currently fashionable to society at large.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Who wants to be the one to tell Vegita that the concept gender neutrality goes back thousands of years?
And that what we'd define as modern humans around 200,000?
She's got me blocked, so it can't be me.

Vegita-san is a woman?!

[Vegita-San]

I actually identify as an emperor overlord from the planet vespa.

Bow before me as we do our traditional rain dance to the sky demons.

[Leonardo_thebest]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

I actually identify as an emperor overlord from the planet vespa.

Bow before me as we do our traditional rain dance to the sky demons.

I would have never guessed No-Vegetables was a woman. We all learned something today.

She reads like an angry white cis-male.

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by Sumac

It can be achieved without robbing kids from being defined as "women" and "men". Especially, since biologically they always will be women and men.

No one said anything about doing away with genders. What's being discussed is raising a child without the traditionally rigid input of "boy stuff" and "girl stuff". It's not forcing that on either anyone, though.

I'm a teacher. I see girls playing warriors and masculine roles all the time. They want to build robots and fight dragons and go on adventures. Why stop them? Worse, why pull them aside to remind that, while they are allowed to have fun, they have to remember they're still a girl?

I can see that the idea of letting boys play dress up or girls handle power tools may be frightening to some people. It's none of their damn business, though. If a boy wants to be a fashion designer and girl wants to be a weight lifter, I say go for it.

In fact, if you say that boys need to identify out of being defined as boys / men, because, men can't do this and that, it only solidifies traditional gender roles.
This is the same thing, why all this "non-binary+" identities only harm the cause of making women and men more free from gender roles.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

It's basically a logical "hack": instead of making women and men actually more free, by removing traditional understandings of gender roles, those people just create new "genders", which in turn at some point will be as stifling and limiting as the old ones. Then they will need to create new "gender identities" and so on.
This whole idea of new genders or "genderless" people is illogical though and thorough.

No one said anything about creating new genders. And if even if we are talking about that, who cares? Let people be people. I'm not allowed to pick your name, insist on what job title you have, or tell everyone how happy you are when I don't know you from Adam. What gives anyone else the right to do that? Just because some has a penis doesn't meanwe get to make them play with Tonka trucks and toy guns.

Because, even grown up people not always know themselves what they want, much less kids, and can be easily pushed by propaganda or influence of society into harmful directions?
Like kids who go into teenage gangs, start doing drugs and so on.

You started out with a statement that slowly turned into a question.

If you're trying to say that people don't always know what they want, I agree. However, we can't just look at them and decide to help them out with our own opinions. Finding out what you want is a journey you make on your own.

Trust should come in limited amounts, especially when it comes to kids, who have limited experience with other people and life in general.
What if kid will decides that they can fly? Will you as liberal parent will allow it to jump from the roof and applaud how brave and stunning and individual your child is?
What if kid decides to try out drugs? Will you put a syringe in their hands?

This is a slippery slope argument. No one is arguing that children should be given free reign to do anything the please. No one is suggesting kids be allowed to drive, or vote, or play with volatile materials to see if they want to pursue a career in HAZMAT.

This is deciding that, if your 5 year old boy is watching Strawberry Shortcake, you don't change the ****ing channel to G.I. Joe. You just be happy that the kid is trying to figure out what he likes.

Conversely, if your daughter asks for a playschool tool set or a science kit and you tell her that it's only for boys, you're doing it wrong.

Notice that these are healthy areas to explore. If a kid is asking for a good crow bar or a six pack of Bud, any decent parent is going to shut that down. If a kid wants to a home tattoo kit, the answer should a hard "no"

I've actually met some "liberals", who genuinely believe that if person wants to commit suicide they should not be stopped from it, because, it's their right as individual. Needless to say, those people made me even further disgusted with current "liberalism".

It's called assisted suicide, and some people do wish to die on their own terms. Freedom is a double edged sword. On one hand, we are free to pursue our interests so long as they do not infringe upon the rights of others. On the other hand, others may not like our choices.

The nice thing is that you're free to be upset by this, but not to tell people that they're freaks for being comfortable without hurting anyone. That's just not cool.

[Andrew NDB]

I'm totally OK with assisted suicide. I think the more people that want off this Earth, the better, at the current trajectory. I think there should be absolutely no barriers to this barring mental impairment to where they're not of sound mind.

I'm far less OK with parents doing social experiments on their children. Girls playing with boy toys, boys playing with girl toys... that's one thing (my daughter has bought things that could be construed as "boy toys" and I've allowed her to choose literally "boy shoes" at times). Letting 5 year-olds determine much more than which cereal they'd like in the morning, not so much. It's called stepping in and being a parent. When they're 18, they can do whatever they want.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Leonardo_thebest

I would have never guessed No-Vegetables was a woman. We all learned something today.

She reads like an angry white cis-male.

Originally Posted by Prowler

Vegita-san is a woman?!

No, he's male. I watched his youtube interviews of David Wise back in the early 2000's.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by Leonardo_thebest

Thought experiment.

Imagine, just for fun, I started telling you, that you were not you. You argued that you were in fact, you.

Imagine daily, weekly, monthly reinforcements that despite who you knew you were, you were attacked for trying to just be you.

Live it. Honestly. Let everything else go, and imagine being denied the right to just be who you are, because other people had a different opinion about who you were.

Sounds like a living hell to me, and all so somebody else can be okay with who they think you are.

We are talking about normal people risen as if they were something "shapeless", for the lack of the better term, not 0,01 of population with mental problems. So your "thought experiment" doesn't really fit.

Originally Posted by Leonardo_thebest

What gives you the impression anyone cares what you think?

I might ask the same of you.

Originally Posted by Spike Spiegel

Two-spirit - From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Third gender - From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Those people also believed in spirits and deities.
I wouldn't take their idea of human psychology very seriously.
Also, I am pretty sure that those ideas of "two spirits" are actually quite different from modern idea of "gender identity".
Of course, people with agenda will pretend that it is a prove of their position, but in reality it's just lame rewriting of history, which libbies often attribute to their ideological opponents.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

We're not really allowed to be what we are when we're born, because from day one...and sometimes even before day one, we're being told who we are, and praised or punished for how we react to that telling.

It will never change, unless there will be completely sterile society, without any legacy or ideas of what women and men are.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

So with that in mind, when did you first truly feel and recognize your gender, and how do you define that gender?
ie: when did you feel like a boy, and how do you define being a man?

I am who I am and I don't care what people think who I am. I define myself, however, I acknowledge what my sex is and that it is unchangeable and how it linked to some expectations in society I am living in.

Originally Posted by Leonardo_thebest

I would have never guessed No-Vegetables was a woman. We all learned something today.

She reads like an angry white cis-male.

No such things as "cis".
Normality doesn't need prefix to validate others having a prefix.

Originally Posted by Voltron

No one said anything about doing away with genders. What's being discussed is raising a child without the traditionally rigid input of "boy stuff" and "girl stuff". It's not forcing that on either anyone, though.

I'm a teacher. I see girls playing warriors and masculine roles all the time. They want to build robots and fight dragons and go on adventures. Why stop them? Worse, why pull them aside to remind that, while they are allowed to have fun, they have to remember they're still a girl?

I can see that the idea of letting boys play dress up or girls handle power tools may be frightening to some people. It's none of their damn business, though. If a boy wants to be a fashion designer and girl wants to be a weight lifter, I say go for it.

And I completely support this.

Originally Posted by Voltron

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

Let's try again: you have traditional gender roles. And ideas of how men and women should look and act.
Then you you say, if women or men wants to who they are and do what they want to do, they should stop identifying as women or men and start identifying as something else.
Which logically means, that "women" and "men" are indeed a collection of often harmful stereotypes and that can not be changed.
And that person can only be free if they will opt out of being a woman or a man.

Originally Posted by Voltron

No one said anything about creating new genders. And if even if we are talking about that, who cares? Let people be people. I'm not allowed to pick your name, insist on what job title you have, or tell everyone how happy you are when I don't know you from Adam. What gives anyone else the right to do that? Just because some has a penis doesn't meanwe get to make them play with Tonka trucks and toy guns.

It's not about toys. It's about rising kid entirely without concept of being a woman or a man, which is impossible.

Originally Posted by Voltron

You started out with a statement that slowly turned into a question.

If you're trying to say that people don't always know what they want, I agree. However, we can't just look at them and decide to help them out with our own opinions. Finding out what you want is a journey you make on your own.

And sometimes this journey might lead to (self)harm, and this your duty as a parent to step in and stop insanity brewing.

Originally Posted by Voltron

This is a slippery slope argument. No one is arguing that children should be given free reign to do anything the please. No one is suggesting kids be allowed to drive, or vote, or play with volatile materials to see if they want to pursue a career in HAZMAT.

This is deciding that, if your 5 year old boy is watching Strawberry Shortcake, you don't change the ****ing channel to G.I. Joe. You just be happy that the kid is trying to figure out what he likes.

Conversely, if your daughter asks for a playschool tool set or a science kit and you tell her that it's only for boys, you're doing it wrong.

Notice that these are healthy areas to explore. If a kid is asking for a good crow bar or a six pack of Bud, any decent parent is going to shut that down. If a kid wants to a home tattoo kit, the answer should a hard "no"

I am agree with this.

Originally Posted by Voltron

It's called assisted suicide, and some people do wish to die on their own terms. Freedom is a double edged sword. On one hand, we are free to pursue our interests so long as they do not infringe upon the rights of others. On the other hand, others may not like our choices.

The nice thing is that you're free to be upset by this, but not to tell people that they're freaks for being comfortable without hurting anyone. That's just not cool.

No, people who think that helping perfectly healthy people to die, because, they have troubles in their live are batshit insane immoral bastards.
Life is the most precious thing in the world and if some people think that instead helping person it is better to just kill them, those people are outright vile garbage.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I'm totally OK with assisted suicide. I think the more people that want off this Earth, the better, at the current trajectory. I think there should be absolutely no barriers to this barring mental impairment to where they're not of sound mind.

There is a difference between letting people with medical conditions to choose whether they want to live or not and helping to die people in depression, just because they have a rough period of time in their lives.

[Leonardo_thebest]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

No, he's male. I watched his youtube interviews of David Wise back in the early 2000's.

Source? I'd love to see them.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by Sumac

No such things as "cis".
Normality doesn't need prefix to validate others having a prefix.

Bingo. it's just angry people trying to deviate the norm and bring others into their unique world of constantly angry.. I do sometimes wonder why some people are even on this forum when they seem more interested in talking angrily about fringe topics than actually engaging in other things like actual turtle talk.

and for the record, I may not be much of one, but happily identifying as male. whether i am angry or not is in the eye of the beholder.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

Bingo. it's just angry people trying to deviate the norm and bring others into their unique world of constantly angry.. I do sometimes wonder why some people are even on this forum when they seem more interested in talking angrily about fringe topics than actually engaging in other things like actual turtle talk.

They are trolls.
They know that most people don't share their values and never will, so they rub their ideology in the face of everyone.
If they were really interested in actual change, they would have gone with their beliefs to the other places, not in Internet, not a forum about comic book / cartoon characters.

[plastroncafe]

By my logic that would make Vigita male.
Because I accept what people identify as, as their gender.
And I would apologize for misgendering them.

By the logic and admission of other people in this thread, Vegita would need to participate and an examination of both genotype and phenotype to prove that they are male.
And until such time as that proof exists, then they are whatever sex and gender the other people say they are.

One doesn't need to be an adherent of free thought, or particularly educated in either sociology, anthropology, or biology to be respectful and empathetic to those around them.
But those do help.

Also helpful, not conflating the status quo with normal with average.

[Leonardo_thebest]

So, looks like Sumac is once again doing that thing.

Can't we just vote it off the island? I get that it doesn't know any better, and Vagene laughs at all it's jokes, but I don't think it contributes to a better user experience as a whole.

I'm still pretty sure the hostile responses come from some repressed emotions.
We could try and talk that out. Help it to heal.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Also helpful, not conflating the status quo with normal with average.

If it did that, it might be confused with human, for showing empathy. That would be quite out of character.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

By my logic that would make Vigita male.
Because I accept what people identify as, as their gender.
And I would apologize for misgendering them.

By the logic and admission of other people in this thread, Vegita would need to participate and an examination of both genotype and phenotype to prove that they are male.
And until such time as that proof exists, then they are whatever sex and gender the other people say they are.

So my unsaid thought of "I see what you did there" from a couple posts back was accurate.





Some definite screaming about "My comfort zone!" happening around here...

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I'm totally OK with assisted suicide. I think the more people that want off this Earth, the better, at the current trajectory. I think there should be absolutely no barriers to this barring mental impairment to where they're not of sound mind.

I'm far less OK with parents doing social experiments on their children. Girls playing with boy toys, boys playing with girl toys... that's one thing (my daughter has bought things that could be construed as "boy toys" and I've allowed her to choose literally "boy shoes" at times). Letting 5 year-olds determine much more than which cereal they'd like in the morning, not so much. It's called stepping in and being a parent. When they're 18, they can do whatever they want.

What do you think is happening in these families?

[plastroncafe]

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by Leonardo_thebest

Thought experiment.

Imagine, just for fun, I started telling you, that you were not you. You argued that you were in fact, you.

Imagine daily, weekly, monthly reinforcements that despite who you knew you were, you were attacked for trying to just be you.

Live it. Honestly. Let everything else go, and imagine being denied the right to just be who you are, because other people had a different opinion about who you were.

Sounds like a living hell to me, and all so somebody else can be okay with who they think you are.

If your ideology or its proponents cannot withstand criticism and attacks, then it has failed from the very beginning.

[AT-Man]

Originally Posted by Leonardo_thebest

She reads like an angry white cis-male.

Hey, now! I'm an angry white cis-male, and I don't sound or read anything like that.