04-28-2022, 06:00 AM | #21 |
Mad Scientist
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Is it just me or is the reception not super glowing for the ending?
I'm not really seeing much fanfare for the ending, mostly just "yeah, ok, it ended, cool." I am seeing debates about mutant turtle semen, however....... |
04-28-2022, 06:13 AM | #22 |
The Franchise
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All roads lead to spooge.
"Circle of Life", or... something. In all seriousness, to cover something someone else said earlier about the series feeling like it started hotter than it ended... that's honestly most things. For one thing, it's hard to sustain momentum, for another, Endings Are Hard, and three, we're hardwired to be more critical of Endings than Beginnings because the ending is the last thing you see, therefore, it's going to be the most recent thing on your mind and the last thing you dwell upon. Unless you come up with the ending first, and work backwards from that, it is incredibly difficult to have The Ending be the best and most powerful moment of any story. This is why most wrestling matches are booked with the finish first and everything building towards it; you want the very last thing people see to be the most memorable. But most stories are not written that way. Some are, most aren't. But it's really the only way to have the ending be the "best" or most satisfying part. ----------- Plus, I don't have the numbers but between delays and just The Way Things Are, a ton of buzz fell off as the series went on and I wouldn't be shocked if a ton of people who picked up the first one or two issues were not there for the ending. They may have completely stopped paying attention to the release dates so they may not even know it finally came out. For TMNT fans this was a Big Huge Deal, but for most people it was just one of several comics they pick up. Gotta remember that as well.
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04-28-2022, 08:04 AM | #23 |
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I think the ending was slightly disappointing, but it's still dominating sales charts - both issue #5 and now the hardcover collection - so I think most people stuck with it.
I wouldn't agree with the notion that this was a big deal for TMNT fans, but no one else, unless we are counting "casual" tmnt fans, who came out and supported this thing in droves all the way through. I guess it would have to speak to just how many TMNT fans are still out there, waiting for good stories. Financially, it's nothing less than a huge success. |
04-28-2022, 08:49 AM | #24 | |
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It was unexpected that i was like that though, i did tell my girlfriend all about it but thats it. |
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04-28-2022, 08:56 AM | #25 |
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My wild guess is that Kevin, himself, spent too much time tinkering with #5, back and forth, until it ended up as a "muddy brown" color, metaphorically.
Or Kevin took on too much work at once, and just exhausted himself, while trying to wrap this up. It's no secret that he's been behind on this book, since the day it was announced (not his fault), and all the while, he's been apparently turning in work for other tmnt projects, whether that's Neca box art, stuff for his website, or whatever other tmnt ventures he gets into. I actually feel like each issue of this series was worse than the previous issue. #1 & 2 started out extremely sharp, and by issue #5, it was just "pretty good". Those Escorza brothers really are great though. I love the texture and detail to their pencils. |
04-28-2022, 09:39 AM | #26 |
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Or there was a big fiasco with Nick and approvals. Art and content had to be changed, etc. No way in hell was that ending what was originally envisioned.
And I think Kevin's involvement in this is overstated a little. Sure it's mostly his story synopsis with Peter from 1987 (and I do believe the story is mostly Kevin's, as he's mainly the Frank Miller guy and not Peter), dusted off and repurposed. Sure Kevin did all the layouts. I'm just not sure when it came to the scripting part of things Kevin was much more than a guy throwing notes at Waltz.
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04-28-2022, 10:03 AM | #27 | ||
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What are you imagining would be "out of bounds" to the point that it would effect more than just a couple panels (e.i. Saki getting his head lobbed off - which would have been pretty cool, admittedly)? I mean, it's possible, but even then, I can't imagine it having an effect on the entire issue. Unlesssssssssss....didn't the head of Nickelodeon recently change? How recently, if so? Is it possible he tried to come put this thing out, with his boot, during the making of the final issue? Just a wild theory with little basis. Quote:
I'd argue that doing all the layouts is a huge part of the job. It directs the tone and the pace of the entire story. Let alone when those layouts are based on your own outline, character designs, etc. Layouts are one of the things Kevin is sort of known for, as a storyteller. He's never been the best penciller, but fans of Mirage comics know he has an eye for action-choreography. Besides, it just feels like a Kevin Eastman story down to the bone - the way it moves and paces itself, the violence, the action, the Frank Miller influences. The only thing it's missing are a pair of big-honking-boobs. Even the way the character's speak feel more in line with the Mirage books, than the IDW ongoing. It's got all his strengths and his flaws. Moreover, I just don't see any evidence for this. It'd be an interesting "hunch", but once you listen to enough interviews he's done over the last few years, it just becomes sort of obvious that he is knee-deep in this series. There's just too much evidence against this to form a strong argument, besides "well, IDW overplayed Peter's involvement at first, so!" which only goes about an inch. You need more than that to even have a conspiracy theory. Last edited by AquaParade; 04-28-2022 at 10:29 AM. |
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04-28-2022, 10:24 AM | #28 |
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lmaoooo Hiroto went full Kylo
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04-28-2022, 02:20 PM | #29 |
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A part I felt was a bit weird was Hiroto keeping his mother frozen only to outright kill her. I get that he's nuts but it does seem a bit... Off. I'm also curious as to who his father was, I guess it's not all that important but it might have been interesting to know.
While I think it's meant to be ambiguous, I'd like to know if Mike being back with his family was intended to be a dying hallucination or the afterlife. I'm leaning more toward the former because the latter seems a little too sappy for me. And yes, April creating new mutant turtles is not ethical. I get that if they want to build on this continuity and keep the "Ninja Turtles" name there needs to be mutant ninja turtles around for it to make sense. It's just that making new ones when the old ones had to deal with being social outsiders isn't exactly good thing to do. It's not exactly like buying a new puppy when the old dog died. And... Well, obviously this story doesn't really fit any previously established continuity but does anyone think there is one that it doesn't contradict too much? |
04-28-2022, 02:32 PM | #30 |
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Kevin was saying part of the reason he likes the oversized format is that you can fit this series alongside the original few oversized issues. I think he intends it to build off that original Mirage continuity, before carving it’s own path and ending up here.
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04-28-2022, 09:26 PM | #31 | |
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04-28-2022, 11:03 PM | #32 |
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That was what he was talking about after the Nick sale. His pitch for a maxi-series shopped around that just picked up after "Return to New York" but not "City at War." There's some shades of "Last Ronin" to it but not much, but maybe that'd be the idea with some kind of ongoing Last Ronin prequel series. Except now it'd be some kind of alternate IDW/Mirage hybrid universe like Last Ronin is.
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04-28-2022, 11:28 PM | #33 |
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I liked the ending. Could have been better, but still pretty decent.
What I didn't like: 1) Obvious "there's going to be more" bait 2) That said bait Spoiler:
3) Spoiler:
4) Spoiler:
But overall it's a nice finale to a pretty good series. There's not much to add. |
04-29-2022, 05:25 AM | #34 |
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I suppose the difference is while this mini-series was good, it really is just a 5-part elseworlds tale in a dystopian future where most of the main cast is dead. This concept has been done a million times in both TMNT and other franchises. That's why after it ends there's not much to talk about because well the events don't really matter for any particular series.
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04-29-2022, 05:53 AM | #35 |
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In answer to your fourth dislike, I think it wasn't just his hatred and lunacy, but that he wanted to rob Mike of that particular goal. That's best, least spoilers way I can put it.
Just a thought though. Nothing else. |
04-29-2022, 06:38 AM | #36 | |
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I'm sure this one would have more impact with at least some people if it were explicitly presented as "The Last Mirage TMNT Story" or "The Last IDW TMNT Story" with no confusion that it may not be. As simply "the last TMNT story of some amalgamated TMNT universe that never existed outside of this one story", it's a bit less impactful. It's "the end" of something that technically never even existed, since it's not Mirage canon, IDW canon, or any other canon but its own. Of course, that's not going to matter as much or even at all to every single person, but it inarguably matters to some people. I don't mind saying, Cubed, that your insights and inputs when you're not playing your character can occasionally be pretty meaningful and I wouldn't mind seeing more of that.
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04-29-2022, 07:34 AM | #37 |
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Canon is a huge deal for many comic readers. I tend to just enjoy a good story, regardless. I see canon as a tool to be used, not a ball and chain to be worn.
But at the same time, with my love of Mirage, had it been tied more heavily to that continuity, it may have had a bigger impact on me, but it’s hard to say. I suppose I’m just grateful that it feels like a Mirage story, which is the type of TMNT comic I want to read. And while it may not be “canon” to an established universe, it’s still coming from Kevin himself, which is damn cool, compared to most franchises, that are 35+ years old and getting their version of “DKR”. No one else can really say that. So in some ways, it’s the most “canon” of all. I agree with those critiques, Ryo Hisagi. I think one of the reasons this issue feels like one of the weakest is bc it became clear that some of these built up plots weren’t really going anywhere. Why did Karai stick around? Why did Casey need a mutation plot? Why did Mikey need a second-mutation plot? Those things don’t really add up in a satisfying way, imo. Luckily, I wasn’t really there for those aspects in the first place, but it felt choppy. |
04-29-2022, 07:53 AM | #38 |
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Side rant, triggered by this conversation.
One of the biggest bummers about Mirage is that it never got - and never will get - a proper ending, even though it's sort of implied throughout that the creators had a definitive ending in mind that they were hinting at/building towards, but we never got to see because the money ran out and the creators lost interest/focus. It sort of feels like a rip that arguably the most "important" TMNT universe of all just sort of went away, with so many things unresolved. Granted, not everything in life gets a satisfying conclusion, but again, there were times in Mirage where it looked like it might all be building to Something... and then Something didn't happen. And now, it never will. This might be "the closest we'll ever get" but it's still clearly not anywhere close to what a "real" Mirage ending would be. And I'm outspoken that Mirage doesn't even impress me all that much, but it's still disappointing to me that it's doomed to forever be open-ended. Its fans deserved better. I always felt like Vol. 4 should probably have been more about tying up loose ends and "closing the book" rather than introducing a bunch MORE plot threads that were never going to go anywhere. That was some poor resource management on Laird's part. Like yeah, he got to tell the story he felt like telling - such as it was - but c'mon, which would most people prefer to have had? An "actual ending" for the series that started it all, or a bunch of fever-dream scribbles that went nowhere and ended with no resolution at all? Especially knowing as we do Now that such an ending is forever impossible.
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04-29-2022, 08:33 AM | #39 |
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I might be in the minority, but I love the open-ended nature of Mirage. Had they not planted seeds as to where the turtles end up, I’d feel different. But I find the ambiguous nature to not only fit the “slice-of-life” tone of Mirage, but also to be quite touching. I like the mystery of wondering where Mikey wound up, or wondering what type of fallout led to the events seen in “Old Times.”
Like a horror-movie monster, sometimes less is more. There’s just enough there to stoke your imagination. In some ways, it feels much more organic than a proper “the end” finale. Again, I’m probably the minority. I know comic readers can be very anal about canon and such. |
04-29-2022, 08:44 AM | #40 |
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I love comics, it's just something about the medium that is inherently flawed. It's the only place where you're allowed/encouraged to tell a story that has (and never will have) an ending. And that's a big reason the medium has never been more popular than it is, and will always remain niche.
I mean individual stories within a larger series obviously have endings. But it's like, there will never be an official "Last Superman Story", "Last Batman Story", and so on, since these characters are now more something to merchandise than actual "characters" within "stories". The stories they exist in no longer even matter, they're mostly just a way to maintain copyright so they can keep making toys. One reason a lot of people cite manga as being better than "regular" comic books is because for better or worse, and even if it takes them decades to get there, there's usually a Beginning, Middle, and End to whatever saga it is. "Power of imagination", sure, and I totally get that - no "official" ending for TMNT, Superman, or Batman would ever be as satisfying as what we write in our heads; just look at how people reacted to the Star Wars prequels and sequels as proof of that - but still. You could never get away with it in a "proper" storytelling medium. Stories are supposed to have three acts; in comics, in the "longform" sense and not simply talking individual arcs, you only ever get Act I and Act II, and then you have to make up your own Act III. Imagine if Tolkien never wrote "Return of the King" and told everyone to just "use their imagination" as to how it all wrapped up. People wouldn't stand for it, and that mythos wouldn't still be remembered and revered. Nobody would ever revisit the first two books for anything but a lark, knowing they'd never get any sort of resolution/conclusion. One of those things that makes comics "great", I supposed. Just saying.
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