New CGI movie

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

So there's pretty much little to no Mirage influence on this project?

What's the point for TMNT comics fans to see this then?

We don't know anything about this project aside from who the director, writer, producer and the main tool to render it are. For all we know, it could be the most accurate adaptation to date or it could be the least accurate to date. We should probably wait a while for more details to surface to make such statements. Predicting using their previous works might be a good indicator but says very little about this particular project.

We should probably wait for more details that would suggest a direction. Like who are the villains of the movie? What stories, if any, will it use for a basis? What's the character design like?

[D-ray]

If it as the same kind of CGI that the 2007 movie, I'm down with it!

[Leo656]

I didn't really have much problem with the art style. For the Turtles, anyway. They were fine. The human characters, I was less enamored with.

The art style was probably the very best thing about the entire movie, honestly.

Realistically, though, it's a "new version" and they've even gone so far as to call it a "reimagining", so no. It'll be a brand-new art style completely. We'll just have to wait and see what they come up with.

For one thing, you know they'll likely have tons of "pieces of flair" all over them because that's what's hip and trendy, now - and maybe more importantly, far too many "nude" or "Vanilla" versions of the TMNT already exist in action figure form with them just wearing belts and pads. Just being "drawn" different won't be enough to stand out or get people to buy them when there's already the NECA Movie line, NECA FW line, and Super7 lines of toys that all have the "Just Belts and Pads" Turtles represented. So obviously they'll have some of the same stuff the PD Turtles had, like pants and sunglasses and stuff, just because they have to sell more toys that stand out in the market as being "unique" (especially for parents buying this stuff for their kids).

Hope not, I prefer the "simple" look the best by far, and think all the "flair" is pointless and dumb, but they probably will go that way. Just have to wait and see. But I don't think it's a very bold prediction at all. Donnie wearing glasses or goggles or both, for example, has become "standard", now, so you can pretty much put money down on at least that, as well as all the arm and calf wraps and what have you.

I really hope they avoid the temptation they keep caving in to on making Donnie a scrawny, lanky nerd and Raph being a roided-out giant Hulk. I don't even like them having dramatically different body types to begin with, it's very contrived and silly, but the way they go SO overboard with it in recent iterations is really irritating.

[newfan]

Originally Posted by Leo656

The human characters, I was less enamored with.
.

Some of the human characters had a kinda Disney feel to me.

At least with a theatre release there is a good chance of decent CGI quality (hopes), as others have said, just a matter of waiting to see what they are going for and what designs come up.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by newfan

Some of the human characters had a kinda Disney feel to me.

Little bit. Not sure I really liked it, though. I felt like it was a bit *too* stylized. Never been a huge fan of exaggerated proportions or Big Head/Skinny neck stuff. But that's just an opinion.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by neatoman

We don't know anything about this project aside from who the director, writer, producer and the main tool to render it are. For all we know, it could be the most accurate adaptation to date or it could be the least accurate to date. We should probably wait a while for more details to surface to make such statements. Predicting using their previous works might be a good indicator but says very little about this particular project.

We should probably wait for more details that would suggest a direction. Like who are the villains of the movie? What stories, if any, will it use for a basis? What's the character design like?

I'm sorry. I thought it was mentioned earlier that it was going to be similar to the 2007 film and be containing large bits of humor. If that's not a given, my mistake.

[Leo656]

Every single news article reporting on it has a line containing some variation of, "It's Seth Rogen, so of course it's going to at least be funny." So nobody's wrong for making the assumption that it will have a lot of... "humor". Pretty much everyone who pays attention is saying that will inevitably be the case. To what degree, well, that we'll have to wait and see.

People hanging onto the fact that he worked on Preacher and The Boys and even entertaining the notion that it might be some semi-gritty, "dark", comics-based piece of work are seriously forgetting that those projects weren't being overseen by Nickelodeon, nor were they CGI (the very fact that it's CGI heavily implies it to be far more kid-centric than anything. CGI = Kids Movie as far as the general audience is concerned, there's honestly no reason at all to suspect this will be an outlier). Seth may or may not have his own preferences or level of "fandom" for TMNT - and I'm still very suspect of that idea, personally - but he's still just a Hired Gun, albeit one with some amount of stroke. But he's still not gonna be the one calling the BIG shots. And even if he was, well... he's still kind of an idiot so he probably shouldn't be the one calling the BIG shots, anyway.

It's Nick, it's CGI, it's gonna be a kid-focused movie with lots of humor with maybe some lowbrow stuff for the Dads and definitely, definitely some low-key stoner humor (probably involving Mikey). None of that is baseless speculation, it's merely a very educated guess based on every single thing we know. You can in fact assume quite a bit, just based on three factors: 1. Nick (= "Kids Movie"), 2. CGI (= "Kids Movie"), 3. Seth Rogen (= "Dumb Movie" ). You can pretty much guess what you're getting. It might not be literally like "Sausage Party", but it will definitely be a lot more like that than "Beowulf". You can't predict EVERYTHING based on those three key factors, but you can predict a lot. To say "You can't" or even "You shouldn't", well... that's a lie. You can, for sure... "should"? Eh, why not.

Here's a few of my other predictions, based more on gut instincts than anything else:

- Black April
- Prominent Bebop and Rocksteady
- Nerd Donnie and Hulk Raph (it's pretty much mandatory, nowadays)

But those are just based on current trends, both Real World and TMNT-related. They're not things I predict will happen because of Seth being involved, I just think they're pretty much a guarantee, anyway, and in truth his involvement does probably make all three of them more likely. Especially the first two.

If he comes out swinging with a PG-13 Mirage riff, I'll gladly eat a hat, but... there's really absolutely nothing to make a person suspect that will happen. But there's lots of reasons to suspect The Other Stuff.

But yeah, it'll be a "comedy". Will it be "funny"? That... will most likely depend on how each individual feels about Seth Rogen more than anything else.

[AquaParade]

I guess somewhere along the line I stopped expecting a TMNT movie to be be the product directly aimed at me, were that ever to happen. If this is family-friendly, but still of great quality in the animation, writing, acting, action departments, I'll be pretty happy. I like an edge to my tmnt but can still have great character and drama without those, at least to the level of the 1990 film, which I admit is a tad edgy itself.

I sort of have my mind set on a streaming series when it comes to the ultimate tmnt adaption now. It just seems more viable, given the model.

As for designs, I'm also tired of "hulk raph" and "lanky don", or anything really that that further cements them, heavy-handidly, into one distinct personality type. I know that it is smart character design to bring out the personality however you can through physicality, clothing, etc, but I'd like a more subtle touch.

I do like the "flair" though. I've always loved the looks that Barron and McCarthy were cooking up for their abandoned tmnt sequel.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

If this is family-friendly, but still of great quality in the animation, writing, acting, action departments, I'll be pretty happy.

To be blunt, that's a balancing act that they've yet to achieve even once for this franchise. 1990 film comes close, but apparently wasn't "family-friendly" enough and some people find the action subpar due to technical limitations. I think those criticisms are mostly bullsh*t and nonsense, but they're things people have said.

Most iterations excel in one or two of those areas. But all of them at once? Seth Rogen? Eh. I doubt he's that good of a puppet-master or juggler or whatever. if I shake my magic 8-Ball and ask it if "The Superbad Guy" is gonna be the one to finally "crack the code" for TMNT... "All Signs Point To No", says my heart and my gut.

Of course, "The sun even shines on a dog's ass some days," according to renowned prophet and scholar Wesley Snipes, but... I just can't see it. I really don't see anyone involved taking the project all that seriously, for a multitude of reasons. Those reasons aren't specifically about him but he's a factor in why I think that, sure. I just don't think anyone handling the brand gives a sh*t about anything except milking it like a tired mama cow, based on the last ten years and every new thing that comes out being worse than the one before it. They're gonna pull the nose up on it NOW? Why bother? They can spend $50 million on a "safe" little animated kids' movie, half-ass it A to Z, make 100 mil or so (which is doghs*t but better than nothing), break even or even make a small profit off of the merchandising, sit back for a couple years and do it again, rinse and repeat. They've shown they don't care what critics think, and they've shown they don't care what the fans think; as long as they break even, they'll just reshuffle the deck, reboot again, and do it every 5-10 years or so. And never once will they have to Try Hard because they know they have a built-in audience that's willing to settle for less. Once you know that for a fact, you're just Elvis playing Vegas. You're never going to reach your former glory and you're never gonna try... but mostly because, you don't have to.

They know they have no incentive to make it "good", so why would they even break a sweat trying? Pride in their work? Pssssssssshhhhhhh.

Frankly I think they brought Seth onto the project solely to attach a "name" to the project who appeals to a large section of the TMNT audience, and bring along a little "goodwill and reassurance" in the sense that he's everything Michael Bay is not. Also, brownie points for them in the sense that he's been on the news very recently for telling "certain people" that he doesn't want them to watch his films anymore, and is being touted as heroic for doing so. So that gets them a little more attention by putting someone "super-woke" in charge of the project at a time when that's apparently the most important thing in getting your project started.

But ultimately, to put it simply and harshly, I think it's all smoke and mirrors and people are falling for it because they have Battered Wives Syndrome. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but again, that's genuinely what my gut says. But hey, if not, then good. I suppose I could be wrong... eventually. Certainly hasn't happened YET but I guess maybe that just means I'm due.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Leo656

To be blunt, that's a balancing act that they've yet to achieve even once for this franchise. 1990 film comes close, but apparently wasn't "family-friendly" enough and some people find the action subpar due to technical limitations. I think those criticisms are mostly bullsh*t and nonsense, but they're things people have said.

Most iterations excel in one or two of those areas. But all of them at once? Seth Rogen? Eh. I doubt he's that good of a puppet-master or juggler or whatever. if I shake my magic 8-Ball and ask it if "The Superbad Guy" is gonna be the one to finally "crack the code" for TMNT... "All Signs Point To No", says my heart and my gut.

Of course, "The sun even shines on a dog's ass some days," according to renowned profit and scholar Wesley Snipes, but... I just can't see it. I really don't see anyone involved taking the project all that seriously, for a multitude of reasons. Those reasons aren't specifically about him but he's a factor in why I think that, sure. I just don't think anyone handling the brand gives a sh*t about anything except milking it like a tired mama cow, based on the last ten years and every new thing that comes out being worse than the one before it. They're gonna pull the nose up on it NOW? Why bother? They can spend $50 million on a "safe" little animated kids' movie, half-ass it A to Z, make 100 mil or so (which is doghs*t but better than nothing), break even or even make a small profit off of the merchandising, sit back for a couple years and do it again, rinse and repeat. They've shown they don't care what critics think, and they've shown they don't care what the fans think; as long as they break even, they'll just reshuffle the deck, reboot again, and do it every 5-10 years or so. And never once will they have to Try Hard because they know they have a built-in audience that's willing to settle for less. Once you know that for a fact, you're just Elvis playing Vegas. You're never going to reach your former glory and you're never gonna try... but mostly because, you don't have to.

They know they have no incentive to make it "good", so why would they even break a sweat trying? Pride in their work? Pssssssssshhhhhhh.

Frankly I think they brought Seth onto the project solely to attach a "name" to the project who appeals to a large section of the TMNT audience, and bring along a little "goodwill and reassurance" in the sense that he's everything Michael Bay is not. Also, brownie points for them in the sense that he's been on the news very recently for telling "certain people" that he doesn't want them to watch his films anymore, and is being touted as heroic for doing so. So that gets them a little more attention by putting someone "super-woke" in charge of the project at a time when that's apparently the most important thing in getting your project started.

But ultimately, to put it simply and harshly, I think it's all smoke and mirrors and people are falling for it because they have Battered Wives Syndrome. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but again, that's genuinely what my gut says. But hey, if not, then good. I suppose I could be wrong... eventually. Certainly hasn't happened YET but I guess maybe that just means I'm due.

Why must you ALWAYS say what I'm thinking? You save me a lot of typing. Thanks!

[ProphetofGanja]

If Into the Spiderverse is any kind of inspiration for this flick, it could be good

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

Why must you ALWAYS say what I'm thinking? You save me a lot of typing. Thanks!

I just call 'em like I see 'em, brother. All Observe and Report, all deductive reasoning, very little emotion. Never, ever "I hope" or "I wish". That's a sucker's game! What I want them to do or would like them to do... that ain't what they're gonna do so I'm not even gonna pretend it's a factor. I just look at what's In Play, take the current cultural temperature and viola.

Anybody can do it. Anybody can be right all the time if they feel like it. They just gotta get rid of those pesky little emotions that interfere with their objective reasoning skills. "Forecasting" is very, very easy when you realize that nobody cares at all about What You Want. When that's no longer a factor, even hypothetically, all you can do is weigh the evidence that exists and go from there.

I don't claim to speak for other people, but it's cool when I accidentally do anyway. Makes me feel like John Nada in "They Live" and I've just found another ally who's hip to the game. "Put the glasses on!"

Originally Posted by ProphetofGanja

If Into the Spiderverse is any kind of inspiration for this flick, it could be good

The people who own Spider-Man give a sh*t about Spider-Man. That's kind of a huge differentiating factor between Spider-Man and Ninja Turtles. In the eyes of their respective owners, Spider-Man is a cash cow, TMNT is just a cheap whore. That makes all the difference in the world.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Leo656

To be blunt, that's a balancing act that they've yet to achieve even once for this franchise. 1990 film comes close, but apparently wasn't "family-friendly" enough and some people find the action subpar due to technical limitations. I think those criticisms are mostly bullsh*t and nonsense, but they're things people have said.

Most iterations excel in one or two of those areas. But all of them at once? Seth Rogen? Eh. I doubt he's that good of a puppet-master or juggler or whatever. if I shake my magic 8-Ball and ask it if "The Superbad Guy" is gonna be the one to finally "crack the code" for TMNT... "All Signs Point To No", says my heart and my gut.

Of course, "The sun even shines on a dog's ass some days," according to renowned prophet and scholar Wesley Snipes, but... I just can't see it. I really don't see anyone involved taking the project all that seriously, for a multitude of reasons. Those reasons aren't specifically about him but he's a factor in why I think that, sure. I just don't think anyone handling the brand gives a sh*t about anything except milking it like a tired mama cow, based on the last ten years and every new thing that comes out being worse than the one before it. They're gonna pull the nose up on it NOW? Why bother? They can spend $50 million on a "safe" little animated kids' movie, half-ass it A to Z, make 100 mil or so (which is doghs*t but better than nothing), break even or even make a small profit off of the merchandising, sit back for a couple years and do it again, rinse and repeat. They've shown they don't care what critics think, and they've shown they don't care what the fans think; as long as they break even, they'll just reshuffle the deck, reboot again, and do it every 5-10 years or so. And never once will they have to Try Hard because they know they have a built-in audience that's willing to settle for less. Once you know that for a fact, you're just Elvis playing Vegas. You're never going to reach your former glory and you're never gonna try... but mostly because, you don't have to.

They know they have no incentive to make it "good", so why would they even break a sweat trying? Pride in their work? Pssssssssshhhhhhh.

Frankly I think they brought Seth onto the project solely to attach a "name" to the project who appeals to a large section of the TMNT audience, and bring along a little "goodwill and reassurance" in the sense that he's everything Michael Bay is not. Also, brownie points for them in the sense that he's been on the news very recently for telling "certain people" that he doesn't want them to watch his films anymore, and is being touted as heroic for doing so. So that gets them a little more attention by putting someone "super-woke" in charge of the project at a time when that's apparently the most important thing in getting your project started.

But ultimately, to put it simply and harshly, I think it's all smoke and mirrors and people are falling for it because they have Battered Wives Syndrome. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but again, that's genuinely what my gut says. But hey, if not, then good. I suppose I could be wrong... eventually. Certainly hasn't happened YET but I guess maybe that just means I'm due.

Sure, but if you asked your magic 8-ball if the director of the Hangover would direct Joker to the highest-grossing R-rated film of all time, what do you think it would have said? "LMAO. No". How about if Michael Keaton is a good choice for casting Batman, back in the 80's? "You fool."
I think the easiest mistake to make, especially when it comes to those of us who follow movies online, is to put someone into a box. It's the same with the egregious casting blow-back we saw with Heath Ledger, Ben Affleck, etc...

That's why I'm willing to give Seth Rogen a chance. Simply because people break out of the preconceived notions people place on them all the time in the entertainment industry. It's not rare at all and ignoring that is like the CLASSIC mistake you see people making all the time online. I could be wrong in this case, but I think it's a better mindset to adopt and it often serves me well.

I don't think it's at all battered-wife syndrome. I think that implication says more about how you feel about the franchise, quite honestly. Again, I don't see a bad tmnt movie as a "battering". It ain't that serious. At least to me, at this point in the franchise life.

I'll enjoy the comics, the 90's movie stuff, and when a Seth Rogen produced film comes along, I'll shrug and follow along to see what happens. I don't need to be pessimistic, because if it sucks, I'm not going to blow my brains out all over the forum, tbqh. Not saying you will, but I think "battered wife" syndrome implies that it may be more dire for you than it is for me. But who's to say.

[Leo656]

But you're still gonna care. And you're still gonna hope the next time will be better. That's silly. People need to stop doing that. The term "Battered Wives Syndrome" applies better to this franchise than just about any that I can think of, because for some reason, in spite of ALL evidence and objective reasoning... some people actually think that there'e ever gonna be another good movie. They think Nick actually cares about this property. They're happy whenever a new Nick TMNT project is announced. They keep getting black eyes, but they don't leave. "Battered wives", the whole lot'a ya. If it weren't true, I wouldn't say it. It's painful to watch. And t'were it up to me you all wouldn't suffer needlessly, you'd smarten up and get wise.

Nobody needs to "blow their brains out", but I do care about TMNT and I do care about movies. I think the brand deserves better, and I think Movies Should Always Be Good. They cost a lot of money, and when they suck, it's a waste of resources and a waste of everyone's time who worked on or watched them. And it's vulgar to waste time and it's vulgar to waste money. And it's not necessary; most movies are only Good or Bad because of the care involved in their crafting. Literally ALL you have to do is care sincerely about the results and not the money, and things will generally turn out alright. Start counting the money before you put pen to paper, you're gonna turn out a piece of sh*t, every time. It's something you notice after a while when you really pay attention to this sh*t.

Meanwhile, it's a good brand (or was) that deserves a lot more than it's been given recently. And it's not gonna improve because Nick Doesn't Get It. They only bought the property so they could make it stupid and give kids something to drool over in between Spongebob. It ought to be worth more than that. Never, ever again, though. "You shouldn't care so much." Well, I do. Boo-hoo. I can't help but die a little bit inside when I see things that once had at least a little bit of genuine integrity in their DNA become just another jetski payment for some suit.

Expecting people to Always Aim High and giving them sh*t for not trying isn't a crime. It's what most people should be doing. Nobody has any standards anymore, and it's quite frankly because people aren't anywhere near as judgmental as they should be. People who haven't earned the benefit of the doubt don't deserve it. Simple as that.

I get the point you're trying to make about the other stuff, really. I will say, though, that the way you can tell "The Hangover" and "Joker" were made by the same guy, is that neither one is anywhere near as good or as clever as they each want you to think. So that's the one bit of consistency between them.

Anyway. Stop implying, be it subtly or otherwise, I have an attitude problem for telling the truth. Rather, a lot of other people should just admit this brand is being run into the ground and start fighting back instead of saying "Eh, I'll wait and see." No. Don't wait and see. The "Sausage Party" guy is running the ship for the next movie, for f*ck's sake. That's a red flag with skulls and crossbones on it, but people are acting like it's a life raft. Stop it. Y'all ain't gonna be happy until TMNT is literally f*cking Barney or some sh*t, with how it keeps getting dumber and you people keep passively going along with it. And you're gonna cry and wonder how it got like that. And I'll laugh and say I f*ckin' warned ya. If you're all perfectly fine with Less Than Mediocre out of something you used to love, something that used to be Good, then I can't help ya. But I'm not the one with the incorrect attitude.

I might be a pessimist. There's nothing wrong with that. Optimism Kills. But sure, I'm a pessimist, and proudly so. At least I'm not bleeding from the ass, which is more than most TMNT fans can say. I can spot sh*t from a mile away, which is why I can sit just fine. Don't ask me to apologize for speaking Impolite and Inconvenient Truths. I ain't here to make friends, I'm here to set people straight. Somebody gotta do it.

[IndigoErth]

I hope they go with designs that are more like the Injustice game ones, but less identical. Not too different from each other, but enough variation that you could tell them apart sans gear. To the degree that you could tell who is who if looking at a black and white head shot of the 1990/91 movie Turtles.

Maybe I'm in a minority, I dunno, but never been fond of the 2007 designs. Have always found the design style of the characters (Turtle, human, and otherwise) kind of bland; don't really like the proportions of the Turtles, the head shape, or how the mask sits. I'd rather they avoided anything too stylized in an attempt to be "new." Nor trying to do a total copy of the original films (that's sacred ground there lol)... but the Injustice Turtles are a nice in between.

And please don't reuse or mimic the 2012 FW crossover 3D designs...

[PizzaPower1985]

Based on these posts, is it fair to say that MOST OF US here want a less cartoon influenced TMNT project, whether it be a full film, mini-series, new tv show etc.????

How adult is YOUR vision compared to what the brand usually offers?

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

I hope they go with designs that are more like the Injustice game ones, but less identical. Not too different from each other, but enough variation that you could tell them apart sans gear. To the degree that you could tell who is who if looking at a black and white head shot of the 1990/91 movie Turtles.

Maybe I'm in a minority, I dunno, but never been fond of the 2007 designs. Have always found the design style of the characters (Turtle, human, and otherwise) kind of bland; don't really like the proportions of the Turtles, the head shape, or how the mask sits. I'd rather they avoided anything too stylized in an attempt to be "new." Nor trying to do a total copy of the original films (that's sacred ground there lol)... but the Injustice Turtles are a nice in between.

And please don't reuse or mimic the 2012 FW crossover 3D designs...

I do love me some Injustice TMNT.
--------------

As for what I'd do if I were booking it? I've said it before: 1990 movie all the way. Obviously technology is better now and people are less pussified about "violence" in movies kids might watch. Even those MCU live-action cartoons have fight scenes in 'em and nobody cries about The Children.

Something done in the exact same aesthetic as the first film with a similar tone, just with the advantages of modern technology. Guys in suits, CGI to the absolute minimum. They never, EVER should have deviated from that in the first place. We should be on our fifth or sixth "true" sequel to The Only Good TMNT Movie by now, not the fourth or fifth reboot project. They've gotta be drooling morons, over there, making such simple sh*t complicated for no reason.

When you've made ONE good movie out of six, don't keep trying to reinvent the wheel or build a better mousetrap. Just go back to what worked, pay attention to WHY it worked, and the rest takes care of itself.

[newfan]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Maybe I'm in a minority, I dunno, but never been fond of the 2007 designs.
.

In the minority with you there, well, I didn't dislike their over all design, but their faces weren't my favourite. wouldn't be the end of the world though if the movie was decent and they looked like that I guess, could be worse. Can't remember if they had the flatter shells or not, I prefer those to very bulky shells, not a design deal breaker, just a preference. Obviously that's a minor thing to concern about over all

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

I hope they go with designs that are more like the Injustice game ones, but less identical. Not too different from each other, but enough variation that you could tell them apart sans gear. To the degree that you could tell who is who if looking at a black and white head shot of the 1990/91 movie Turtles.

Maybe I'm in a minority, I dunno, but never been fond of the 2007 designs. Have always found the design style of the characters (Turtle, human, and otherwise) kind of bland; don't really like the proportions of the Turtles, the head shape, or how the mask sits. I'd rather they avoided anything too stylized in an attempt to be "new." Nor trying to do a total copy of the original films (that's sacred ground there lol)... but the Injustice Turtles are a nice in between.

And please don't reuse or mimic the 2012 FW crossover 3D designs...

I NEVER liked that either. The entire look of that movie was like a Pixar version of TMNT. It made it feel like it was a kids film. Not good at all. The story wasnt that great either. Plus, having grown up in the 90s I heard A LOT of familiar cartoon voices from kids shows back then voicing minor characters. Jim Cummings anyone? Yeah, that movie stunk. Still, not nearly as bad as the abortion that was PD.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by newfan

Can't remember if they had the flatter shells or not, I prefer those to very bulky shells, not a design deal breaker, just a preference.

Yeah, I think they were moderately flatter? Definitely agree on keeping the shells a bit flatter like that of red-eared sliders, not so bulky. The 2012 series seems to be one of the only ones to have gotten that right.