TMNT #116 Preview and Discussion

[staypuftweepel]

I think as a kid I probably would have liked to see the TMNT play in a battle of the bands in some zany 90s comic. Hell I use to make my own TMNT concerts with the rock star toys. I can just picture some Ken Mitchroney art showing this in an Adventures comic. And it would have been great back then. This however is not a zany 90s comic, the Turtles aren’t even involved, and I’m 37. I don’t know who the audience is for this. There’s only like 2-3 people on here saying this is great while everyone else thinks this is lame. Kids aren’t even reading this. If kids were reading Turtles they’d have jumped ship once it got too boring and all of those kid friendly IDW comics wouldn’t have been canceled. I don’t think the art and storytelling works well for this type of story.

At this point I just think the editor needs to step in and move the book in a different direction. Also having Jennika “the brand new female turtle” be a punk rocker is one of the most cliche things you could do with her. Does every woman in every comic have to be punk and counter culture? I think she would be better as a Beatrix Kiddo type of character and not just the same girl you see in every cartoon nowadays. I think even making the porcupine into Jennika’s friend is lame. Does every character have to become friends now?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I have no doubt that very much of what they've been doing is indeed out of spite.

The old Vince McMahon Logic. "People hate this? Cram it down their throats! That'll teach 'em... people will like what I TELL them to like!"

Always a sound strategy. That's why his business is doing so well, with record-high ratings and buyrates and... oh. Oh, my. You mean business is at a 40-year low, nobody's watching the product and if it weren't for Saudi blood money and high advertising rates they'd be completely in the sh*tter and possibly out of business? Golly, how on EARTH did THAT ever happen?!

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Something about making a story about music in a comic book isn't going to go well, it isn't like a show/movie where you can hear the music playing.

I get the feeling we should be glad we can't hear it...

Originally Posted by phillytmnt

I’m glad that after 16 issues post 100,we are getting a climactic battle in the form of a rock concert. Hopefully the next big battle will be decided by beer pong. Is this still a TMNT comic?

Strip poker. It's why all the Turtles are wearing clothes now. *points at forehead*

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

Also Diamond is probably a good drummer too. I wonder who they will get for the vocals.

Well, there's a certain Japanese national coming back into play soon, so... I bet you the guy kills at karaoke. Among other things.

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

I'm pretty sure if we count the first mention, the band took about 10 issues to resolve. Even for a comic known for it's slow burn storytelling, that seems a bit excessive.

Imagine if ten years ago someone had told you that the major slow burn plots of this comic would be Kitsune's master plan, Null's master plan, and then the battle of the bands.

Originally Posted by lonewarrior20

i wonder if rural route 5's important to diamond since it was painted on her wall and i had a thought, since we keep seeing peoples flashbacks maybe we'll see what diamond and who ever the other band members looked like before they mutated.

I'd much rather read a whole issue on Diamond's backstory that Jen & the Mutagrams, but at least it's almost over.

Originally Posted by staypuftweepel

I think she would be better as a Beatrix Kiddo type of character and not just the same girl you see in every cartoon nowadays.

I was gonna suggest O-Ren, but we already have Karai... Jenny seems like she might end up as Vernita, making a go of a normal life some day or literally dying trying.

Originally Posted by staypuftweepel

I think even making the porcupine into Jennika’s friend is lame. Does every character have to become friends now?

Yeah, it's a lot more fun when they're ticking time bombs like Stockman.

[FrederikWolferson]

There are mangas that sell more then all the monthly American comics combined. Nobody knows why.

[Cloudrunner]

Originally Posted by FrederikWolferson

There are mangas that sell more then all the monthly American comics combined. Nobody knows why.

Because manga stories tend to embrace the fantasy of whatever they are writing about, creating an immersive and different world that people can get lost in. Escapism is a huge deal, and western media (from comics, to movies, to games, etc) seems to have forgotten that in favor of stories that tie into or relate to real world events instead. Though a major part of that is people who are activists first, creatives second, and feel the need to inject political viewpoints or worldviews into everything.

Meanwhile those guys in Japan are more focused on telling good stories and giving fans what they want. And the difference in sales is astronomical. The top shonen jump mangas put even Marvel and DC's golden years to shame, and even low end manga tend to surpass sales of some of the most iconic western comics these days.

Honestly with how ****ed the comic industry is and how much of a juggernaut the manga industry is... you'd think the people in charge would get a clue and want to take a few pointers. But instead they wanna double down and drive their franchises into the dirt while continuing to hire activists from Tumblr to write for them.

[Andrew NDB]

There is some pretty weird manga out there, but that's not a bad thing. While I don't see much of a pulse on there being a lot of actual activism in manga, there are definitely some components that could be construed as "political statements" threaded into many things... but never at the detriment of the story and characters, and never the driving energy behind it.

Though manga/anime/JRPGs does love their shady, evil megacorporations, for sure. Though I think it is more simply because these make for a consistently reliable antagonist force and less because these manga creators are trying to make a statement about Microsoft or Apple or anything.

[frank_one]

I agree with everything you've said, Cloudrunner. The magic of telling a story just for the sake of it, that's something our part of the world has forgotten. Now it's all about pushing empty, stereotypical characters around trying to please minorances or to convey politic views.

Sad, sad, sad.

[ChosenOne]

Political view, singular. It's always the same ideology. The other side, the normal folks, don't care one iota about pushing their agenda through entertainment and instead are only looking for good escapist fun. This will be a very interesting time for the historians of the future to study...

[Sophie Campbell]

I think comparing Japanese comics to the American direct market is apples and oranges, it's such a different marketplace/industry. Obviously the direct market has been in the toilet since the speculator boom in the 90s, but original non-licensed comics in the book market have continued to blow up and do insane numbers, like Raina Telgemeier stuff or the Amulet series, it's more similar to manga where it's original, new stories/characters and not revamped decades-old licensed material. The book market tends to be for younger audiences, though, maybe manga is like what American book market comics would be like if it had a broader age range. Every so often North America will get something that does manga-like numbers for older readers, like Scott Pilgrim, but that's like lightning in a bottle. Maybe someday we'll get there.

[Sophie Campbell]

Originally Posted by Mutant Ninja Anole

It appears the ‘music dealing with your past haunting trauma’ story is an ongoing theme.

I do wonder if this story was in part derived from old Jem and the Holograms story ideas Campbell never got to tell.

No, I wasn't the writer on Jem, that was Kelly Thompson! I did get to write the Dimensions one-shot, though, I worked out all my leftover Jem wishes on that.

This current TMNT arc (113-117) actually originally had Armaggon in it, it was more like a Terminator thing, darker with more murder, and the music part was a much smaller aspect, so it definitely wasn't born out of unused Jem ideas.

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by Sophie Campbell

This current TMNT arc (113-117) actually originally had Armaggon in it, it was more like a Terminator thing, darker with more murder, and the music part was a much smaller aspect, so it definitely wasn't born out of unused Jem ideas.

See, I read this and all I can think of is that you missed a chance, an historical groundbreaking chance, to have Armaggon tussle with Bebop, Rocksteady, Tokka and Rahzar... How could you?!

Disclaimer: I haven't read #115 yet and won't get it until Wednesday, so I'm just assuming there was a fight based on everything we've seen.

[Sophie Campbell]

Originally Posted by staypuftweepel

At this point I just think the editor needs to step in and move the book in a different direction.

The editor is very involved, he's the only thing keeping me from killing all the characters and turning the book into a bloodbath.

[Mutant Ninja Anole]

Originally Posted by Sophie Campbell

No, I wasn't the writer on Jem, that was Kelly Thompson! I did get to write the Dimensions one-shot, though, I worked out all my leftover Jem wishes on that.

This current TMNT arc (113-117) actually originally had Armaggon in it, it was more like a Terminator thing, darker with more murder, and the music part was a much smaller aspect, so it definitely wasn't born out of unused Jem ideas.

Ah, I confess I didn't read Jem so I'd forgotten that.

I don't think it's wrong to look at what manga and anime is doing and ponder why many kids and adults enjoy those instead of western comics and cartoons, but you are right that it's not a 1 to 1 comparison. And that we are, or have already moved on from newstands to things like trade paperbacks and such for comics/graphic novels. TMNT comics are one of a handful of comics I've bought as they came out, as opposed to reading the trade (Hoopla and Libby are great).

[Sophie Campbell]

Originally Posted by Mutant Ninja Anole

I don't think it's wrong to look at what manga and anime is doing and ponder why many kids and adults enjoy those instead of western comics and cartoons, but you are right that it's not a 1 to 1 comparison.

Oh definitely, we should absolutely look at manga and figure out why it's overall so popular, I didn't mean we should just ignore it from a marketing/sales standpoint. I had a huge manga phase when I was younger, it was like a whole new world.

[CyberCubed]

Manga is usually written and drawn by 1 person with a set ending in mind. American comics have constantly changing writers/artists and are written as if they can go on forever until whenever they get canceled.

[Sophie Campbell]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Manga is usually written and drawn by 1 person with a set ending in mind. American comics have constantly changing writers/artists and are written as if they can go on forever until whenever they get canceled.

Only American monthly comics, that's partly why I said it's apples and oranges and the book market is a better comparison, where it's more creator-driven the way Japanese comics is. There are some monthly series driven by one or two creators like at Image or Oni/Lion Forge, but licensed monthly comics are their own beast.

[staypuftweepel]

Originally Posted by Sophie Campbell

The editor is very involved, he's the only thing keeping me from killing all the characters and turning the book into a bloodbath.

Interesting, so it sounds like a case of too much editorial haha. As a fan you never really know what’s going on inside the company. You can only speculate. I would imagine it’d be tough as writer, because if editorial was making decisions that fans disliked pretty much all of the criticism lands on the you. Also, I read your comments above. It would have been neat to see Armaggon show up here. Was your plan for TMNT post 100 very different from how things have become?

[neatoman]

Editors are definitely part of a manga's direction. We were talking about Dragon Ball earlier and Toriyama wasn't exactly shy about talking about how his editors influenced him. The characters 16, 17, 18 and Cell (not to mention his various transformations) were only introduced because the editor wasn't satisfied with the designs of 19 and Gero, and kept complaining about the new villains' designs until Cell achieved his perfect form. When it came to aging Goku up he had to argue with the editors in order to make them understand the change was necessary, otherwise the series couldn't go in the more action oriented direction they wanted because it's too hard to draw convincing fight scenes with a child. The new Broly movie essentially exists because an editor convinced him that he should write a Broly centric story. And finally, the character Mashirito from Dr. Slump is a very obvious parody of the editor Kazuhiko Torishima, making fun of how Torishima kept rejecting his pitches.

So yes, technically a series like Dragon Ball is creator driven, Jump doesn't own the copyright as far as I can tell, they just publish it. That doesn't mean editors don't have any power, they still approve of ideas and it is their call to cancel the series if it performs poorly. I doubt we would ever see a Dragon Ball story where Goku snorts space cocaine and crushes Chi-Chi's head, even if that is what Toriyama really wanted.

[Sophie Campbell]

Originally Posted by staypuftweepel

Interesting, so it sounds like a case of too much editorial haha. As a fan you never really know what’s going on inside the company. You can only speculate. I would imagine it’d be tough as writer, because if editorial was making decisions that fans disliked pretty much all of the criticism lands on the you. Also, I read your comments above. It would have been neat to see Armaggon show up here. Was your plan for TMNT post 100 very different from how things have become?

No way, it's just the right amount of editorial! Bobby is great. He lets me do a lot of what I want and helps finesse it, other times I'm not sure of something and he helps hash it out, other times I come to him with a bananas idea (like turning April into a mutant fly for example) and he'll have me sell him on it and then I realize yeah it's a stupid idea.

My original pitch for post-100 had similar beats to what we're ending up with, but it was way more frenzied with more "big" things happening I guess you could put it, it involved Terrorpin (which I don't recall if we even have the rights to) and would have ended with a Mutant Town guerrilla warfare thing which I think was a good call to remove because it felt too similar to City at War. It also had things that were too much, like Raph gouging out Hob's other eye and Terrorpin eating Hob, and even MORE characters were involved like Shadow Jones (SOMEDAY I'll get her into the comic! lol). My initial pitch was definitely too much, I tried to cram way too much in.

Originally Posted by neatoman

So yes, technically a series like Dragon Ball is creator driven, Jump doesn't own the copyright as far as I can tell, they just publish it. That doesn't mean editors don't have any power, they still approve of ideas and it is their call to cancel the series if it performs poorly.

Yeah of course, I didn't mean editors don't do anything (except at Image or Iron Circus for example which don't employ editors), they're a big factor of the American book market comics I've been talking about since it operates more like traditional prose publishing. I mean creator-driven as in it's typically the creator who brings the story to the editor, the editor helps them shape it, and the creator is often the focus from a marketing standpoint.

[lonewarrior20]

[QUOTE=Sophie (like turning April into a mutant fly for example.)[/QUOTE]
Would love to see the concept art.