"Be patient. It’s going to be okay. We’re being respectful of the franchise.”

[CyberCubed]

Because it still hasn't even aired yet. You can't judge until at least the first few episodes air, and we see what the tone and animation of the show is like, what the plots are, etc.

It's still way too early to know how this series will turn out.

[plastroncafe]

But if you add enough corners to a square it becomes a circle again.

Every single negative comment on that page can be reduced to:
I don't like this.

Which as personal opinions go is a pretty benign one.
However, when one puts a value judgement based on their own preferences, then we start moving away from benign.

"I don't like this thing."
is different than.
"This thing is bad."

In short, "Why should their wants and needs as a fan outweigh everyone else's."

And also, "just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life."

[Andrew NDB]

It'd be one thing if this show even remotely pretended to be geared toward older audiences (I mean hell, even the "Young Adults" range) or existing fans... then hey, fair game. But it's not. It's not pretending to be with even a single fiber.

Like, should old fans of Teddy Ruxpin be upset that the new one doesn't have a cassette deck or because its eyes look wrong? No, that's dumb. It's not for you.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

It'd be one thing if this show even remotely pretended to be geared toward older audiences (I mean hell, even the "Young Adults" range) or existing fans... then hey, fair game. But it's not. It's not pretending to be with even a single fiber.

Which is what I thought about Adventure Time, Steven Universe, and Teen Titans GO!, before I started watching them and I was mistaken about all three.

Then again, I think we have a difference of opinion as to what constitutes Being Geared Towards An Older Audience.

[Leonardo_thebest]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

But if you add enough corners to a square it becomes a circle again.

To infinity and beyond I suppose?

On the one side, the look and feel is ugly, the turtles have been changed simply for the sake of change, and overall everything feels cheap and goofy.
On the other side, the cast is stacked with fresh diverse talent, and we got our black April.

So sure, there are some good things inside, but they strayed too far from the path. We know from the past, there's zero chance of making most turtle fans happy, and if you do, the fanbase has an apathetic response.

I think Nick would rather poke the bear than let it sleep. Bear or, maybe baby.

Definitely babies.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

In short, "Why should their wants and needs as a fan outweigh everyone else's."
And also, "just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life."

Why make change for the sake of change? And that last part is both unfair and inconsiderate, and you know it.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Leonardo_thebest

On the one side, the look and feel is ugly, the turtles have been changed simply for the sake of change, and overall everything feels cheap and goofy.

What do we think a Change Not Made For The Sake Of Change looks like?

[Leonardo_thebest]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

What do we think a Change Not Made For The Sake Of Change looks like?

I look better in black it slims me. If I was wearing brown the day before, I felt fat, and black looks better on me so the next day, I wear black. Everyone agrees, except for my friend Becky, who, would rather see me in polka dots. Becky Likes polka dots, but they do not look good on me, in my opinion. Becky is tired of me wearing black most of the time, even though, I wear it rather infrequently and am often complimented on my clothing.

I still like black, but, I try polka dots on Tuesday, for the sake of change. I look terrible, but Beck is happy. Becky now tries to convince me that I look great, while the rest of the office is giving me screwy looks.

I change BACK to my drab clothing the next day.

*ahem, change NOT made for the sake of change is everything in the above story that wasn't involved in polka dots.


You can defend your stance, or you can be reasonable about what falls outside the expectations for an audience, for a brand of entertainment they like.
Had the look and feel been more in line with what had come before, everybody would be on board.

Bad design is possible, and you can't force polka dots on folks who don't want them. I mean, you CAN, and Nick IS, but it won't be popular, unless some other part of it IS great. So maybe the shows writing and animation will save it, but that doesn't mean the designs were ever good, they only become familiar.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Respecting it to me is not screwing with the deepest parts of it; not screwing with who they are as individuals which is largely influenced by a collective melding of the franchise over the 30+ years.

Respect isn't, "Hey, look, they're gonna have lots of pizza! Do silly things! And have lots of toy opportunities!" It's not turning Leo into an asshat, or Splinter into...whatever the hell is going on there. Not erasing Hamato Yoshi as the last movies did. And so on.

But that is only my perspective and only speak for myself.

I can agree with that. but, again, then nyou run into the reboot problem. where producers feel the need to change something so much so it doesn't look like it did before. and that's where problems begin.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

What do we think a Change Not Made For The Sake Of Change looks like?

Character development.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Leonardo_thebest

I look better in black it slims me. If I was wearing brown the day before, I felt fat, and black looks better on me so the next day, I wear black. Everyone agrees, except for my friend Becky, would rather see me in polka dots. Becky Likes polka dots, but they do not look good on me, in my opinion. Becky is tired of me wearing black most of the time, even though, I wear it rather infrequently and am often complimented on my clothing.

I still like black, but, I try polka dots on Tuesday, for the sake of change. I look terrible, but Beck is happy. Becky now tries to convince me that I look great, while the rest of the office is giving me screwy looks.

I change BACK to my drab clothing the next day.

*ahem, change NOT made for the sake of change is everything in the above story that wasn't involved in polka dots.

You can defend your stance, or you can be reasonable about what falls outside the expectations for an audience, for a brand of entertainment they like.

Had the look and feel been more in line with what had come before, everybody would be on board.

Bad design is possible.

Bad design IS possible, but bad design isn't "I don't like this."

For instance it's the difference between.
Dude, that metaphor is stupid. And you're stupid for having written it. I wasted time reading that. Time I'll never get back. Why are you so f*cking dense?

And.

I don't know that the metaphor is really answering the question I was proposing. I want to know how one reboots a fictional property without making changes for the sake of changes.
And what you responded with was something about personal preference.
I don't think this is the 1:1 ratio you're looking for.

What if you'd put on the dots and loved them? And never would have known you loved them because you hadn't tried them?
Sure you took a chance, and that chance had the option of failure as part of the deal, but if all you ever did was run your life by committee you run the risk of never doing anything except what you've already done.

Sure, you look good in black, but someday that particular shirt is going to fade.
That particular cut or style is going to fall out of fashion. And because you've never tried anything new, you just look like your 4th grade teacher who still wore leisuresuits into the 1990s.


But I agree: Eff Becky.
She wouldn't know good taste if it fell out of a tree and hit her.

[Leonardo_thebest]

One more thing about Becky and the polka dots.

See, the thing about Becky is, she only likes the polka dots because most people don't. She even wears stripes and clashing colors with them, because Becky wants to stand out. She likes to be difficult, and go against the grain. she hates conformity.

For Becky, she knows polka dots are not popular, and they rub people the wrong way, and it's exactly for that reason that she wants polka dots on everything.


EDIT:

When is change not for the sake of change? You've set a trap. We could argue the root of the meaning of change,
or we could agree that it's a common saying that sits alongside "if it a'int broke" etc etc.
Bad design stems from people needing to fingerprint things they work on, and we KNOW that.
We know the changes made here were specifically made to differentiate this series from the last, and set it apart on the toy shelf from 30 feet away.
The silhouettes are drastically different. It has a sloppy look and feel, and incorporates pieces of Bay turtles that wee universally disparaged.

This new series has been built by a group of Beckys.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Leonardo_thebest

One more thing about Becky and the polka dots.

See, the thing about Becky is, she only likes the polka dots because most people don't. She even wears stripes and clashing colors with them, because Becky wants to stand out. She likes to be difficult, and go against the grain. she hates conformity.

For Becky, she knows polka dots are not popular, and they rub people the wrong way, and it's exactly for that reason that she wants polka dots on everything.

I take it back, Becky sounds awesome.
I mean, she went out of her way to share what she believes is special to her with you.

And at the end of the day, it's just clothes.

Edit:
When is change not for the sake of change? you've set a trap? Bad design stems from people needing to fingerprint things they work on, and we KNOW that.
We know the changes made here were specifically made to differentiate this series from the last, and set it apart on the toy shelf from 30 feet away.
The silhouettes are drastically different. It has a sloppy look and feel, and incorporates pieces of Bay turtles that wee universally disparaged.

This new series has been built by a group of Beckys.

I didn't set a trap.
I asked a question because I was genuinely curious about the answer.

What I find interesting is that you couldn't just diagree with Becky, you had to come back and make sure that not only were her choices bad, because they differed with yours...but that she was also a horrible person.

[IndigoErth]

Becky sounds annoying. I'm all for being an individual and sharing with the world what makes you tick and makes you unique, but she's trying too hard. Like this damn series. (Or sounds so far.)


Look at me! Aren't I different?! You should be impressed by my differentness!

[Leonardo_thebest]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Becky sounds annoying. I'm all for being an individual and sharing with the world what makes you tick and makes you unique, but she's trying too hard. Like this damn series.

Yes. exactly.

Why would Raph be the leader? No real reason, other than it's a quick way refernce this series, as a talking point.

"Hey, did you see what they did to the latest TMNT? Raph is the leader now!"
"Say what Jim? No way daddy-o? Wait wasn't Donatello the leader with the Blue bandana?"

"No dude, that was...nevermind let me show you."

CLICK

Every change was driven to provoke a response, like a troll.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Leonardo_thebest

Yes. exactly.

Why would Raph be the leader? No real reason, other than it's a quick way refernce this series, as a talking point.

"Hey, did you see what they did to the latest TMNT? Raph is the leader now!"
"Say what Jim? No way daddy-o? Wait wasn't Donatello the leader with the Blue bandana?"

"No dude, that was...nevermind let me show you."

CLICK

Every change was driven to provoke a response, like a troll.

Is there an incarnation where Raph hasn't chafed under Leo's authority?
Where he wanted to be leader?

Maybe...the original toon?
Any others?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Maybe...the original toon?

Raphael did outright challenge his leadership once in Turtle Trek.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Character development.

That's not exactly a thing this franchise has ever had an overabundance of, so I hardly expect that to start now.

And I say that with love.

[Leonardo_thebest]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Is there an incarnation where Raph hasn't chafed under Leo's authority?
Where he wanted to be leader?

Maybe...the original toon?
Any others?

Right, or maybe, it's closer to the time that Megan Fox opined to Jimmy Kimmel that Raph was the Leader?

Like I said, it is clearly driven by toy-etic thinking, nothing more, and that's fine, but if that's what you're doing, then the look and feel are VERY important, and so far, it's been a huge misfire.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Leonardo_thebest

Right, or maybe, it's closer to the time that Megan Fox opined to Jimmy Kimmel that Raph was the Leader?

Like I said, it is clearly driven by toy-etic thinking, nothing more, and that's fine, but if that's what you're doing, then the look and feel are VERY important, and so far, it's been a huge misfire.

I think Parner's In Kryme has her beat by at least a decade.
(t-u-r-t-l-e power)

"What if this time Leo just decided to step back and watch Raph make a fool of himself for a while. Maybe heckle him the way he's been heckling Leo for all these years?"

Nah dude, can't do that.
We're not allowed to explore new avenues, that's just changing something for the sake of changing it.

We have to stick to this script, and then write new stories....without them actually being new.

It could flop spectacularly, but I still wouldn't see this as a Bad Design.

[Leonardo_thebest]

We're not looking at it from the same angle.
I don't see this as creative license, I see this as creative licensing, and I definitely don't think they're thinking in those terms. Of course, I'd happily be proven wrong.

The design is still ugly, can't reframe.
I do respect the fact that you like it, but that's opinion territory, similar to the ones that hate it.

I'm sure over time, it will become THE defacto version of the turtles, and eventually, Mirage will be painted over and forgotten, while 2012 will soon stand as the new OG.
It is the way of all things. they are not ours anymore.