People on minimum wage can't buy a house

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

What makes it worse is 5he current sentiment that "minimum wage jobs are for teenagers", even though they demonstrably are NOT. Went round and round with an idiot about this a while back, who refused to understand that MOST full time jobs in retail and food are held by ADULTS ages 25-45, with about 65% being women in the 30-40 age range. During hours when kids would be in school, or at home in bed. Yet he still insisted those jobs are "for kids".

Two statements are not mutually exclusive to each other - it is possible that those jobs are for kids and a lot of people who occupy them are adults, due to various circumstances, like being unable to find a better job, lack of skills, laziness and so on.

[Leo656]

To Aqua's post earlier... man, there's a McDonalds a mile from my house and EVERY single time I go there, they screw up my order. They either get something wrong or leave out things entirely (which I already paid for); it's at the point where I always, always have to check everything before we leave because way too many times we got home only to discover stuff wrong or missing.

And I can't help it, I'm like "These f*cking morons want $15 an hour?" That was more than I made driving a forklift and hauling furniture in the hot sun for 14-hour shifts during my entire 20s. And I was good at that job, these people suck at theirs, so I can't help but take personal offense at the idea they'd get paid so much for being f*ck-ups.

And I can't abide the "Pay us more money, then we'll work harder" mentality, either, because that just reeks of entitlement. Life doesn't work that way, never has, and honestly probably never should. You're supposed to excel first, THEN get rewarded, not get the reward upfront before you've done anything.

My most recent job, I worked at for ten years, between doing personal training and helping manage the gym. Y'know how many raises I got in that time? Zero. None. I was warned when I started there by the only person besides the owner who was there before me and stayed until we went under, "This guy's never gonna give you an extra dime". Most of the pay was commission-based, anyway - and the commission rate was rather generous - but the per-hour for sitting at the desk making phone calls was not great and never went up. But the boss had a system; he had a file on each employee, and in that file he had every single time you clocked in late, went home early, missed a day, "acted insubordinate", etc. And if you ever raised the topic of making more money, he would pull that file and start at the most recent grievance and then work backwards. And he'd more or less say "Based on this, you haven't honestly been consistent enough to earn more per hour, have you?" Now, to be fair, he did this with every single person there - the guy was just flat-out a cheapskate and even the people with the most spotless records never got raises - but his overall method was sound, if a bit heavy-handed. Everyone asks for more money but few employees do truly "earn" it in the first place. His go-to for me or anyone else who asked was always "Make more sales, you'll get more money. I don't pay people just to show up, you have to actually produce and perform." Easier said than done, obviously, and he didn't need to be SUCH a dick about it as he often was, but again, he had a valid point. People should be compensated for their efforts and performance, not the fact that they exist.

I do have empathy for people who get "stuck" living in a sh*t area, as that can really limit your options. The town I grew up in has always been kinda sh*t for jobs. I know ostensibly "just move to a place with more opportunity" would be a solution but that doesn't work for everyone. Like it helps to have some kind of safety net of friends or family who can help you get set up in a new area, without that it can be tough. Some people can't afford to move in the first place.

I'm kind of in a spot myself as I went to school for One Thing and Covid pretty much gutted the fitness industry. Some of my friends are getting by doing virtual training out of their homes, but I'm not equipped for that and none of the gyms over here are hiring trainers or paying jack sh*t right now, so I'm probably done with that business. The only place hiring is Planet Fitness but they pay no commissions and the hourly rate is garbage from what I can gather; none of their trainers stay there long and nobody ever talks out loud about what they pay there, which is code for "They don't."

So I kinda feel a bit disenfranchised myself, as when I was getting out of school and decided to pursue the career I did, it was based on the fact that "This will be a stable career where you can earn a comfortable living". Which is all it ever was, I never got rich but I never expected to, I only ever expected to do okay and I did okay. But now the One Thing I went to school for and was good at is pretty much no longer an option, and frankly, I don't know what I'm gonna do. The only jobs anyone seems to be doing okay with these days are tech and computer type stuff, and frankly, I'm just not smart enough to wrap my head around that stuff. Not everybody "gets" certain things and stuff like that, I just don't "get". And I'm now officially "pushing 40" so what limited options I had are further drying up because nobody really wants to hire you past that age regardless of field, unless it's something really specialized where years of experience are a plus.

So yeah, I'unno. Might be a "minimum-wager" soon just out of sheer necessity. Which would suck, on account of I always made more than what the minimum wage was. The upside, though, would be that minimum wage Now is a lot more than it was 20 years ago, so I guess that'd be some consolation. Sure is depressing to think about, though. To go from having a "career" doing the thing you went to school for, having to, I'unno, mop floors or push carts for a living. Hopefully it won't come to that but frankly there's not that much else to do around here.

So I'unno.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Leo656

To Aqua's post earlier... man, there's a McDonalds a mile from my house and EVERY single time I go there, they screw up my order. They either get something wrong or leave out things entirely (which I already paid for); it's at the point where I always, always have to check everything before we leave because way too many times we got home only to discover stuff wrong or missing.

And I can't help it, I'm like "These f*cking morons want $15 an hour?" That was more than I made driving a forklift and hauling furniture in the hot sun for 14-hour shifts during my entire 20s. And I was good at that job, these people suck at theirs, so I can't help but take personal offense at the idea they'd get paid so much for being f*ck-ups.

And I can't abide the "Pay us more money, then we'll work harder" mentality, either, because that just reeks of entitlement. Life doesn't work that way, never has, and honestly probably never should. You're supposed to excel first, THEN get rewarded, not get the reward upfront before you've done anything.

My most recent job, I worked at for ten years, between doing personal training and helping manage the gym. Y'know how many raises I got in that time? Zero. None. I was warned when I started there by the only person besides the owner who was there before me and stayed until we went under, "This guy's never gonna give you an extra dime". Most of the pay was commission-based, anyway - and the commission rate was rather generous - but the per-hour for sitting at the desk making phone calls was not great and never went up. But the boss had a system; he had a file on each employee, and in that file he had every single time you clocked in late, went home early, missed a day, "acted insubordinate", etc. And if you ever raised the topic of making more money, he would pull that file and start at the most recent grievance and then work backwards. And he'd more or less say "Based on this, you haven't honestly been consistent enough to earn more per hour, have you?" Now, to be fair, he did this with every single person there - the guy was just flat-out a cheapskate and even the people with the most spotless records never got raises - but his overall method was sound, if a bit heavy-handed. Everyone asks for more money but few employees do truly "earn" it in the first place. His go-to for me or anyone else who asked was always "Make more sales, you'll get more money. I don't pay people just to show up, you have to actually produce and perform." Easier said than done, obviously, and he didn't need to be SUCH a dick about it as he often was, but again, he had a valid point. People should be compensated for their efforts and performance, not the fact that they exist.

I do have empathy for people who get "stuck" living in a sh*t area, as that can really limit your options. The town I grew up in has always been kinda sh*t for jobs. I know ostensibly "just move to a place with more opportunity" would be a solution but that doesn't work for everyone. Like it helps to have some kind of safety net of friends or family who can help you get set up in a new area, without that it can be tough. Some people can't afford to move in the first place.

I'm kind of in a spot myself as I went to school for One Thing and Covid pretty much gutted the fitness industry. Some of my friends are getting by doing virtual training out of their homes, but I'm not equipped for that and none of the gyms over here are hiring trainers or paying jack sh*t right now, so I'm probably done with that business. The only place hiring is Planet Fitness but they pay no commissions and the hourly rate is garbage from what I can gather; none of their trainers stay there long and nobody ever talks out loud about what they pay there, which is code for "They don't."

So I kinda feel a bit disenfranchised myself, as when I was getting out of school and decided to pursue the career I did, it was based on the fact that "This will be a stable career where you can earn a comfortable living". Which is all it ever was, I never got rich but I never expected to, I only ever expected to do okay and I did okay. But now the One Thing I went to school for and was good at is pretty much no longer an option, and frankly, I don't know what I'm gonna do. The only jobs anyone seems to be doing okay with these days are tech and computer type stuff, and frankly, I'm just not smart enough to wrap my head around that stuff. Not everybody "gets" certain things and stuff like that, I just don't "get". And I'm now officially "pushing 40" so what limited options I had are further drying up because nobody really wants to hire you past that age regardless of field, unless it's something really specialized where years of experience are a plus.

So yeah, I'unno. Might be a "minimum-wager" soon just out of sheer necessity. Which would suck, on account of I always made more than what the minimum wage was. The upside, though, would be that minimum wage Now is a lot more than it was 20 years ago, so I guess that'd be some consolation. Sure is depressing to think about, though. To go from having a "career" doing the thing you went to school for, having to, I'unno, mop floors or push carts for a living. Hopefully it won't come to that but frankly there's not that much else to do around here.

So I'unno.

There's always OnlyFans. Hey ladies, see more of Rikki Roxx than you've ever seen before!

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

There's always OnlyFans. Hey ladies, see more of Rikki Roxx than you've ever seen before!

My wife made that exact same joke yesterday.

I don't think I have the motivation to trim my bush often enough to pursue that.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Went round and round with an idiot about this a while back, who refused to understand that MOST full time jobs in retail and food are held by ADULTS ages 25-45, with about 65% being women in the 30-40 age range. During hours when kids would be in school, or at home in bed. Yet he still insisted those jobs are "for kids".

Too bad we can't just snap our fingers and have all adults in better jobs "for adults," and then watch that guy get upset when he can't get his coffee Monday morning because the "kids" are in school, therefore, McDonald's and all other "kid" jobs won't open until 3 or 4pm. And open for only several hours because tomorrow is a school day and the kids need to go home and get the homework done before bed.

[Leo656]

I mean, the THEORY that "entry-level work" is "entry-level" and a person is supposed to move upwards over time IS at heart a sound theory.

"Back in my day", my teachers in school flat out said "If you're in your 30s or older and working in fast food or something like that, you'd best be managing the place or else you know you made some terrible life choices." They wouldn't even try to hide the contempt. The entire point was, "You're going to have to work a job like that at some point but you're not supposed to stay there."

The problem is, with the better-paying jobs getting more and more outsourced over time and lots of companies closing down branches in their less-desirable areas as well, how much upward mobility you have available to you depends greatly on where you live. Some places simply don't have anyplace to springboard to, and thus people get "trapped".

I do have empathy because I doubt most people got into the field they're in expecting to still be there at age ______, but then Life Happens. And it's easy to say, "Just do something else," but there's variables. Moving is expensive. School is expensive. Sometimes you're part of the support system for an ailing relative. All kinds of stuff happens. I'm an incredibly judgmental person, but short of drug and alcohol abuse I typically don't apply it to a person's job situation. I know better than most how much can go sideways and how little of it can be your fault. That moving and warehouse job I had was just a "short-term side gig" for quick cash that turned into a ten-year quagmire. I did manage to go to school at night and get my PT certification eventually, but it wasn't supposed to be by the time I was almost 30, it was supposed to be... well, about ten years earlier. But then Life Happened.

So it's like, I see it both ways. Entry-level is entry-level and not supposed to be something a person gets stuck doing for life... BUT unless you're good with computers, things over the last 20 years have shifted to a point where "upward mobility" is something that's simply out of reach for a lot of people. So many of the jobs people used to do 20 years ago, ones where "You won't get rich but you'll make a stable living for a long time" simply don't exist at all anymore. Part of the reason we don't even have a "Middle class" anymore is because there aren't even any "Middle class" jobs, period; you're either a Boss or a Schnook, with no real middle-ground.

Not sure what the solution is, other than a massive dip in the human population so that fewer people are competing for the resources.

[AquaParade]

I feel like my post is harsh, looking back at it. I stand by all of it, but I just feel for the people stuck in a minimum wage job who honestly deserve more. And there may be people like that here.

But yeah, I've worked for **** pay and supported myself for years, eating totino's party pizza for the day, so I know what it's like. Doesn't mean I wish that on any working adults though.

And minimum wage is still complicated. I just don't want to come off as a prick about it.

Enjoyed reading everyone's posts.

[Leo656]

I mean, kinda harsh, but like I've said, I deal with enough sh*t from people who openly half-ass what they do while bitching they don't earn enough, to make me go "Some'a you motherf*ckers are over-paid NOW."

But yeah, obviously anyone who actually does work hard and is competent is exempt from such statements.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I mean, kinda harsh, but like I've said, I deal with enough sh*t from people who openly half-ass what they do while bitching they don't earn enough, to make me go "Some'a you motherf*ckers are over-paid NOW."

But yeah, obviously anyone who actually does work hard and is competent is exempt from such statements.

Yeah, 100%

[CyberCubed]

You can't live on your own in NY on minimum wage unless you live in the ghetto with the drug addicts and the murderers, and even then you can't really afford it there either.

[Leo656]

NYC is a goddamn sewer anyways. Why people trip over themselves for the "privilege" of paying three grand a month for the equivalent of a walk-in closet with a shower just so they can brag about "I live in NYC!" and subsist on f*cking ramen is a mystery to me. But people do it, it's a Life Goal. Why, I'll never know.

I pretty much hate most of the entire state but a few of the non-city parts are still nice. Albeit still outrageously-priced for the "perk" of being "New York, but With Trees".

True story, I've also never met anyone from there who wasn't a huge asshole and acted like that's just the natural way to behave.

Basically, I sincerely think I'd rather die than live in New York. Definitely if it's NYC specifically.

[CyberCubed]

I live in Queens but I have to work in Manhattan. Queens is very different than Manhattan but still kinda expensive. The thing I notice the most in Manhattan is the bums/homeless on every single street corner.

[Leo656]

My Mom was from Queens. That's funny to me, for some reason.

Even within NJ, the closer you get to NY the sh*ttier things get. I live literally dead-center of NJ which is 99% suburbs. But I sometimes have to go way up North for wrestling shows, like "pretty much NY South", and good Lord, is it depressing. You go through a couple of lights and then all of a sudden you're in Cracktown.

We were on our way home from up there a few weeks ago, and I legit saw a bum standing on the side of the road in broad daylight, pants around his knees, wiping his ass with his hand. Big ol' smile on his face like it was the most natural thing in the world. Can only imagine what the f*ck drugs that guy was on.

But yeah, sh*t like that, you see a lot of in NY and NY-adjacent areas. Thankfully, not where I'm at. Part of why property taxes are so high over here is... well, it's actually a nice, clean place and people actually want to live here. There's no "glamour" involved in it and you can't brag to people by saying "I live in ______" but it's a great place if you wanna, like, have a family, have peace and quiet, and occasionally leave your door unlocked at night without worrying you're gonna get robbed and murdered in your sleep.

[IndigoErth]

Speaking of jobs that vanish... Was in a Five Below yesterday, and I don't know if they're all small, but the ones we have here all are. They usually only have one person doing checkout, occasionally I'll see two.

My point... The one I was in yesterday put in two new self checkouts by the door. Why does this tiny store need a self checkout?? Rarely do I even have to wait in line long to pay anyhow. It might be useful for Christmas, but come on.

Not like I usually see more than one person working on the floor either. At what point do they cut back to just the manager working the floor, no other employees, and letting customers checkout on their own.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Not like I usually see more than one person working on the floor either. At what point do they cut back to just the manager working the floor, no other employees, and letting customers checkout on their own.

If Elon Musk has his way... very, very, very soon.

He's openly talking about helping to build a future where everybody gets paid just to exist and the only people who work will be "by choice", so they're not even trying to pretend that Full Automation isn't the endgame, anymore.

Problem is... while going to work might be "a choice" in this hypothetical near-future, the people who make that "choice" are going to have nothing but the sh*ttiest jobs imaginable to pick from. Like JUST the ones machines can't do. So... construction, furniture moving, cutting hair, and health care, basically, and just about nothing else. Someone will ALWAYS have to wake up at 4am to go work at the hospital wiping old people's cancer-ridden asses for them, and you are gonna see all-out hatred, resentment and war between people who "choose" to work at such glamorous jobs (because Someone Will Always Have To) and those who get paid to do literally nothing at all.

So that future will ultimately work out great for lazy people, or people who already have sh*t jobs and therefore getting paid more money to do no work at all is a step forward in their personal situation. But for those who will "choose" to work (and again, less of a "choice" and more "SOME person will need to do This Task even if they're all but forced into it"), it will be terrible.

What you're going to see happen THEN is, the government is gonna start assigning jobs to people. Because nobody will WANT to go work that graveyard shift at the hospital, but someone has to, so they'll be "assigned", and that's their station in life now, forever. We see how well this works in other countries. It doesn't. BUT, that's what's going to happen once this fully-automated, "Nobody has to work (except for the ones who do)" future we're racing towards at an alarming rate actually comes to pass.

Sometimes, I think the first half of my life being Mostly-Sh*t was all in preparation for the second half of my life being, also, Mostly-Sh*t. At least I was prepared, I s'pose. No surprises!

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by Leo656

What you're going to see happen THEN is, the government is gonna start assigning jobs to people. Because nobody will WANT to go work that graveyard shift at the hospital, but someone has to, so they'll be "assigned", and that's their station in life now, forever. We see how well this works in other countries. It doesn't. BUT, that's what's going to happen once this fully-automated, "Nobody has to work (except for the ones who do)" future we're racing towards at an alarming rate actually comes to pass.

So basically Soviet Union system.
It worked out so great that quality of any social services, teaching and medicines was in a dire ****, because, there was no reason for people to work better, knowing they will be paid anyway, even if they do a bare minimum or nothing at all.

It also led to rampant alcoholism and thievery. It was completely normal in USSR for people to steal whatever stuff they could from their jobs, because, well, most people didn't really care - it was considered "state property" and since according to USSR constitution everything "belonged to the people" so did everything workers were stealing.

So much for commie / Musk utopia.

So if you want your country to stagnate and die - do this.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by Leo656

construction

Machines will do construction work and mining in the future.

That said, we need to prepare for a future society where machines do more and more work, and make something good out of it.

https://www.civilbeat.org/2016/01/we...s-do-our-jobs/

This is a process going on. Not everyone working today will wake up unemployed tomorrow. Let's check out:

Prehistory-10 000 BC: Hunter and gatherer society. Everyone works.

10 000 BC-cirka 1750 AD: Agricultural society. Most people work to survive, litterally, in agriculture. Only the richest people don't need to work.

Circa 1750-1973 AD: Industrial society. A lot of people still work, but technological innovation reduces the need for workforce. (Industrial Society ends with the Oil Crisis of 1973–1974).

1973 AD– : Post-industrial information society. Machines take over more and more jobs.

So, for every year since the Industrial Revolution, jobs have disappeared while the standard of living has increased. Machines doing work has also made it easier for us during the 2020–2021 Corona Pandemic.

You can't do today's business with yesterday's methods

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

Machines will do construction work and mining in the future.

That said, we need to prepare for a future society where machines do more and more work, and make something good out of it.

https://www.civilbeat.org/2016/01/we...s-do-our-jobs/

This is a process going on. Not everyone working today will wake up unemployed tomorrow. Let's check out:

Prehistory-10 000 BC: Hunter and gatherer society. Everyone works.

10 000 BC-cirka 1750 AD: Agricultural society. Most people work to survive, litterally, in agriculture. Only the richest people don't need to work.

Circa 1750-1973 AD: Industrial society. A lot of people still work, but technological innovation reduces the need for workforce. (Industrial Society ends with the Oil Crisis of 1973–1974).

1973 AD– : Post-industrial information society. Machines take over more and more jobs.

So, for every year since the Industrial Revolution, jobs have disappeared while the standard of living has increased. Machines doing work has also made it easier for us during the 2020–2021 Corona Pandemic.

You can't do today's business with yesterday's methods

I think we will have a lot of automated digging and bot-drilling, but when it comes to actual construction and not just extraction, I think it's going to be a while before that is widely automated.

Not saying it won't happen, but rather that it's on the far side of "time from now". We still haven't gotten to the point where those DARPA walking-dog-things have begun to hump packs through the wilderness for the military, let alone carry construction materials to a waiting crew at the private company job site, you know?

Automation is definitely coming on a larger scale, but we haven't even expanded the capacity of drone use or truly automated retail functionality yet. We will have to have self-driving freight prolific in society before we have a "skilled" robotic work force.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Sumac

Two statements are not mutually exclusive to each other - it is possible that those jobs are for kids and a lot of people who occupy them are adults, due to various circumstances, like being unable to find a better job, lack of skills, laziness and so on.

Not actually true. Those jobs were never intended "for kids". That is a concept that didn't come about until the fifties or so, when teens started actually taking part time jobs for extra cash. Somehow, the idea that those jobs were there FOR kids got cemented into society due to the number of afternoon and weekend jobs teens started working.

[CyberCubed]

Minimum wage means less than $20,000 a year. There is no place you can live on less than $20,000 a year around here.