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Old 10-05-2020, 10:52 PM   #541
Leo656
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After T4, they should have just doubled down on the Future War. Do two good Future War movies, then call it quits. No time travel, no timeline dickery, no protector, no Linda Hamilton, just the war we were promised but have barely even seen.
Absolutely.

It was NEVER about "Back to the Future, but with Killer Robots".

They retroactively MADE it that, and it killed the franchise.
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Old 10-05-2020, 11:31 PM   #542
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The turning point was T4. T4 had the right idea... they just set it up for failure and sure enough. They put McG on it, rushed it out with a poo script, and made it be PG-13.

After T4 kind of scared them away from going forward, T5 and T6 were both "hey! Remember T1 and T2!"
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Old 10-05-2020, 11:41 PM   #543
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The whole thing with Legion was a wasted opportunity.

They basically swapped one AI for another and made just another T800-based cyborg. Yeah, REV9 has some unique stuff, like having processor in his chest, ability to separate itself into liquid unit and endoskeleton unit (taken from one of the books, where liquid terminator TXA could separate itself into multiple units) and ability to control machines by "merging" with them, as opposed to injecting nanites a-la TX, but it's still a T800 derived cyborg.
Also its endoskeleton looks goofy.

REV8 was even more weird, what with canine legs and tentacles, but at least it was something "newer", I guess.

There are so many cool concepts they could use from comic books, like T-Infinity, which can travel through time on his own and can teleport. And he has a cool design to boot. Though maybe he looks a bit more like a transformer. Alternate, less buff design.

There are also T900s, terminator-dogs, terminator-kids, giant spider from liquid metal.
Ya I brought up T Infinity before.

I want Cameron or Miller to explain what they thought they were doing that was so different. Their whole thing leading up was...”we’re doing Terminator the right way”. I’m just curious what the thought process was for the story.

Again the future war should have always come next. I’d even say T2 was unnecessary when the first had the built-in sequel of the war. Still just in terms of this movie their vision does not really come through.

Now that I think of it Skynet might have been ensuring its existence by sending back Carl and the other terminators Sarah mentions. The name change wouldn’t matter to itself. Genisys had multiple terminators sent back too so not a new idea but Legion fits better now.

Maybe Sarah did not properly dispose of one or one went under Carl’s radar. Could have been one that arrived at the same time he did but stayed hidden.
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Old 10-05-2020, 11:42 PM   #544
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"Salvation" isn't even THAT bad.

I feel like a lot of people stayed away because Arnold wasn't in it. People have a bad habit of doing dumb sh*t like that.
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Old 10-06-2020, 01:02 AM   #545
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^ Terminator: Salvation was it's own can of worms but it was actually better than the last two movies that came afterwards, and Arnold was in both of them.

Judgment Day should have been the last movie, but 'Uncle Bob' needed a paycheck.
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Old 10-06-2020, 10:25 AM   #546
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"Salvation" isn't even THAT bad.

I feel like a lot of people stayed away because Arnold wasn't in it. People have a bad habit of doing dumb sh*t like that.
For me it was bad, because, its story was an illogical garbage (thanks Christian Beil!), there were barely any terminators and final duel between John and T-Rip was dumb as ****.
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Old 10-06-2020, 04:45 PM   #547
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They definitely had the right idea but the script sure was choppy.

Still, I'll generally lean towards "good ideas, but flawed execution" over "just plain bad ideas". To me, "Genesysises" and "Dark Fate" were just plain bad ideas that very little could save.

But the Future War movie idea that "Salvation" pursued... COULD have been good. Too many conflicting ideas during the production mucked it up, but the general direction was absolutely the right way to go.

Bale was so very obviously coked out of his mind for that one, though, that it's no surprise he was a problem. I was a fan of his casting and think he did an "okay" job, but I'm not surprised that he caused issues.
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Old 10-07-2020, 04:07 PM   #548
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They definitely had the right idea but the script sure was choppy.

Still, I'll generally lean towards "good ideas, but flawed execution" over "just plain bad ideas". To me, "Genesysises" and "Dark Fate" were just plain bad ideas that very little could save.

But the Future War movie idea that "Salvation" pursued... COULD have been good. Too many conflicting ideas during the production mucked it up, but the general direction was absolutely the right way to go.

Bale was so very obviously coked out of his mind for that one, though, that it's no surprise he was a problem. I was a fan of his casting and think he did an "okay" job, but I'm not surprised that he caused issues.
It's not that he was coked, it's that he demanded to rewrite the whole script to give himself more screen time, which ****ed the movie.
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Old 10-07-2020, 04:13 PM   #549
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I think one can be a symptom of the other quite easily.
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Old 10-07-2020, 05:42 PM   #550
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It kind of should have been about John Connor. But the way it is, they don't really do him justice.

There really wasn't any point to the story in T4 at all. Think about it. What was actually accomplished? All we really learned was how John got his scar.
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Old 10-07-2020, 06:03 PM   #551
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The turning point was T4. T4 had the right idea... they just set it up for failure and sure enough. They put McG on it, rushed it out with a poo script, and made it be PG-13.

After T4 kind of scared them away from going forward, T5 and T6 were both "hey! Remember T1 and T2!"
I agree T4 was the precise moment when the franchise fell off the rails. Everything since then has been desperate and failed attempts to start a new franchise by soft-rebooting the first two films. That ship has sailed.

I got some enjoyment out of Sarah Conner Chronicles, though I don't know that the payoff was all that satisfying.
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Old 10-07-2020, 11:58 PM   #552
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Behind the scenes problems aside I consider Salvation the best sequel (so far) for actually taking place during the war with an assortment of other machines and having the heroes actually take on Skynet’s base...at least one of them.
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Old 10-08-2020, 03:14 AM   #553
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Behind the scenes problems aside I consider Salvation the best sequel (so far) for actually taking place during the war with an assortment of other machines and having the heroes actually take on Skynet’s base...at least one of them.
I applaud them for post-T3 sticking to their guns and saying, "OK, Future War now!" But not the way they went about it. Maybe a T5 in the same line could have remedied things, I don't know (but not the one McG was pushing! he wanted an army of Terminators arriving in modern day from time travel).

In my mind, T4 should have just picked up 10-15 years from T3. Show John becoming that leader. Show him earn it. But make it Saving Private Ryan/Apocalypse Now style. With machines instead of Viet Cong. Varied machines. Ease us into the craziness with plastic Terminators and dogs and all that. Then give it a big finale. And two more movies with more of that, upping the ante, maybe finishing with showing where SkyNET got the skins for the Arnold one, the Robert Patrick one, and the Kristanna Loken one. Last scene of T6 is a deaged Biehn going back in time. Done. Perfect symmetry. End it right there.
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Old 10-08-2020, 03:28 AM   #554
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I mean, probably not in the same detail but I pretty much felt that was vaguely the direction they were gonna go with things. Okay, "Salvation" underwhelmed. So? "They'll just do better next time." Simple.

The absolute last thing I expected - or wanted - was for them to just start playing the "Last movie didn't happen" card, and then repeatedly doubling down on it.

Stories are supposed to move forward, not constantly loop back on themselves. Now what WAS at one time a straightforward action/adventure story told across several films, is a tangled mess of incoherent continuity and bisecting conflicting parallel timelines which you'd need a graph or a flow chart to explain to anyone. With the cherry on top being that almost half of the movies in the series simply "didn't happen" now, which is about the laziest thing you can do from a writing standpoint, even when it's ultimately for the best. It just feels like cheating to say, "Yeah, that stuff we had you believe last time just plain doesn't count." I never really LOVE it, regardless of medium or story. Sometimes, you have to, but it's inarguably a very lazy thing to do.

And one could argue that none of it was necessary with Terminator. "Salvation" may not have been perfect or even incredibly good, but it also wasn't terrible. Worst thing about it is that it could be called a "placeholder" movie in which nothing too incredibly significant ultimately happened. It didn't screw anything up SO badly that a fifth movie couldn't have continued the same story and moved things forward in that timeline.

As soon as they threw everything out after that one, instead of trying to stay the course and just do a little better next time out, I knew the series was f*cked. It showed that they had no direction past "Remind people of the GOOD Terminator movies, over and over again", and no commitment to continuing the stories they set out to tell. "Here's a story. Oh, you don't like it? Okay, REBOOT, nevermind, it didn't happen! How about this? You like this? No? Okay... REBOOT!"

That should never, EVER be standard operating procedure. Staying the course after "Salvation" and just trying to make the fifth movie better was absolutely, 100% what should have happened. None of this double-back reboot/retcon/multiverse timeline stuff.

Nothing about the series was broken until they went and f*cking broke it.
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Old 10-08-2020, 04:38 AM   #555
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Basically, things died when they started treating Terminator like product and not a robust thing that connected with generations. Kind of of like TMNT.

Honestly, we're lucky we even got as good of a T3 as we did. I know that Arnold himself injected some monies into it to make it better. After that, all bets were off.

Dark Fate was like the worst choice ever. Like, "Last movie, there's a multiverse and it all matters except it didn't matter because T1 and T2 were overridden... so now we're going to make absolutely all Terminator movies not matter, not even SkyNET or John Connor. Plus maybe we can sneak some attacks on the White House's treatment of illegal immigrants? Who's with me???"

Nobody, apparently. Nice way to tank an already ailing franchise.

Although jeeze. How to save Terminator after not T4 but T5. Because this is an important distinction. I guess after "Genisys" I would have maintained the loosey goosey "SkyNET knows all timelines" thing but thrust into the ultimate Future War movie. Like, we think we're watching the end of it in T6 as always prophecized. But SkyNET seems oddly ahead of the curve, or maybe we see tech the Terminators shouldn't have yet in 2029. But John Connor and TechCOM find some way to persevere.

The hope angle? OK. When Reese goes back to 1984 this time, maybe Connor whispers something new in his ear that may break the chain. Maybe. Something like this was what I was rooting for. The actual "Genisys" we got shot that dead, making my hopes for T6 pretty grim.

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Old 10-08-2020, 12:18 PM   #556
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And two more movies with more of that, upping the ante, maybe finishing with showing where SkyNET got the skins for the Arnold one, the Robert Patrick one, and the Kristanna Loken one. Last scene of T6 is a deaged Biehn going back in time. Done. Perfect symmetry. End it right there.
Cut scene from T3 explained how T800 got its appearance.
And original script for T4 had moment where that female doctor from the beginning of the movie, shows Marcus T1000 and TX in early stages of development.
Also, early script had that Skynet wasn't trying to kill humanity, but turn people into hybrids, like Marcus.

There is a comic book sequel which plays with this idea and ends up with truce between humanity and Skynet. And John Connor becoming a terminator with a family.
Its actually pretty decent.

And I agree: erasing past works from the timeline and going for a dumb reboot is not a way to go.

At least T5 gave somewhat hopeful ending.
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