Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Vol. 4 #22

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Buslady

Leo going off to investigate those weirdo fighters..

How is that bad? It's entrenched in the mythology of The Foot, and is the cloesest to fan expectations of the original comics

You're saying the exact same thing over and over again, it's not as if anybody cares anymore. Read TALES and be done with this volume if you despise it, otherwise, it's more than obvious Laird bashers are going to keep this up purly to grab attention and hijack threads.

[twopinacoladas]

I have been liking the storys for Leo, Mike and Don... Raphs was a little weird but its all good as long as he gets to turn back to a regular mutant turtle. I would like to see a nice fight with Raph and his new weapon or modified sais...

Aprils is the only thing that bothers me, I can live with it and would prefer her to be just a regular human character but Laird does have 100% creative control so I will just buy them and if I dont quite like it I will try to leave that out of my tmnt continuity... although its kind of hard its like oh she has not a real person in the story but I guess it would have to be fate for all this to happen I mean a woman drawn to life that meets 4 giant turtles.....

[Jester]

I think all the April griping is kinda reminisant of when the Toon Shredder was revealed to be a Utrom....We all hated it....then we warmed up to the idea....I think over time, we'll come to tolerate the idea that April is a figment of her parent's imagination and kirby's crystal....

[Raphael29]

Hey Leo656

Just read it and I agree that it is terrible. Went to the comic store for the first time in 5 years! the other day (I need to get out more). Picked it up the other day to see what everyone is talking about,won't be buying anymore of volume 4, might start buying tales seeing as how I picked one of those up the other day too and it was pretty good, but vol. 4 #22 was the worst comic I've ever read. If this is the direction Laird is taking volume 4 he should stop now, before it gets any worse. Look I'm a diehard TMNT fan don't get me wrong, but I won't give Laird my hardearned cash for garbage.

[ZariusTwo]

Jester's right, people were actually praising this idea up until Leo, a respected forum "veteren" came in and derided it, all of a sudden, HIS word is f*cking law, and everybody jumps on the boring Laird bashing bandwagon, making sure the negatives were heard more than the positives...hmm...COINCIDENCE?

Get your own mind for once. Yeesh.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Read TALES and be done with this volume if you despise it.

[Raphael29]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Jester's right, people were actually praising this idea up until Leo, a respected forum "veteren" came in and derided it, all of a sudden, HIS word is f*cking law, and everybody jumps on the boring Laird bashing bandwagon, making sure the negatives were heard more than the positives...hmm...COINCIDENCE?

Get your own mind for once. Yeesh.

That's not why I bashed it at all, I didn't want to believe what I was reading, and I finally decided to buy vol 4 #22 to convince myself that it surely couldn't be as bad as all the stuff I was reading on the boards, and went into it with an open mind but guess what Leo was right, its bad, real bad, and that's why I don't like it not because Leo doesn't, but becaue it's just a horrible comic.

[R-iZZy]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

...Depends. I loved his line about republicans and serial killers , naturally, I would'nt risk alienating customers by going to that level, but I'm not above telling someone to shut up if they criticise me without a constructive opinion, sometimes I see more cases of this than most.

True, I can agree that anyone who takes the time to badmouth the story without actually explaining their reasons do deserve a bashing. But I've seen some who just write him not to bash, but to just say they don't like the direction, and they still get called "moronic". I don't see why people should be forced to say they don't like it. If I have a kid who doesn't like a specific dish I prepare for him, I'm not going to bash him for not liking what I've created for him, I'll acknowledge the fact that he doesn't like it and respect his opinion. Respecting others' opinions is something Laird seems to lack.

That's fine, sometimes Laird bashers themselves get too emotional in deriding someone they dislike, (take Bus Ladys' post for example) or disapprove of, (and thank god Leo had to apologise in advance before accusing people like me of taking "crack")

I stand by the opinion that Laird bashers fear change, and so far, with the outcry for a dedicated reasherip of TALES, or "simpler times", this has yet to be proven wrong.

Wait, so I'm a "Laird basher" because I've made observations, put two-and-two together, and stated what I could figure of the guy from the many traits he seems to showcase in his Turtle Tracks? I don't think that makes me a Laird basher; perhaps it's you who's just riding his coat tails. I don't "fear change", as you put it, I just don't like one story... and that was April's origin. I happen to like Leo's, Mike's, and Don's a lot (I'm not too fond of Raph being this Gamera clone, but I'm going with it because it's just starting out). I've given April's story a chance, awaited long, and just didn't like the results. That's not a "fear of change", that's just a disliking for a story. But I guess because the one who co-created our beloved turtles made it, I have to bow on my knees, throw away my individual opinion, and conform to his beliefs that the story is good? I may be a turtle maniac, but I'm an individual first.

Sue me for getting tired of the same old, same old around here. This board has had a problem with Laird for years ever since he attacked members for disapproving of Lawsons' work, no matter what he does, people here are going to complain. Regardless. To this comic forums, he's satan, and can't do any right, not an insult, just an observation.

Well, if that's the case, you really shouldn't be offended by it... that's Laird's problem, not yours. Why you feel this need to stick up for the guy for everything he does is beyond me, but he really couldn't care less what you, me, or any other person does... as long as he's executing his ideas, he's going to continue doing what he does. The guy isn't Satan, he isn't a dark figure; he's just immature and stubborn. Hell, I thank him for co-creating the greatest team to ever exist, and we've praised the guy through buying his merchandise and making him rich, but we also have dislikes that we can state and this is one of the few places that you actually have the liberty to do so.

I'm sorry that us not appreciating Laird as much as you think we should offends you, but others shouldn't be patronized for not sharing the same views as you. We just don't happen to like Laird's attitude, and I guarantee you that if I found that trait on someone else, I would give that person the same personal criticism that I'm giving Laird. I'm not influenced by anything, I just happen to observe, analyze, and conclude.

[Aska_Badoura]

Spoilers ahead after this paragraph, if you still don't know what's going on in the comics.

I've never been very impressed with Peter Laird's lack of respect for others. I hate to climb up on my 'Venus' soapbox, but it's a good example. Peter's 'eradicate-any-and-all-things-that-have-any-mention-of-her', 'bring her back over my dead body' approach is billigerent. Okay, so someone took TMNT in a direction he didn't like. There's no need to overreact. It shows disrespect to the creativity (however questionable) of whoever introduced the idea in the first place. No, I don't want to see him forced to deal with a character he hates. It's this vehement rejection of (an)other creative mind's/' ideas that I object to, to the point that he'll actually try to undo what someone else did, rather than just leave it be as a terrible idea and move on. This has much less to do with how he conducts a storyline, or what characters he considers canon; it has much more to do with how he conducts himself toward others. And I don't want to incur your wrath, Zarius, as I am not attacking you, but making an observation: respect for others has never been your strong point, either. I think that's why you aren't seeing this conversation in the correct context.

Now, as for #22, I actually like the storyline very much on its own merit. I've always wanted an explanation as to where Kirby's gem came from (although I'd also like to know where Kirby got the idea to attach it to his pencil). Of course that answer only brings more questions (where did it really, really come from?), but it's interesting to delve into its past a bit. I also think it's really interesting that if it's used with ink (and the push of extreme emotion), it's permanent. That puts a spin on things, and makes me wonder if Kirby ever tried it with ink. I also wonder where he got the idea to draw up that portal, and why he apparently invested so much belief in it, to have it remain for so long. And then all the philosophical questions the story brings up are pretty interesting too: Is a concept of a human brought to life still human? Will April die, or will her body decay into dust like normal, leaving her essentially a ghost with no body? If she dies, will she appear in the crystal's dimension? As someone else said, does she have a soul? (Although that gets into uncomfortable territory for me; I'm a Christian, and I don't like fiction trying to meddle in areas that are sacred to me. Do what you like with living and dead characters in the physical world, but don't dictate to me what happens to them in the afterlife. Fortunately, they probably won't get into that, anyway). The concept of creating a child, investing one's love in it, only to have it vanish, is heartbreaking, touching, and thought-provoking. Sort of a 'be careful what you wish for' scenario. On the other hand, all this thinking brings up plot weaknesses, such as: because April actually aged, and didn't remain a baby forever, what's to say she can't have children like an ordinary woman? In all respects, she should be completely ordinary. If she wasn't, she would never have grown, and probably wouldn't even have any internal systems to be attacked by nanobots. Yes, you can come up with ways to explain the pregnancy issue, at least, (Um, she aged because her parents expected her to when she was drawn, but they didn't think through all the way to her adulthood and eventual child-bearing years herself. Or something. ) but it still bothers me.

Anyway, all that's fascinating, but I just wish it hadn't been April. I think it's a great story. I love the way it was told, in narrative with illustrations. I respect all the thought that was obviously put into the story. I could have lived without the 'life as a roach' ideas (they seem off-kilter with the rest of the story, really; it has the feeling of grabbing a secondary, unrelated storyline concept, and trying to blend it with this one), but it was thankfully only touched upon. But the fact that it's April: I just think it cuts loose one of the tethers that keeps the Turtles themselves in the 'normal' world, and it was one that they needed. Yes, life is certainly interesting with the public arrival of the Utroms, but having friends that are actually born and raised (both are important here ) as regular natives of earth is critical. They have very few ordinary, run-of-the-mill human friends anymore. They're mostly superheroes, former half-crazed-vigilantes, or, um... drawings. Shadow and Robyn (and I didn't see the comic where Robyn first appeared. I didn't think she knew the Turtles at all, and then I see her at Splinter's funeral..), and Casey (more or less), are the only 'ordinary' people left in the extended family.

On Jim Lawson: well... I definitely have mixed feelings. Granted, the extreme stylization he uses royally gets on my nerves. But it's not that he can't draw. Have you really looked at some of the animals he's drawn? I was struck by his drawings of a pond turtle in the first scene with the Turtles, from #11 (which I've just read, so it's on the brain at the moment); it's beautiful! Just the right thickness of limbs, the way the carapace tapers to a ridge like that, webbed toes, attention to its tiny beak and eyes, the wrinkles in the skin. But then there's the first panel of the second page, where Mike swims by it and touches it. This gorgeous, realistic turtle, right next to his usual bizarre, grotesquely-designed mutant Turtle with the impossibly thin wrists and a face drawn like a child's attempt at a TMNT (although very nicely inked by Eric Talbot, thank you). It's so completely incongruous! And in other issues, too, the way I think of it: he occasionally slips and does a well-proportioned, nicely-rendered drawing, when he forgets that he's supposed to be annoying you. The fish, the lobsters, even the roaches. His renderings of the raptor-like creatures in the jungle, and Raph's frightening new (hopefully temporary) appearance, are both quite convincing. The scenes in the woods, and the brief glimpse of Leatherhead in #11, all attest to an artist with a lot of skill! He merely chooses to render his characters in a purposefully grotesque style. I don't know why he does it, it drives me crazy! But you shouldn't say he can't draw. It's more that he chooses to be non-traditional. I guess for the purpose of having a unique 'style', at the expense of what the general public would call pleasing art.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Ninja Turtle Nincompoop

I don't "fear change", as you put it, I just don't like one story... and that was April's origin. I happen to like Leo's, Mike's, and Don's a lot (I'm not too fond of Raph being this Gamera clone, but I'm going with it because it's just starting out). I've given April's story a chance, awaited long, and just didn't like the results. That's not a "fear of change", that's just a disliking for a story.

I'm generalising, you don't fear change? That's fine, You're a minority in that regard, I'm talking about the other bashers who base thier negativity on that exact premise.

Well, if that's the case, you really shouldn't be offended by it... that's Laird's problem, not yours.

Actually, it very much is.

As a fan of his work on the comics at this present time, I can't come into these threads, on this forum specifically, without reading the posts conceived by the hijackers that just happen to quell everybody elses'. I usually stay out of the conversation. I don't bothee, whilst those with something different to say, something more constructive to say are just shut out, either afraid of bringing up a defense without insitgating larger wars, or because there above insulting Laird, and because they'd rather enjoy the comic in silence than praise it in public because a bunch of nerds don't like it when they blow thier hard earned money on something they dislike, and have been known to dislike for some time, without hesitation. Screw fandom, buying merchandise for the sake of franchise support like that despite dispising it so badly is just stupid.

Why you feel this need to stick up for the guy for everything he does is beyond me

I don't like Mikeys' storyline, proving I don't stick up for "everything", I just happen to agree with most of what he says, and writes, and am not anal about the decisions he makes.

as long as he's executing his ideas, he's going to continue doing what he does. The guy isn't Satan, he isn't a dark figure; he's just immature and stubborn.

Something thats' taken way too close to heart around here, so someone said he did'nt like what others thought of Lawson, or him, it does'nt affect thier opinion, it's still thiers to have, if hes' been known to have a track record of this, ignore it, read the comic (or read others), and only that, and leave Laird's comments to those who actually are'nt that anal about them

I understand where you're coming from, I understand Laird's nature, but the current Technodrome "crusade" against him is becoming the very animal: Immature, and stubborn

I'm sorry that us not appreciating Laird as much as you think we should offends you

It's not that, it's the fact they hijack every thread and say everything and nothing all at the same time, it's alwayts "this suxkz, wahhh", and drown out anyone who might say something differently, with constructive opinions. You may be objective, but trust me, around here, you are a rarity.

Originally Posted by Aska_Badoura

And I don't want to incur your wrath, Zarius, as I am not attacking you, but making an observation: respect for others has never been your strong point, either. I think that's why you aren't seeing this conversation in the correct context.

Heh, heh, don't worry Aska, no beef, I'm making observations myself in a way, that indeed, when the thread started, there were no problems, then people remembered this forum is supposed to hate Volume Four and started up again.

Originally Posted by Raphael29

That's not why I bashed it at all, I didn't want to believe what I was reading, and I finally decided to buy vol 4 #22 to convince myself that it surely couldn't be as bad as all the stuff I was reading on the boards, and went into it with an open mind but guess what Leo was right.

Guess what? Leo's never approved much of Volume Four, and it's also your opinion. Noone is "wrong" when it comes down to that.

What I'm asking for most of these people to do is follow examples set by Nicompoop and Aska, you want to discuss, DISCUSS. Don't deride. Discuss the postives, the negatives, because they don't come without the other.

[Jester]

Ok...Time to chime in...I kinda like volume 4....I wanna know what's gonna happen to Mikey, the build up I didn't like, but now that he's captured, lets see where it goes. I wish they'd continue Leo's story...they kinda left it un-finished...maybe raphie and Leo's stories will mesh. Donnie's story may be a bit to long and o-going...fnish it up. It may run a ltiile slow, but such is life, there are lulls in between action...No onto this April story line...I haven't read it....cause I can't find TMNT comics (vol 4 or "tales") here....But from what i hear...It's a facinating origin, but I gotta agree, it akes one of the "real" elements outta the TMNT. April was the linch pinthat held the turtles to reality...she was their link to the human world...maybe since the world is more lenient to the TMNT they don't need April as a grounding normal character, and we can expand on her character....who knows. All I know is if you don't like how the story is going, stop buying it....stick the the action packed tales...and leave Vol 4 to Zarius....

[BigApple3AM]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

I don't like Mikeys' storyline, proving I don't stick up for "everything", I just happen to agree with most of what he says, and writes, and am not anal about the decisions he makes.

But maybe Mikey got anal.... I mean...uh.....

[Leo656]

Whew, guess it's a good thing I can only get on here once every few weeks, eh?

K, while I honestly have no problem with someone finding some merit in this April story, I do have a small problem with being lumped in with a bunch of people as a "Laird basher" and accused of "fearing change", etc. etc. I know a lot of what's been said by Zarius and others is general statements not meant to apply to every single person, but whenever anyone makes assumptions towards my overall character based on a few select issues, whether its intended or not (and I know that it isn't), well, I just gotta respond.

First of all, I can't help it if by being the first to speak out against the issue I helped other, more "closeted" dissenters find their voice and inner critic. Sometimes people are afraid to be the first to criticize because they fear rebuttal from others who disagree, other times they can't find the words to express what they feel, so they wait until someone else comes along and says it for them. It definitely doesn't make their opinions any less valid just because they weren't the first to say anything, nor does it make them "bandwagon-jumpers". After all, "people need dramatic examples to shake them out of apathy", and I guess a 17-page diatribe by some foul-mouthed, beer-swilling Jersey wacko is about as dramatic as we can hope for, eh?

Furthermore, there *is* a reason why I am, quote, "a respected veteran member of the forums". It's because I'm intelligent, witty, articulate, well-groomed, pleasant-smelling, a snappy dresser, ruggedly handsome, and make a pretty damn good waffle. Not to mention, I'm incredibly modest. Personally, I'm often amazed by the impact some of the things I say do seem to have, considering that when I got here a few years back me and Alison Chains were like the most hated people on the forums for doing exactly the same things that made us so "respected" - namely, being loudmouthed and obnoxious, throwing our opinions at people whether they wanted them or not, verbally smacking people around for acting stupid, going out of our way to trick annoying people into getting themselves banned, and coming up with hysterical and increasingly huge sig pics. Funny how things work out.

That said, it's not exactly fair to lump me in with a group of "Laird-bashers". I take that to mean that a person criticizes Laird no matter what he does, without any rational reason or attempt to see the other side, and anyone that reads what I say knows that isn't me. Do I think Vol. 4 could be better? Heck yeah I do. Do I hate this April storyline in particular? Oh gods yes. Do I think his attitude towards the fans is friggin' horrible? Better believe it. But it ain't personal. It ain't like the guy's the Anti-Christ, or that nothing good has ever come outta him creatively speaking, but the fact remains that he creates his own critics by doing stuff the fans don't like and then calling them morons if they disagree. It's uncalled for. There's no reason he can't actually address people's complaints like a professional instead of acting like a "spoiled brat", as us "Laird bashers" have been called. There's no need for name-calling or talking down to people, especially when those people make you rich.

Another thing I resent is being lumped in with the "people who fear change", because again, that isn't what I'm about. The key is realizing that there's a difference in comics between "storytelling evolution", which is good, and "throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks", which is bad.

Stuff in the former category, aka "stuff I liked": Superman executing the Phantom Zone Villains during John Byrne's run, Hal Jordan going nuts and becoming Parallax, Kyle Rayner becoming Green Lantern, Azrael becoming Batman temporarily before Bruce Wayne returned to his place as the one and only Batman, Jason Todd's death and Tim Drake's assumption of the Robin mantle, Superman's death and rebirth resulting in the "Reign of the Supermen" and four new ongoing characters in the Superman mythos, Lex Luthor's descent from United States President and respected billionaire to armor-wearing super-villain, Dick Grayson becoming Nightwing, Terra betraying the Teen Titans to Deathstroke, Hal Jordan's return as Green Lantern (which I was at one point dead-set *against*), Guy Gardner's "Sinestro ring" phase, and the revelation of the JLA's "mind-wiping" of Dr. Light, Batman, and others. All of these storyline events progressed organically out of a series of events in other stories, had long-lasting repercussions on the characters involved, made sense in a historical context, and presented long-lasting or permanent change without insulting the reader or asking them to take a huge leap of logical faith. Even the two most controversial, Az-Bats and Jordan becoming Parallax, made perfect sense from a storyline standpoint and now, in a historical context, are "classic" stories for their respective characters.

Now, stuff from the latter category, aka "stuff comic fans collectively shat upon": Guy Gardner "Warrior", Daredevil's armor costume, Captain America's energy shield, the Spider-Clone, and the worst offense of all, "Electric Blue Superman/Superman Red-Superman Blue". These atrocities were supposed to "shake things up" and breathe new life into their respective characters, but instead they got the "Beavis response" from fans: "This sucks! Change it!" I mean you could just tell as you read them that the writers were just throwing crap out there in hopes of doing something big, and instead they caused almost irreperable damage. Some say Spidey *still* hasn't recovered completely from the Clone nightmare.

Now think long and hard, Turtle fans, and ask yourselves: In ten years, is this April story gonna be in Column A, or Column B? When we look back and talk about our all-time favorite TMNT stories, are we gonna say "I especially loved the story where April went back in time, got boinked by cockroaches and found out she's just a drawing her Dad did"? Are we ever going to say it's honestly of the same calibre as "City At War" or the first few issues of Vol. 1? Somehow, I just really, really doubt it. It's the exact same thing as when DC turned Guy Gardner into "Warrior": It makes little to no sense in a historical context without a huge leap of faith, it's never even been hinted at before and therefore seems entirely tacked-on, it took an established and well-liked character and drastically altered them for no substantial reason, and it leaves a large portion of said character's fanbase scratching their heads and saying "I don't see the point, I liked it better before they changed it". Change is good, necessary even. My above examples prove that, despite the oft-repeated criticism to the contrary, lasting change *is* possible in comics, and can be done very well in many cases... if done *well*. And this one isn't.

Even the changes in Vol. 3 seemed more organic and natural than this. I didn't like those either, but it did seem in many ways like an extension of things rather than a complete and pointless ret-con, like this one feels. Someone mentioned that they'd like the story better if it dealt with someone besides April, and upon really thinking about it I agree. The storyline is a bad one, but it would be slightly less bad if it wasn't raping (no cockroach pun intended) one of the longest-lasting and most beloved characters in the TMNT mythos. No, April isn't some untouchable sacred cow who can't be messed with occasionally, but there are better ways to expand her character than this. Hell, if I wanted crap like that, I'd go buy a stack of Marvel books. Kidding, kidding... you should all read "Supreme Power", it's really quite nifty.

So, if me and my arguments still qualify me as a blind, stick-carrying "Laird basher", does that equally qualify Zarius and his ilk as blindly devoted "Laird Worshipers"? Because I don't think that having an educated opinion (for either side), being able to state that opinion coherently, establishing criteria explaining said opinion, and doing so while being dead sexy at the same time is enough to lump any individual in with a group. Not everyone who disagrees with Laird is a "basher", they just think certain things he's doing are bad and they wish we as fans had more of a voice to express our feelings without being called childish names. That's all it is. And Zarius, nothing personal, but the way you're categorizing everyone as one or the other isn't very fair. The "love it or leave it" attitude towards Laird and Vol. 4 does nothing but enforce the view of people like myself who feel like Laird could give a rat's ass about his fans and what we want, and what we want isn't some drastic, unthinkable change, we just want TMNT stories that more accurately reflect the tone we're used to.

I mean, c'mon, if Laird wrote an in-canon storyline where Donnie "mutated" into a talking Matchbox car, Raphael and Casey openly declared their love for each other's mangina while dressed like Britney Spears backup dancers, Mikey became the host of a "Barney"-style kids' show and began hugging everyone in sight, Leo started carrying a set of huge guns a'la The Punisher and insisted on calling himself "Captain Kills-A-Lot", and Shredder came back to life as a serial-killing circus midget who rode a unicycle and spoke only in Mr. T quotes while assaulting the Turtles with nuclear-powered pancake batter, would you STILL like it? Would you still stick up for Laird even in the face of such blatant stupidity? Would you still defend the storyline no matter what anyone else thought?

If so, congratulations... YOU'RE ON CRACK!!!

By the way, sorry 'bout that one, seeing as how you apparently took it so personal. No hard feelings, bro.

[Space Lieutenant Josh]

Personally, I have my problems with the story, but overall, I felt it was decent because of the fact that it was the closest thing Vol. 4 has had so far to an all-inclusive story in one issue. I mean, when I think of my favorite TMNT stories, I think of stuff like "Raphael #1," or the one with the Justice Force, or the one with the terrorists in Massachusetts, the brass cow, and then the bigger, but still planned out and eventually concluded stories, like Return to New York, City at War, and my personal favorite, the entire arc that takes them away from New York to Massachusetts.

Still, to be honest, it's kinda like I've been deceived all these years. Y'know, just to remember great moments between the TMNT and April, like when Leo uses the remainder of his strength to knock a bookshelf on some Foot ninja to save her during the Foot's attack on her apartment, or when he saves her from drowning in the ice pond, or when one of them tells her, "No one will ever hurt you as long as we're alive," I kinda just feel that, since she's been just an ink drawing (not just in this reality but in theirs as well), it's all kinda cheapened. Overall, I guess I wish Mr. Laird really hadn't done this to her.

Still, I have to go back to what I was saying originally-- I loved the all-inclusive stories, and that's what Vol. 4 is sorely lacking in. I realize this series is supposed to move more like life, and that life isn't so episodic... but then, life isn't really this slow, either.

Tales is still excellent, partly in nature to its being episodic. Actually, I remember in the letters column of #22, someone wrote in and mentioned Bone, which is completely wonderful throughout. He compared Bone's huge, 13-year-long storyline to TMNT Vol. 4, but mentioned that each story in Bone was a story in its own right-- it moved like an idyllic novel, in episodes (Peter seemed to ignore the comparison). The same applies to Don Quixote and Huckleberry Finn, and due to this much more controlled variety of storytelling, the points come across better and there are fewer loose ends (i.e. Super Turtles, Karai's book, the armored car with the dead disco guys, the Madhattan Maulitia's war on aliens, the Justice Force, Shadow's boyfriend, etc.). I mean, can you imagine how long it's gonna take to clean up that mess? It seems like unless Mr. Laird knows what he is going to do, down to the letter, it's going to be hard to have a story drag on for 20-odd issues and still be able to have a real narrative structure.

I'm a big Turtles fan and a big Peter Laird fan (his solo stories in Volume 1 were among the best ever) but I'm not a huge fan of the way the story is headed, raising more and more questions about everything. Therefore, I'm not a "Laird-basher" and don't want to be labeled as such.

Ever do something creative, something you really enjoy and that other people enjoy? It turns out to be something really wonderful, but no matter how hard you try, you can't duplicate it. You overthink it the second time, constantly trying to bring the success of the original back. You try to revisit your past, end up bringing too much back from the past, and make it difficult to retain a solid new identity. I think maybe that's happened with Peter... he's not having quite as much fun with it now as he did when he wrote whacked-out, just-plain-fun stories about the Justice Force and those crazy nuclear terrorists.

I'm eager to see where this story goes for the time being, especially since it's too late to pull out anyway, and I hope a few questions regarding April's living state(She's able to think, learn and grow, she has emotions and she can feel things like love, fear, hate, etc.-- doesn't this make her a human being?) will be answered.

Also, here's hoping she doesn't just poof out of existence.

[ZariusTwo]

Here's the odd thing though, the criticisms expressed by you have been a stabelmate of the forum opinion towards Laird for years now, if anything, the positive reviewers were the UNDERDOGS, just as much as you decided to be the first to enforce the "status quoe", I was the one to say "xcrew that, let's see what happens when a dedicated reader stands against the disgruntled readers for once. Taste of thier own medicine"

The "crack" comment actually DID'NT offend me as much as you think it did, I loved it actually. I just used as an example of what may later be reflected by others who...you know...don't intend it in good humour.

I would'nt say I'm "blind", but I've got very little reason not to be devoted, I like most of the current arc barring Mikeys, and have seen so many currently s*it comic events like "Identity Crisis", "Infinity Criss", and the recent rubbish "House of M", that Aprils' origin is a welcome source of relief, it's not as bad as any of them. Far from it, it's gloriously poignant.

On the subject of "basterdised origins", you did'nt include the fact Peter Parker getting bitten by a radioactive spider was'nt an "accident" under J.M.S' run...or other major changes such as Aunt May discovering Petes' identity, something that reinvigorated her in the comics and gave her something new. Is it true to the mythos that she should never know? Do we ignore that? Or do we accept this change as a positive, and see what new developments can come from it? For good or for worse, we need a challenging road to take, not the same dang one.

Bottom line I suppose is that, if you think Aprils' origin will fall under Coullum B of which comic moments suck and which don't, then it undoubtedly will remain that way. Noone can change that, what they CAN change however, is thier attempts to deride him, OR Lawson, every chance they can in comics forums threads.

[BigApple3AM]

Yeah but we were getting sick of the old "oh know aunt may's opening the door I'd better change out of my spidey costume before it's too late!" That was kind of getting annoying. Her finding out was pretty cool (to me at least), but that's different. When the whole freaking marvel u. found out and spidey joined new avengers that's where I quit.

Besides I don't think anyone was hoping for apirl to turn out to be an ink blot.

[ZariusTwo]

Marvel are'nt exactly boring me, but the sooner this Avengers s*it (all of Marvels' shake ups have just RUINED that group instead of reinvergorating it) ends, the more we can see of Spidy being what he always should be: A loner, him, M.J, and May, against the world.

[Raphael29]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Whew, guess it's a good thing I can only get on here once every few weeks, eh?

First of all, I can't help it if by being the first to speak out against the issue I helped other, more "closeted" dissenters find their voice and inner critic. Sometimes people are afraid to be the first to criticize because they fear rebuttal from others who disagree, other times they can't find the words to express what they feel, so they wait until someone else comes along and says it for them. It definitely doesn't make their opinions any less valid just because they weren't the first to say anything, nor does it make them "bandwagon-jumpers". After all, "people need dramatic examples to shake them out of apathy", and I guess a 17-page diatribe by some foul-mouthed, beer-swilling Jersey wacko is about as dramatic as we can hope for, eh?

Furthermore, there *is* a reason why I am, quote, "a respected veteran member of the forums". It's because I'm intelligent, witty, articulate, well-groomed, pleasant-smelling, a snappy dresser, ruggedly handsome, and make a pretty damn good waffle. Not to mention, I'm incredibly modest. Personally, I'm often amazed by the impact some of the things I say do seem to have, considering that when I got here a few years back me and Alison Chains were like the most hated people on the forums for doing exactly the same things that made us so "respected" - namely, being loudmouthed and obnoxious, throwing our opinions at people whether they wanted them or not, verbally smacking people around for acting stupid, going out of our way to trick annoying people into getting themselves banned, and coming up with hysterical and increasingly huge sig pics. Funny how things work out.

That said, it's not exactly fair to lump me in with a group of "Laird-bashers". I take that to mean that a person criticizes Laird no matter what he does, without any rational reason or attempt to see the other side, and anyone that reads what I say knows that isn't me. Do I think Vol. 4 could be better? Heck yeah I do. Do I hate this April storyline in particular? Oh gods yes. Do I think his attitude towards the fans is friggin' horrible? Better believe it. But it ain't personal. It ain't like the guy's the Anti-Christ, or that nothing good has ever come outta him creatively speaking, but the fact remains that he creates his own critics by doing stuff the fans don't like and then calling them morons if they disagree. It's uncalled for. There's no reason he can't actually address people's complaints like a professional instead of acting like a "spoiled brat", as us "Laird bashers" have been called. There's no need for name-calling or talking down to people, especially when those people make you rich.

Another thing I resent is being lumped in with the "people who fear change", because again, that isn't what I'm about. The key is realizing that there's a difference in comics between "storytelling evolution", which is good, and "throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks", which is bad.

Stuff in the former category, aka "stuff I liked": Superman executing the Phantom Zone Villains during John Byrne's run, Hal Jordan going nuts and becoming Parallax, Kyle Rayner becoming Green Lantern, Azrael becoming Batman temporarily before Bruce Wayne returned to his place as the one and only Batman, Jason Todd's death and Tim Drake's assumption of the Robin mantle, Superman's death and rebirth resulting in the "Reign of the Supermen" and four new ongoing characters in the Superman mythos, Lex Luthor's descent from United States President and respected billionaire to armor-wearing super-villain, Dick Grayson becoming Nightwing, Terra betraying the Teen Titans to Deathstroke, Hal Jordan's return as Green Lantern (which I was at one point dead-set *against*), Guy Gardner's "Sinestro ring" phase, and the revelation of the JLA's "mind-wiping" of Dr. Light, Batman, and others. All of these storyline events progressed organically out of a series of events in other stories, had long-lasting repercussions on the characters involved, made sense in a historical context, and presented long-lasting or permanent change without insulting the reader or asking them to take a huge leap of logical faith. Even the two most controversial, Az-Bats and Jordan becoming Parallax, made perfect sense from a storyline standpoint and now, in a historical context, are "classic" stories for their respective characters.

Now, stuff from the latter category, aka "stuff comic fans collectively shat upon": Guy Gardner "Warrior", Daredevil's armor costume, Captain America's energy shield, the Spider-Clone, and the worst offense of all, "Electric Blue Superman/Superman Red-Superman Blue". These atrocities were supposed to "shake things up" and breathe new life into their respective characters, but instead they got the "Beavis response" from fans: "This sucks! Change it!" I mean you could just tell as you read them that the writers were just throwing crap out there in hopes of doing something big, and instead they caused almost irreperable damage. Some say Spidey *still* hasn't recovered completely from the Clone nightmare.

Now think long and hard, Turtle fans, and ask yourselves: In ten years, is this April story gonna be in Column A, or Column B? When we look back and talk about our all-time favorite TMNT stories, are we gonna say "I especially loved the story where April went back in time, got boinked by cockroaches and found out she's just a drawing her Dad did"? Are we ever going to say it's honestly of the same calibre as "City At War" or the first few issues of Vol. 1? Somehow, I just really, really doubt it. It's the exact same thing as when DC turned Guy Gardner into "Warrior": It makes little to no sense in a historical context without a huge leap of faith, it's never even been hinted at before and therefore seems entirely tacked-on, it took an established and well-liked character and drastically altered them for no substantial reason, and it leaves a large portion of said character's fanbase scratching their heads and saying "I don't see the point, I liked it better before they changed it". Change is good, necessary even. My above examples prove that, despite the oft-repeated criticism to the contrary, lasting change *is* possible in comics, and can be done very well in many cases... if done *well*. And this one isn't.

Even the changes in Vol. 3 seemed more organic and natural than this. I didn't like those either, but it did seem in many ways like an extension of things rather than a complete and pointless ret-con, like this one feels. Someone mentioned that they'd like the story better if it dealt with someone besides April, and upon really thinking about it I agree. The storyline is a bad one, but it would be slightly less bad if it wasn't raping (no cockroach pun intended) one of the longest-lasting and most beloved characters in the TMNT mythos. No, April isn't some untouchable sacred cow who can't be messed with occasionally, but there are better ways to expand her character than this. Hell, if I wanted crap like that, I'd go buy a stack of Marvel books. Kidding, kidding... you should all read "Supreme Power", it's really quite nifty.

So, if me and my arguments still qualify me as a blind, stick-carrying "Laird basher", does that equally qualify Zarius and his ilk as blindly devoted "Laird Worshipers"? Because I don't think that having an educated opinion (for either side), being able to state that opinion coherently, establishing criteria explaining said opinion, and doing so while being dead sexy at the same time is enough to lump any individual in with a group. Not everyone who disagrees with Laird is a "basher", they just think certain things he's doing are bad and they wish we as fans had more of a voice to express our feelings without being called childish names. That's all it is. And Zarius, nothing personal, but the way you're categorizing everyone as one or the other isn't very fair. The "love it or leave it" attitude towards Laird and Vol. 4 does nothing but enforce the view of people like myself who feel like Laird could give a rat's ass about his fans and what we want, and what we want isn't some drastic, unthinkable change, we just want TMNT stories that more accurately reflect the tone we're used to.

I mean, c'mon, if Laird wrote an in-canon storyline where Donnie "mutated" into a talking Matchbox car, Raphael and Casey openly declared their love for each other's mangina while dressed like Britney Spears backup dancers, Mikey became the host of a "Barney"-style kids' show and began hugging everyone in sight, Leo started carrying a set of huge guns a'la The Punisher and insisted on calling himself "Captain Kills-A-Lot", and Shredder came back to life as a serial-killing circus midget who rode a unicycle and spoke only in Mr. T quotes while assaulting the Turtles with nuclear-powered pancake batter, would you STILL like it? Would you still stick up for Laird even in the face of such blatant stupidity? Would you still defend the storyline no matter what anyone else thought?

Completely agree, I don't hate Laird or anything I just don't like what he has done with TMNT and I don't believe in absolutes like Zarius likes to use, it isn't just a black and white issue there is gray in there too.

[Coola Yagami]

Ok... so April turned out to a drawing come to life...

2 questions-

How did she react to this? I'd probably have a nervous breakdown.

And was her sister Robyn a real human then?

and uhh.... April boinked by roaches???

[R-iZZy]

To the first question, I guess she was just stunned... at the end of issue 21, she was sitting in her car in shock and horror, crying, she was in disbelief.

To answer your second question, Robyn was, in fact, a human. Robyn's birth had disrupted her mother's reproductive organs, which had disabled Robyn's mother of ever bearing children. That was why Robyn's parents had created April out of the ink and the crystal, because there was no other way that Robyn's mother could bring another child in (since Robyn's father strongly disagreed to adopting a child).

And yes, April cheated on Casey, though technically, at the time she was screwing other roaches, she wasn't really married to Casey.

Anyway, that's how Volume 4 is going. And in my opinion, I would rather that Kevin Eastman were the sole runner of the TMNT franchise. I liked what he did with Image on the "Bodycount" mini-series. Eastman was more about action, and not weird and sloppy twists.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Ninja Turtle Nincompoop

To the first question, I guess she was just stunned... at the end of issue 21, she was sitting in her car in shock and horror, crying, she was in disbelief.

To answer your second question, Robyn was, in fact, a human. Robyn's birth had disrupted her mother's reproductive organs, which had disabled Robyn's mother of ever bearing children. That was why Robyn's parents had created April out of the ink and the crystal, because there was no other way that Robyn's mother could bring another child in (since Robyn's father strongly disagreed to adopting a child).

And yes, April cheated on Casey, though technically, at the time she was screwing other roaches, she wasn't really married to Casey.

Anyway, that's how Volume 4 is going. And in my opinion, I would rather that Kevin Eastman were the sole runner of the TMNT franchise. I liked what he did with Image on the "Bodycount" mini-series. Eastman was more about action, and not weird and sloppy twists.

I see. I'm glad the story didn't forget about Robyn. Now, uh... April... Roaches... why??? Or was it that Renet and April went back in time disguised as roaches so that they can see what was going on without being noticed?