Is it actually an improvement for Splinter to start out as Hamato Yoshi?

[Filespit]

For me it's always been more logical that Yoshi is mutated into rat-form, rather than a rat transform into humanshape. I've never bought the fact that he becomes an expert martial artist by either mimicing his owner or reading books about it. It's obviously part of whole parody idea of the original comic, so I take it for what it is, but I feel it would be more logical if he was human-turned-rat. It would also give more substance to his relationship with Saki/Shredder.

[Myko]

Here's an idea I had for an alternative timelines that keeps both "mutagen just makes the target more humanoid/evolved/bigger/strong" and is less silly in terms of a rat learning martial arts:

1. Yoshi and Splinter flee to New York and are forced to live in the sewers
2. An accident drops a canister of mutagen and a jar of turtles into the sewers. Splinter and the turtles are mutated into humanoids.
3. Splinter being a rat (short lifespan) and the turtles being turtles (long lifespan) age at much different rates.
4. Yoshi teaches Splinter and the turtles martial arts, but since the turtles are still young he mostly focuses on Splinter.
5. Saki finds them and kills Yoshi.
6. Splinter vows to train the turtles and take revenge on Saki.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by Myko

Here's an idea I had for an alternative timelines that keeps both "mutagen just makes the target more humanoid/evolved/bigger/strong" and is less silly in terms of a rat learning martial arts:

1. Yoshi and Splinter flee to New York and are forced to live in the sewers
2. An accident drops a canister of mutagen and a jar of turtles into the sewers. Splinter and the turtles are mutated into humanoids.
3. Splinter being a rat (short lifespan) and the turtles being turtles (long lifespan) age at much different rates.
4. Yoshi teaches Splinter and the turtles martial arts, but since the turtles are still young he mostly focuses on Splinter.
5. Saki finds them and kills Yoshi.
6. Splinter vows to train the turtles and take revenge on Saki.

Wow, that is actually a fantastic way of mixing both origins, and I'm surprised this never crossed my mind before.
It certainly would be interesting to see a mutated Splinter interact with Hamato Yoshi and get an insight into what their relationship was like.

The only time I remember such happening was in season 5 of the 2003 series, in which Splinter briefly met the ghost of Hamato Yoshi after they defeated Demon Shredder.
It was honestly a very touching moment from what I remember, and I'd totally be down for more Splinter and Yoshi interactions in future incarnations.

[ssjup81]

I know this discussion has gone on for a bit, but I would really like to share my opinion on this.

Now as some of you may or remember (I know, I've been awol for a while), I've always preferred the Hamato Yoshi -> Splinter story over the Pet Rat > Splinter scenario. Here's why...

One thing I had a hard time suspending my disbelief with was Splinter, as a pet rat, paying attention enough to his master to learn marital arts. I know rats are known to be intelligent creatures, but that seems a bit too unbelievable. I know...it's a series about mutant animals, but I still feel this way. It's sad that Splinter lost Hamato Yoshi and Tang Shen to Saki, but he just became a bigger rat. Seems it would be easier for him to readapt since animal instincts would've taken over, imo.

As for human to rat scenario....I just feel that it's more tragic. The rat to mutated rat is also tragic, but as mentioned, he's a rat who could probably readapt in the wild based on his natural instincts. Yoshi lost his wife to his friend turned enemy younger brother, he lost his home, and he lost the life he'd once lived. He was born a human and lived life as a human doing normal human things. His life pretty much collapsed and then he was turned into a rat...one of the most disliked animals on the planet and forced to hide in the sewers. This to me is just much sadder. I also like the fact that Splinter is Hamato Yoshi and is already a master and have that knowledge to pass down to the turtles which makes more sense to me.

So, yeah, this is why I feel that the human to rat method adds more dimensions to his character. The life of a pet rat isn't as vast as that of a human's and would require much more changing and adapting on the part of the human as opposed to the rat, imo.

Originally Posted by Myko

Here's an idea I had for an alternative timelines that keeps both "mutagen just makes the target more humanoid/evolved/bigger/strong" and is less silly in terms of a rat learning martial arts:

1. Yoshi and Splinter flee to New York and are forced to live in the sewers
2. An accident drops a canister of mutagen and a jar of turtles into the sewers. Splinter and the turtles are mutated into humanoids.
3. Splinter being a rat (short lifespan) and the turtles being turtles (long lifespan) age at much different rates.
4. Yoshi teaches Splinter and the turtles martial arts, but since the turtles are still young he mostly focuses on Splinter.
5. Saki finds them and kills Yoshi.
6. Splinter vows to train the turtles and take revenge on Saki.

Wow, now this actually works for me. Something where Hamato Yoshi is the one doing the teaching works for me.

[PApagreg]

Coming from a guy who's earliest TMNT media is the 90s movie and the 2k3 TV I prefer Splinter as Hamato Yoshi because the idea of a Rat learning ninjutsu from watching a guy train is super dumb.

Originally Posted by neatoman

Rise

• It generally creates hybrids, usually based on what the individual ate or wore.
• Some arbitrary additional effects may happen, there's no logical reason Ghost Bear gets phasing powers but he does.
• Draxum thinks of Yokai and mutants as interchangeable, so it's not always clear what we see are mutants and what are Yokai.

.

Keep in mind Rise mutagen is magic in origin so there is a chance for an addition of powers. Also Yokais are people who are non humans while Mutants who are humans(or animals in the turtles cases) who turned into Yokai(that's my theory).

Originally Posted by Myko

Here's an idea I had for an alternative timelines that keeps both "mutagen just makes the target more humanoid/evolved/bigger/strong" and is less silly in terms of a rat learning martial arts:

1. Yoshi and Splinter flee to New York and are forced to live in the sewers
2. An accident drops a canister of mutagen and a jar of turtles into the sewers. Splinter and the turtles are mutated into humanoids.
3. Splinter being a rat (short lifespan) and the turtles being turtles (long lifespan) age at much different rates.
4. Yoshi teaches Splinter and the turtles martial arts, but since the turtles are still young he mostly focuses on Splinter.
5. Saki finds them and kills Yoshi.
6. Splinter vows to train the turtles and take revenge on Saki.

You know I like this, the idea of a Hamato Yoshi teaching a mutated Splinter is something that could be explored.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by PApagreg

Keep in mind Rise mutagen is magic in origin so there is a chance for an addition of powers. Also Yokais are people who are non humans while Mutants who are humans(or animals in the turtles cases) who turned into Yokai(that's my theory).

We don't really know where the mutagen came from or who actually made it. All we know is that Draxum had it when he mutated the turtles, had not used it until he turned that guy into a fish and that he seemingly had a limited supply.

[PApagreg]

Originally Posted by neatoman

We don't really know where the mutagen came from or who actually made it. All we know is that Draxum had it when he mutated the turtles, had not used it until he turned that guy into a fish and that he seemingly had a limited supply.

Umm its heavily implied that Draxum made it since

A. He is a warrior alchemist


B. No one else seems to have it but him.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by PApagreg

Umm its heavily implied that Draxum made it since

A. He is a warrior alchemist


B. No one else seems to have it but him.

Then why didn't he have any for 15 years?

[PApagreg]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Then why didn't he have any for 15 years?

...Because his lab was destroyed by Splinter/Hamatao Yoshi/Lou Jitsu, also as for why he still have some now is because he released the Oozesqterous.

[Leo656]

Whenever I read people describe anything that happens on "Rise", it reads like TMNT MadLibs, with the blanks filled in by a very young child.

[PApagreg]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Whenever I read people describe anything that happens on "Rise", it reads like TMNT MadLibs, with the blanks filled in by a very young child.

So just like TMNT in general?

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by PApagreg

...Because his lab was destroyed by Splinter/Hamatao Yoshi/Lou Jitsu, also as for why he still have some now is because he released the Oozesqterous.

OK

Originally Posted by PApagreg

So just like TMNT in general?

Nah.

[PApagreg]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Nah.

TMNT as in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, how is the title alone not madlibs?

Heck this franchise had two iterations where evil mutated pizzas was a thing.

[Leo656]

Aaaaaaand that's a "good" thing becaaaaaauuuuuuse....?

There's always a line. Wrestling is inherently stupid (As a wrestler, I can say that). Objectively, watching two people pretend to fight when you know full well that's it's all for fun is silly. But there's a willing suspension of disbelief, and that's okay.

Y'know what's not okay? Things like a wrestling mummy. Or Hulk Hogan knocking a guy off the roof of an arena, only for that guy to come back unscathed 20 minutes later with zero explanation and beat Hogan for the World title. Or a guy wrestling "The Invisible Man". Or a guy who beats his opponents by putting a "Voodoo Curse" on them. And so on.

All of those things have happened, they're televised and documented. MOST people, though, understand that they're terrible, even the very same people who wrote them. Those people have all since apologized, numerous times. "Yeah, that was terrible. We were drunk."

The fact that you have a "silly" premise, does not mean that all things Can or Should be overwhelmingly "silly" by extension. There's ALWAYS a line, and the wisdom is knowing when the f*ck to pull back and exercise some goddamn restraint.

There's "Stupid", and then there's "Stoooooooooooooopid."

I feel like TMNT can be the former, without ever approaching the latter.

[PApagreg]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Aaaaaaand that's a "good" thing becaaaaaauuuuuuse....?

Literally never said it was a good thing.

Originally Posted by Leo656

There's "Stupid", and then there's "Stoooooooooooooopid."

I feel like TMNT can be the former, without ever approaching the latter.

It's fine that you feel that way but at this point TMNT not only approached the latter but fused together with it like some kind of Cronenberg abomination more times than being close to the former

Examples like evil mutated pizzas include but not limited

Mutated Street Punks who are a Rhinoceros and Warthog

Squid alien operating a humanoid robot

Fly Scientist that makes robotic rat catchers

Floridan Cajun Alligator

Rockabilly Teenagers from Outer Space

Ninja dressed like a cheese grater with a purple cloak

Mobsters who kidnap and tickle women

Garbageman who kidnaps homeless people

A Nanobot who thinks a scientist and a thief are his parents

A squid like alien who is piloting a humanoid robot but this time he is the ninja dressed like a cheese grater

Humanoid Alien Dinosaurs

A civilization full of winged people

The Title characters turning into dragons

Scientist who is cut up so much he becomes a brain

Ninjas representing the the elements of Air Fire Water Earth and Metal

A Brazilian mutant fish with robot legs

A being that is made up of ooze and exposed guts

Ice Cream Kitty

Dream Beavers

Man who controls rats

A professor ape with psychic powers

Mutated Wasps that controls people

Whatever this thing is



Time Traveling Valley Girl

Interdimensional Wish Granting Genie

And that's just scratching the surface but Warrior Alchemist that's just TOO silly and straight out of Madlibs created by a very young child

[Hockey Boy]

“You took EVERYTHING from me!”
“I don’t even know who you are!”
This is the entire problem with Pet Rat Splinter tbh

[Leo656]

That's a very interesting point!

Imagine if at the end of the first movie, instead of Shredder's big dramatic mask removal accompanied by the swelling score... he just started pissing down his leg laughing and said "Wait, wait... are you f*cking KIDDING me right now?"

It would have taken the piss out of the movie, sure; but it also would be the exact appropriate emotional response to someone's pet being out to kill you on account of some sh*t you did to their owner two decades earlier.

[Hockey Boy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

That's a very interesting point!

Imagine if at the end of the first movie, instead of Shredder's big dramatic mask removal accompanied by the swelling score... he just started pissing down his leg laughing and said "Wait, wait... are you f*cking KIDDING me right now?"

It would have taken the piss out of the movie, sure; but it also would be the exact appropriate emotional response to someone's pet being out to kill you on account of some sh*t you did to their owner two decades earlier.

Yeah, the movies a classic still but I gotta admit -I WILL FINISH WHAT I BEGAN WITH YOUR EAR!- is just....so ridiculous

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by Hockey Boy

?You took EVERYTHING from me!?
?I don?t even know who you are!?
This is the entire problem with Pet Rat Splinter tbh

You know, this sums up the problem with the whole Rat > Splinter thing. It's true that Splinter would feel this way, but Saki would have no real reason to care or even know of his existence. Him as Yoshi creates more of a connection between the two characters and can get you more invested in their feud and everything that caused it in the first place.

Originally Posted by Leo656

That's a very interesting point!

Imagine if at the end of the first movie, instead of Shredder's big dramatic mask removal accompanied by the swelling score... he just started pissing down his leg laughing and said "Wait, wait... are you f*cking KIDDING me right now?"

I just thinking this after reading the previous post. This actually would've made more sense realistically...unless we go with cray-cray 2012 Shredder. "You're connected to Hamato Yoshi! I will kill you!" Meh, 2012 Shredder probably would've thought he was Yoshi by default in some convoluted way as far gone as his mind was.

Originally Posted by Hockey Boy

Yeah, the movies a classic still but I gotta admit -I WILL FINISH WHAT I BEGAN WITH YOUR EAR!- is just....so ridiculous

Yeah, it is pretty silly looking back. Seriously, I don't think any average person would remember slicing a rat's ear...oh wait, didn't pet rat Splinter give him the scar which made him slice at his ear when swinging his sword? Just recalled it...but either way, Shredder probably wouldn't have really thought much of him and had no real reason to brood for 20 years over slicing off a rat's ear that scratched him. lol

[Wingnut II]

Originally Posted by PApagreg

Literally never said it was a good thing.




It's fine that you feel that way but at this point TMNT not only approached the latter but fused together with it like some kind of Cronenberg abomination more times than being close to the former

Examples like evil mutated pizzas include but not limited

Mutated Street Punks who are a Rhinoceros and Warthog

Squid alien operating a humanoid robot

Fly Scientist that makes robotic rat catchers

Floridan Cajun Alligator

Rockabilly Teenagers from Outer Space

Ninja dressed like a cheese grater with a purple cloak

Mobsters who kidnap and tickle women

Garbageman who kidnaps homeless people

A Nanobot who thinks a scientist and a thief are his parents

A squid like alien who is piloting a humanoid robot but this time he is the ninja dressed like a cheese grater

Humanoid Alien Dinosaurs

A civilization full of winged people

The Title characters turning into dragons

Scientist who is cut up so much he becomes a brain

Ninjas representing the the elements of Air Fire Water Earth and Metal

A Brazilian mutant fish with robot legs

A being that is made up of ooze and exposed guts

Ice Cream Kitty

Dream Beavers

Man who controls rats

A professor ape with psychic powers

Mutated Wasps that controls people

Whatever this thing is

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20151120143242

Time Traveling Valley Girl

Interdimensional Wish Granting Genie

And that's just scratching the surface but Warrior Alchemist that's just TOO silly and straight out of Madlibs created by a very young child

That "thing" is named Justin, people. He's a chimera.