Mirage Volume 4 - Number 32 Update - Page 7

*Andrew NDB* · 01-07-2013, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

PL was losing money out of his own pocket for every issue of Tales and Volume 4 he published.

Not true at all.

*Powder* · 01-07-2013, 11:26 PM

I never said it would have been rational/fair/etc, I merely expressed a desire.

*CyberCubed* · 01-07-2013, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Not true at all.

Which issues did he profit off of? I remember him saying this in the letters section of Volume 4 and on his blog, the series never turned a profit. I'm pretty sure its the same for Tales.

**Venom** · 01-08-2013, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

PL was losing money out of his own pocket for every issue of Tales and Volume 4 he published...

Now think of all the money PL lost dating all the way back to 2001 when Volume 4 started till 2009 when Tales ended. That's nearly a decade of losing money on over 100 comics.

Tax write-off.

I'd be curious to see how an official Mirage Indiegogo/Kickstarter-type project would fair (though it would get pretty expensive for us hardcores who would pitch in more for the extras). If nothing else, it would help foot the bill on printing a low quantity.

*Andrew NDB* · 01-08-2013, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Which issues did he profit off of? I remember him saying this in the letters section of Volume 4 and on his blog, the series never turned a profit. I'm pretty sure its the same for Tales.

From Dan Berger:

Vol. 4 made money for probably the first 4-5 issues. #1 sold around 18,000 when you factor in the second printing. But sales dropped off fast each book, so it was losing money pretty early on (and some of them lost a ton of money cuz Pete wrote so many pages. I didn't know he was gonna do that far enough ahead of time to solicit them with higher price tags. Diamond's four month lead time can be a real bitch to deal with).

I don't know how Tales sold in its early run since I wasn't involved with the managing aspect of it 'til it was selling like 2,500 copies. Factoring in page rates (as you gotta do), It was losing a buttload of cash every issue. Come to think of it, the take from 2,500 didn't even cover the printing bill. The collected Tales books were also losing money, which is why I nixed them (and the $1,000 per page ads in Previews) when I took over.

*CyberCubed* · 01-08-2013, 01:48 PM

So basically only 5 issues of everything Mirage put out since 2001 made money.

In other words about 28 issues of Volume 4, 70 issues of Tales, and those 16 TMNT spinoffs from Tales....all cost Mirage a fortune. And much of it came out of PL's pocket.

Its pretty obvious why Mirage is not putting out new issues now, even if Dan and Jim wanted to do it for example. He only did it as a safeguard to finish Volume 4 when he wants to.

*Oculus Orbus* · 01-08-2013, 01:49 PM

Thanks for that, Andrew.

You can argue that they were making lots of money with the franchise anyway, but publishing a book for so long despite the losses shows a lot of love for the media and the stories they were telling.

*Andrew NDB* · 01-08-2013, 01:52 PM

I'm fairly sure the first few Tales Vol. 2 did fairly well but I guess Murphy is the guy to ask on that.

*Andrew NDB* · 01-08-2013, 02:13 PM

Steve Murphy:

I know is that sales dropped considerably after the first several issues of both titles. I never knew the sales of vol. 4 but I think I'm correct when I say that the first issue of Tales vol. 2 sold around 23,000 copies and that it had leveled off to around 10,000 copies per issue by the time I stopped editing the book (whatever issue that was). I know what page rates were, roughly what print runs were (like I just said) but no longer remember what printing costs were or what advertising revenue was. My guess is that Tales vol. 2 made money for the first ten issues or so and that it most likely lost money thereafter.

*MikeandRaph87* · 01-08-2013, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Its pretty obvious why Mirage is not putting out new issues now, even if Dan and Jim wanted to do it for example. He only did it as a safeguard to finish Volume 4 when he wants to.

I asked Dan in email and Mike in person. They said they want to finish Forever War and told Peter they would be happy to finish volume 4 along with Jim Lawson as well,but Peter said "no" to passing off some of the rule of 18. One of the Mirage Dudes asked that at the meeting where he told them about the sale. Peter feels he would feel compelled to oversee it and does not want to be dragged into it even if the Mirage Dudes do it without him. Its unfortunate they can't act on their own with the rule of 18 but it is what it is.

*Andrew NDB* · 01-08-2013, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

I asked Dan in email and Mike in person. They said they want to finish Forever War and told Peter they would be happy to finish volume 4 along with Jim Lawson as well,but Peter said "no" to passing off some of the rule of 18. One of the Mirage Dudes asked that at the meeting where he told them about the sale. Peter feels he would feel compelled to oversee it and does not want to be dragged into it even if the Mirage Dudes do it without him. Its unfortunate they can't act on their own with the rule of 18 but it is what it is.

Peter actually can't publish "The Forever War" now even if he wanted to (and he doesn't), as the 18 comics a year clause only applies to Mirage TMNT.

*MikeandRaph87* · 01-08-2013, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Peter actually can't publish "The Forever War" now even if he wanted to (and he doesn't), as the 18 comics a year clause only applies to Mirage TMNT.

I thought it was any? Atleast that was what I picked up on from Peter's old blog and Mike specifically saying it to me back in June at a convention. He referred to that storyline and vol.4 completion.

There is always IDW. If not then kay sera sera.

*Andrew NDB* · 01-08-2013, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

I thought it was any? Atleast that was what I picked up on from Peter's old blog and Mike specifically saying it to me back in June at a convention.

Nope. Strictly Mirage TMNT. I was specifically told this was the reason Forever War was killed, because post-sale Mirage wouldn't be allowed to put it out, 18 clause or not.

It also came up with the Image TMNT conclusion. Even though Vol. 3 was initially part of the Mirage universe, because it was released through Image comics and its "which universe is it?" placing is murky my pitch never made it past Gary Richardson. Because the 18 comics a year thing is Mirage TMNT only.

*CyberCubed* · 01-08-2013, 03:37 PM

Well to be fair it is possibly IDW could publish the Forever War instead. Small possibility though.

*Andrew NDB* · 01-08-2013, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Well to be fair it is possibly IDW could publish the Forever War instead. Small possibility though.

Yes, and that's exactly what Steve is holding out for.

(holding out, meaning, not turning the scripts over to me/others as he earlier agreed to)

DK2 · 01-18-2013, 09:02 PM

Wow the numbers for Mirage losing out on their 2nd run of TMNT Publishing. I think Dan may be off on the numbers for Tales Vol. 2 though. No way its numbers were bigger than TMNT V4 numbers even in both series' debuts. If I'm not mistaken my memory is that TMNT Vol. 4 # 1-2 did like 12000 (18000 after 2nd print) and under. So Tales Vol.2 early issues had to be less than that. I like how he mentions the Tales TPB's were huge losses. I always wondered why Tales TMNT V2 got trades but not any TMNT V4 run? They made what like 10 trades during this publishing run (TMNT V1, Tales V1 + V2, Future Tense, Souls Winter, TMNT '07 movie prequels). To think all if not most didn't make money. I don't know much about book order and profit margins in the wholsale/direct markets. How does it work and how do they make money or break even? Can anyone explain? Especially through Diamond Dist? Dan also mentions how brutal it costed just to pay for ads in Previews. Diamond or the publishers also have a certain order amount/number to reach to remain solicited or its cancelled between the publishers themselves or by Diamond.

*Chris* · 01-19-2013, 03:58 PM

Wow, I knew the books were making a loss towards the end but I had no idea that they were losing money that early in their runs!

I have a lot of respect for Peter/Mirage. They truly were doing Vol. 4/Tales Vol. 2 for the fans.

*CyberCubed* · 01-19-2013, 04:24 PM

Or as PL would say, he was really writing Vol. 4 for himself. He was flat out telling people to stop reading it after a while.

*Chris* · 01-19-2013, 05:42 PM

True, but he didn't have to keep Tales going and he could have made Vol. 4 online only (saving a LOT of printing costs) much sooner than he did.

sorrenmj · 01-11-2022, 03:55 PM

I finally got me a copy of issue 32, it is on its way right now. This is the last issue I need to complete my volume 4 run. I can't wait to received this. It looks mint in the photograph! I wish I had known this was released in 2014. I did wait since 2009 but gave up after three or four years thinking for sure it was never gonna happen. Well I have a copy coming now!

01-07-2013, 11:26 PM	#122
Powder So tired of this place Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Shell Ri La Posts: 26,803	I never said it would have been rational/fair/etc, I merely expressed a desire. __________________ I'm convinced that none of you have ever experienced joy

01-08-2013, 01:52 PM	#128
Andrew NDB Weed Whacker Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Auburn, WA Posts: 29,251	I'm fairly sure the first few Tales Vol. 2 did fairly well but I guess Murphy is the guy to ask on that. __________________ [ ODYSSEY \| ORIGIN \| THE IMAGE/VOL. 3 CONCLUSION \| THE SHELLSHOCKED PODCAST \| ON FACEBOOK ]

01-08-2013, 02:13 PM	#129
Andrew NDB Weed Whacker Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Auburn, WA Posts: 29,251	Steve Murphy: I know is that sales dropped considerably after the first several issues of both titles. I never knew the sales of vol. 4 but I think I'm correct when I say that the first issue of Tales vol. 2 sold around 23,000 copies and that it had leveled off to around 10,000 copies per issue by the time I stopped editing the book (whatever issue that was). I know what page rates were, roughly what print runs were (like I just said) but no longer remember what printing costs were or what advertising revenue was. My guess is that Tales vol. 2 made money for the first ten issues or so and that it most likely lost money thereafter. __________________ [ ODYSSEY \| ORIGIN \| THE IMAGE/VOL. 3 CONCLUSION \| THE SHELLSHOCKED PODCAST \| ON FACEBOOK ]

01-18-2013, 09:02 PM	#136
DK2 Stone Warrior Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 599	Wow the numbers for Mirage losing out on their 2nd run of TMNT Publishing. I think Dan may be off on the numbers for Tales Vol. 2 though. No way its numbers were bigger than TMNT V4 numbers even in both series' debuts. If I'm not mistaken my memory is that TMNT Vol. 4 # 1-2 did like 12000 (18000 after 2nd print) and under. So Tales Vol.2 early issues had to be less than that. I like how he mentions the Tales TPB's were huge losses. I always wondered why Tales TMNT V2 got trades but not any TMNT V4 run? They made what like 10 trades during this publishing run (TMNT V1, Tales V1 + V2, Future Tense, Souls Winter, TMNT '07 movie prequels). To think all if not most didn't make money. I don't know much about book order and profit margins in the wholsale/direct markets. How does it work and how do they make money or break even? Can anyone explain? Especially through Diamond Dist? Dan also mentions how brutal it costed just to pay for ads in Previews. Diamond or the publishers also have a certain order amount/number to reach to remain solicited or its cancelled between the publishers themselves or by Diamond. Last edited by DK2; 01-19-2013 at 11:18 PM.

01-11-2022, 03:55 PM	#140
sorrenmj Random Punk Join Date: May 2021 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 28	Yay I finally got me a copy of issue 32, it is on its way right now. This is the last issue I need to complete my volume 4 run. I can't wait to received this. It looks mint in the photograph! I wish I had known this was released in 2014. I did wait since 2009 but gave up after three or four years thinking for sure it was never gonna happen. Well I have a copy coming now!

01-08-2013, 01:48 PM	#126
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 41,031	So basically only 5 issues of everything Mirage put out since 2001 made money. In other words about 28 issues of Volume 4, 70 issues of Tales, and those 16 TMNT spinoffs from Tales....all cost Mirage a fortune. And much of it came out of PL's pocket. Its pretty obvious why Mirage is not putting out new issues now, even if Dan and Jim wanted to do it for example. He only did it as a safeguard to finish Volume 4 when he wants to.

01-08-2013, 01:49 PM	#127
Oculus Orbus Mad Scientist Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Spain Posts: 1,535	Thanks for that, Andrew. You can argue that they were making lots of money with the franchise anyway, but publishing a book for so long despite the losses shows a lot of love for the media and the stories they were telling.

01-08-2013, 03:37 PM	#134
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 41,031	Well to be fair it is possibly IDW could publish the Forever War instead. Small possibility though.

01-19-2013, 03:58 PM	#137
Chris Mad Scientist Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: UK Posts: 1,890	Wow, I knew the books were making a loss towards the end but I had no idea that they were losing money that early in their runs! I have a lot of respect for Peter/Mirage. They truly were doing Vol. 4/Tales Vol. 2 for the fans.

01-19-2013, 04:24 PM	#138
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 41,031	Or as PL would say, he was really writing Vol. 4 for himself. He was flat out telling people to stop reading it after a while.

01-19-2013, 05:42 PM	#139
Chris Mad Scientist Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: UK Posts: 1,890	True, but he didn't have to keep Tales going and he could have made Vol. 4 online only (saving a LOT of printing costs) much sooner than he did.