Joker 2

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Plus this is made-up, nonsense Batman universe that doesn't matter, so who cares?

Well, exactly. Why Should I Give A Sh*t? And I don't.

First one was "fine" as a one-and-done, but even on the second viewing it was like, "Yeah, wow, people are so easily amused anymore if they think this is anything more than Taxi Driver in clownface". Not a single original idea anywhere to be found, and all of its "brilliance" is in the gimmick of "Let's do a movie about a comic book character... (dramatic pause) except that we DON'T make it a 'comic book movie'! Eh? Ehhhhhh?!" It ain't "bad", but if that thing is a modern masterpiece of cinema then it only serves to illustrate how far standards have fallen, because it's completely f*cking mundane after you've already watched it once.

For all its self-importance, it doesn't even feel like it has anything to say. "Life is hard for poor people?" Yeah, we know. "Rich people can be slimy?" Yeah, we know. "Society makes life difficult for the mentally ill?" Yeah, we know. We know all of that because movies existed before This One showed up and shined a light on ALL of those things so eloquently. It all comes off like the stoner ramblings of a college-aged kid who's just had his first Sociology class and suddenly figured out that Life Isn't Fair, and he just has to tell you ALL the reasons Why That Is. It's insufferable on long car rides, it's insufferable at Denny's at 3am, and it's not a whole lot more endearing when stretched over three hours of a movie.

I probably come off like I hate it, but I actually don't. I liked it enough to buy it. It's just my natural reaction whenever things become supremely overrated simply because they exist in a time and place where everything around them is SO bad that the mundane becomes "brilliant" simply by not being as awful as everything else. And that's what "Joker" is; it's a "decent" movie that gets elevated to being "a brilliant movie" not because it actually IS that, but rather simply because most movies that come out nowadays are TRULY awful. Therefore anything NOT awful suddenly deserves an Oscar.

Also, Harley Quinn can f*ck off forever as far as I'm concerned. The oversaturation of the character in recent years has me no longer even caring about how hot she generally is. I'm just SO sick of her by now. I get that it's natural territory for a sequel to go into, so that's fine. I'm just over it.

OOOOH! OHHHH! Maybe "Harley" isn't even real! Maybe she's all just a figment of his imagination, like the "relationship" he had with the chick in the first one was! "Brilliant!"

I just saved y'all ten bucks for the sequel, that's the Shocking Third Act Plot Twist. "Harley's just another hallucination". Would we be shocked, though? Honestly?
-----------------------

Aside from all that, though, I'm just completely bored with yet another "gritty and real" take on the Batman mythos. I'm so over all that sh*t. All I ever cared about seeing in Batman movies was Actual Comic Book Stuff. I went along with the Nolan-verse because it was the best we were ever gonna get and it works fine in its own arena, but now that comic book movies actually do Actual Comic Book Stuff on a regular basis, I'm fed up with not getting that with Batman. We got five whole minutes of it thanks to Snyder and now all anyone wants to do is go back to sucking all the fantasy out of it again. F*cking YAWN. No f*cks given about This Thing, no f*cks given about The Batman 2, no more f*cks to give AT ALL about "realistic, real-world, no fantasy, no whimsy, no-fun-at-all" Batman movies. Wake me up when they go back to doing Actual Comic Book Stuff. That's when I'll give a sh*t. People who think Batman is cool because "he's realistic", and that his world would somehow work BETTER if it were "more realistic" are completely missing the point of things.

Batman's not even a realistic character in the first place, what with his Infinite Money and God Mode cheats being constantly turned on ever since Grant Morrison got his hands on him back in the 90s. But he never was "realistic" to begin with. Which is why the never-ending push to "make it More Real" rings so jarringly false. All you get with that approach are worse-looking costumes and dumber origin stories.

There's a bit of a line most people seem to not recognize, with regard to "Being More Realistic" and "Striving For Realism" and the subtle but important distinction between those two things. With regard to super-heroes, the former is something you can attempt but the latter is just plain silly. There is nothing at all realistic about super-heroes, not even Batman. Which is why "Make everything 100% True To Life" is just boring and misguided. Conversely, "Being More Realistic" without "striving for realism" would be something like, for example, "Man of Steel" framing Superman's emergence as a First Contact story, because naturally that's what it would be. It's still not "realistic", though, because we have flying aliens shooting laser beams and spaceships that can move between folds in space/time. A Superman movie that "strives for realism" would be just f*cking awful, but "being more realistic" serves to elevate the material by bringing it out of being a simple fairy tale.

It's a bit of a nuanced point, I'll grant. Most people just see the word "Realistic" and assume it's an all-or-nothing game, but it really isn't. You can be "more realistic" and make the material more relatable to people who don't read comics, but actually "BEING Realistic" is simply not the right way to do super-heroes, because everything about them is fantasy wish-fulfillment. The "make it Real Life" angle is only pushed by people who are ashamed of the source material and wish it were "actual literature". Well, it's not.

It's whatever, if people want Batman movies with all the fun stuff taken out so it's just a guy in SWAT gear getting in back alley fistfights instead of joining a Fight Club, good for them I guess. I personally just want Actual Batman Movies. When those start happening, I'll care. Until then... yawn. All just different people trying to out-Nolan Nolan. Not new, not fun, not interesting. Not to me, anyway.

[superstaff]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Well that all sounds f*cking horrible.

That'd be a great way to ensure I never see it, though. Both of those things. I don't really do musicals, and I absolutely f*cking loathe Gaga. She's ugly, and her entire gimmick worked better the first time around when it was called "Madonna's Entire Career".

More and more, it feels like WB wants to do everything possible to ensure that they NEVER get another dime outta me. The laser-focused precision with which they make decisions seemingly for no reason other than to aggravate Me, and Only Me, is really quite alarming.

I think this applies to us both, my friend. At least you enjoyed the Snyder DCEU stuff. I've disliked most of WB's DC stuff after 2008. Most of it, but even when they do something I end up enjoying, they make sure to ruin the sequels for them.

Which leads me to...

Originally Posted by AquaParade

The Batman 2 is going to kick ass. Stoked we are getting sequels to both of these. Couldn't be happier about it, personally. I do feel for everyone who can't get on with these versions but oh well.

I'm probably the only other person on TF who enjoyed The Batman, but even I'm not super excited for the sequel because, knowing WB's track record, I'm expecting a train wreck for the sequel. I'd love to be wrong just like I was wrong about The Batman being Suckfest 2022, however I don't trust Warner Bros at all. I expect The Batman 2 to star Billie Eilish as Poison Ivy and Kanye West as Mr. Freeze, along with LeBron James as Bane, and Michael Keaton dropping in for a cameo too because he's going to be in all the DC movies from now on.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Why?



Why would they feel the need to "make up" for anything? They don't want him in anything. Even vindicated he's too controversial now and would poison a movie's marketing campaign.

A. Because it sucks to not like things and the people who dislike these films....really dislike them to the point they bring them up out of nowhere.
Sort of like being a TMNT fan and being served PD films, for those people, I suppose.

B. Just seems like a WB thing to do - sway to public opinion.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Aside from all that, though, I'm just completely bored with yet another "gritty and real" take on the Batman mythos.

I used to want that, after Batman & Robin. And then we got it with Batman Begins. The itch was scratched. I certainly wasn't left wanting to see a doubling down on that. No, I wanted to see the larger than life stuff in the Batman mythos brought to life, but properly now. A world where it wouldn't be weird to see him wrestling with a monstrous Killer Croc or Clayface, not spray-painting his mansion and wearing an REI outfit with a $300 Amazon squirrel suit.

Snyder's "take" on Batman isn't exactly what I'd prefer to see but it's worlds closer than this sh**. And I would bet the farm even the Affleck/Johns script was more exciting and interesting than The Batman we got.

Originally Posted by AquaParade

B. Just seems like a WB thing to do - sway to public opinion.

Ah. Well that's a decent enough point, then.

[AquaParade]

I'd be sick of realistic Batman too if it wasn't so well done. I don't like it for being grounded, but I'm fine with it when it looks and sounds this good, and full of emotional weight.
So I'm cool with the grounded aspect.

But I want to see the other elements represented in live action too. I don't even feel like we are lacking that though. Since Nolan, we've seen him fight Superman, other aliens, weird alternate dimension creatures. It's not like the Snyder take was grounded.

We also get to see two versions of Batman hopping between universes next year in Flash, god willing. So it's not like Reeve's Batman is holding a monopoly on the live action Batman, and keeping it all grounded.

Look, I wouldn't mind a solo Batman story where he takes on the supernatural, but it's actually been fairly balanced.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Look, I wouldn't mind a solo Batman story where he takes on the supernatural, but it's actually been fairly balanced.

Though if we have to make a new mini, self-contained Batman universe every time we want to see him in a different genre/atmosphere we're not really doing any balancing. It's just making different Batmans. Batman should be versatile. One Batman.

Like TMNT. Mirage TMNT. You can plug them into aliens and outer space, supernatural stuff, urban ninja violence... and it all works, and it all makes them that much more interesting.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Like TMNT. Mirage TMNT. You can plug them into aliens and outer space, supernatural stuff, urban ninja violence... and it all works, and it all makes them that much more interesting.

Yet, outside of rare exceptions, no-one knows what to make of them, because, of it.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Sumac

Yet, outside of rare exceptions, no-one knows what to make of them, because, of it.

But that's their fault.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Though if we have to make a new mini, self-contained Batman universe every time we want to see him in a different genre/atmosphere we're not really doing any balancing. It's just making different Batmans. Batman should be versatile. One Batman.

Like TMNT. Mirage TMNT. You can plug them into aliens and outer space, supernatural stuff, urban ninja violence... and it all works, and it all makes them that much more interesting.

I don't see the need to have only one Batman. I like the variety. I love that we have one version leaning into the grounded, "Year One" take on the character, and another where he is saving the earth from an alien invasion and hopping between universes. It's great.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Batman that does it all, but this allows filmmakers to lean into their strengths and also more easily creates a cohesive world.

Anyway, first Joker was awesome. Loved the thick atmosphere and the bold take. I hope they nailed a better script this time, because there is massive potential and room for improvement. Again, Harley Quinn and the music angle don't excite me, but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. Especially if Joaquin is agreeing to it - the man is picky.

[Andrew NDB]

A couple weeks old news, but yes, Lady Gaga is confirmed as Harley Quinn in it:

https://www.darkhorizons.com/phoenix...-joker-sequel/

[Andrew NDB]

First photo of Gaga as Harley:

https://www.darkhorizons.com/first-p...-folie-a-deux/

[Cowabung-Gal]

My guess is, Harley will murder Sophie Dumond (the single mom next door whom Arthur fantasized being in a relationship with) out of pure jealousy since he really can’t stop thinking about her, even as he and Harley are growing closer.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

First photo of Gaga as Harley:

https://www.darkhorizons.com/first-p...-folie-a-deux/

Yeah...this image is giving me bad vibes.

[Andrew NDB]

Is this going to be the Rob Zombie version of Harley Quinn?

[AquaParade]

To me, “Joker” still felt like a movie about the character I recognize from the comics, despite the liberties it took. Not everyone felt that way, but to me it was 100% recognizable as a Joker story.

I’m actually wondering if I’ll feel the same way about this one or if it’s going to end up feeling completely like it’s own thing by branching out into music, Gaga, and general mental illness. Could still make for a good movie, but I’m a little tepid about this one. Idk if it will hit the same for me. My hype will be determined by the trailer, I suppose.

Pic looks good though. Is it just me or does Joaquin look chunky here? I know he lost a bunch of weight for the role but maybe he put some back on for other scenes.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

To me, “Joker” still felt like a movie about the character I recognize from the comics, despite the liberties it took. Not everyone felt that way, but to me it was 100% recognizable as a Joker story.

I’m actually wondering if I’ll feel the same way about this one or if it’s going to end up feeling completely like it’s own thing by branching out into music, Gaga, and general mental illness. Could still make for a good movie, but I’m a little tepid about this one. Idk if it will hit the same for me. My hype will be determined by the trailer, I suppose.

Pic looks good though. Is it just me or does Joaquin look chunky here? I know he lost a bunch of weight for the role but maybe he put some back on for other scenes.

In-universe, it could be Arkham is feeding him good. He would finally have a stable place with stable meals, and they wouldn't allow him to starve himself.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

In-universe, it could be Arkham is feeding him good. He would finally have a stable place with stable meals, and they wouldn't allow him to starve himself.

Good guess. The other pic they showed was of him being shaved in Arkham but he looked skinny. I could be imagining the weight in this new pic or maybe there is a passage of time.

Definitely leans into the Gacy vibes even harder if he ends up putting on weight though.

[Andrew NDB]

There might have been something to a Joker 2 where the Joker embraces his influence on people and somehow believably veers into "deranged criminal mastermind." If he meets Harley Quinn along the way, sure.

Now, singing and dancing, blah blah mental illness thing in Arkham Asylum? That doesn't really pique my interest.

[Sumac]

Eh, I like idea of a musical. In fact, some of my favorite stuff in Batman 89 were Joker's musical numbers. If they Philips will strike similar feeling it will be gold.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Sumac

Eh, I like idea of a musical. In fact, some of my favorite stuff in Batman 89 were Joker's musical numbers.

Oh, if it's stuff like that then that's fine. But if it's like the movie pauses and breaks the fourth wall to deliver musical dancing stuff that's going to be annoying.