Romance in Tmnt

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Agree it definitely needs something to put it into a higher rating, at least now and then for goodness sakes. Is a love scene the way... eh I dunno, I mean April and Casey could jump back into the territory of not focusing on the Turtles enough by needing to focus enough on them to make seeing that even matter.

I mean, you could do the realistic CGI Raph/Allopex sex scene and it will be immediately not for kids AND the world can be horrified that a movie went there. (I don't recommend going the Shape of Water level of going there quite yet. lol)

On second thought however, it's my mom who goes sees these with me, I'd rather avoid that awkwardness. LOL


No Leo? Not Mr. Swooning over Lotus, was pretended by the audience to have a thing for Karai but then Nick made it true, got with that super powered Native lady (whose name escapes me at the moment -- edit: Radical?)... I mean, I dunno, butt kicking traits aside, he's the one guy among them who is surrounded by the type he historically tends to go for since they're all human.

Now, do I want to see it happen? Not really. But some woman turning his head is fine, and knowing my fave thinks us human women aren't gross is also totally fine. lol

^^^ The Leo/Karai thing always bugged me. It's nothing more than a way to relate the 2 to each other. 2 ninja, highly trained and each very disciplined. Let's create an implied/possible flirtation?

Nope. It's just lazy to write them that way, especially in the more mature/serious TMNT stuff. I think Leo is, or at least should be, too disciplined for love/romance.

What really cheeses me off is the fact of the whole Donnie/April thing in 2012. Ugh!

Now, Mikey. He's the 1 turtle throughout TMNT history that is seen as fawning over ladies but rarely got a love life. I dunno, because he's fun-loving and caring, love/romance could/should work for him.

At the end of the day, Raph needs a lady to calm his ass down. The rest, meh. I dunno!

[Leo656]

I think Leo would definitely have romantic urges, it just seems that he's mostly attracted to problem cases. Which would make "settling down" with anyone difficult.

It's odd that the Nick cartoon made Donnie's crush on April so prevalent, because he's the one I can't see having much interest or attraction just in general. Like, I'm not convinced "asexual" is a real thing (genuinely feels more like a buzzword created by people who can't get laid, not gonna lie), but Donnie's definitely the one closest to it.

The others, though? I can see them as being resigned to the fact that most females wouldn't want them BUT perfectly capable of attraction and willing to Go There with the right "person" if it ever came up.

They're the very definition of "incels"; it's not that they wouldn't WANNA do it, they just figure nobody'd want 'em. BUT, that doesn't mean that one day they couldn't be pleasantly surprised by someone, either.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

Nope. It's just lazy to write them that way, especially in the more mature/serious TMNT stuff. I think Leo is, or at least should be, too disciplined for love/romance.

Ahhhhhhh, that's a crock'a sh*t. The "too disciplined for romance" thing is, again, something people who can't get laid espouse. "I don't think about sex, I'm too busy working out." I known guys like that. Never lasts. When they can finally get some, that "discipline" of theirs falls by the wayside. Seen it a million times. P*ssy Trumps Everything Else, mang.

Especially if it's later on in the story, after Shredder's done away with and things have "calmed down" in their lives. The guy's just gonna live in the gym doing push-ups and polishing his swords forever until the day he dies? Naaaaaaaaaaaah, no way, man. Nobody acts like that on purpose. Everyone yearns for connection, and Hormones aren't something you just turn off.

Leo might be a Supreme Warrior Badass, but he'd definitely want some P. He just don't think he's gonna get any so he doesn't make it a priority, that's all. If it came up? Game On. Dude ain't a robot.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Ahhhhhhh, that's a crock'a sh*t. The "too disciplined for romance" thing is, again, something people who can't get laid espouse. "I don't think about sex, I'm too busy working out." I known guys like that. Never lasts. When they can finally get some, that "discipline" of theirs falls by the wayside. Seen it a million times. P*ssy Trumps Everything Else, mang.

Especially if it's later on in the story, after Shredder's done away with and things have "calmed down" in their lives. The guy's just gonna live in the gym doing push-ups and polishing his swords forever until the day he dies? Naaaaaaaaaaaah, no way, man. Nobody acts like that on purpose. Everyone yearns for connection, and Hormones aren't something you just turn off.

Leo might be a Supreme Warrior Badass, but he'd definitely want some P. He just don't think he's gonna get any so he doesn't make it a priority, that's all. If it came up? Game On. Dude ain't a robot.

^^^^ That sounded different in my head than what I actually typed. I dont mean Leo should be celibate, hell look at Bruce... how many women has he had? I just meant I think he'd be the least likely to find or have romance because of his focus.

There could be an iteration where he's so obsessively Bushido and monk-like that he forgoes his animalistic needs but I dunno. Maybe if he's the Last Ronin.

You think Bruce in DKR is concerned with sex? Not one bit... that old man's got a war to fight.

[Leo656]

Yeah but Bruce Wayne is a f*cking emo little punk. He also isn't real, but if he were, he'd be a horrible example to use for... well, just about anything, really.

I look at it like this: Bruce Lee was a Supreme Warrior Badass. He also pulled down more trim than George Clooney. Just because you spend 23 hours a day practicing your split kick doesn't mean you can't devote that other hour a day to some "Bow-chicka-bow-wooooooooowwwwwwww", nah'mean?

I'd say the closest thing we could compare the TMNT to, really, would be Olympic athletes. They're almost certainly Olympic-level in their skills and level of training. So one would figure that the amount of devotion to training and "focus" would be similar. At every Olympics, the Olympic Village is a full-blown Bacchanal full of alcohol, cocaine, and lots and lots and lots and lots and LOTS of sex. So again, just because these people are "supremely focused and disciplined" doesn't mean they also won't jump in bed with anything that moves when the opportunity presents itself.

I can't see the Turtles being any different. They're only celibate because an opportunity hasn't presented itself. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

Except Raph when he was with Ninjara. A girl with jugs like that, I doubt they spent all their time sitting around playing Scrabble every night. So we know that at least in one canon, at least ONE of them's gotten laid. Although I think it was hinted at with Mikey in both Image and Mirage as well, but I'm fuzzy on that.

EDIT: Wait, yeah, Mikey definitely nailed the chick in Vol. 4, didn't he?

[IndigoErth]

Mikey and the alien dino princess. (I'm sure Kala also would have gone for it given a chance. lol) I think it was rather implied about Leo and Radical? Too bad Jhanna was so short lived and she and Donnie didn't actually get to have a thing.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Yeah but Bruce Wayne is a f*cking emo little punk. He also isn't real, but if he were, he'd be a horrible example to use for... well, just about anything, really.

I look at it like this: Bruce Lee was a Supreme Warrior Badass. He also pulled down more trim than George Clooney. Just because you spend 23 hours a day practicing your split kick doesn't mean you can't devote that other hour a day to some "Bow-chicka-bow-wooooooooowwwwwwww", nah'mean?

I'd say the closest thing we could compare the TMNT to, really, would be Olympic athletes. They're almost certainly Olympic-level in their skills and level of training. So one would figure that the amount of devotion to training and "focus" would be similar. At every Olympics, the Olympic Village is a full-blown Bacchanal full of alcohol, cocaine, and lots and lots and lots and lots and LOTS of sex. So again, just because these people are "supremely focused and disciplined" doesn't mean they also won't jump in bed with anything that moves when the opportunity presents itself.

I can't see the Turtles being any different. They're only celibate because an opportunity hasn't presented itself. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

Except Raph when he was with Ninjara. A girl with jugs like that, I doubt they spent all their time sitting around playing Scrabble every night. So we know that at least in one canon, at least ONE of them's gotten laid. Although I think it was hinted at with Mikey in both Image and Mirage as well, but I'm fuzzy on that.

EDIT: Wait, yeah, Mikey definitely nailed the chick in Vol. 4, didn't he?

Mike has gotten lucky with Horridus in Volume 3, and the Regenta Seri in Volume 4. Possibly even fathered kids in Volume 4... there was discussion that the eggs weren't actually his.

Those are the only instances I've ever seen romance done well in TMNT, of ANY iteration. Along with Raph and Ninjara in Archie, I guess. I've never read it all, but I take the word of you guys who vouch for it.

Although I suppose you could count Raph's tension with Pimiko in Volume 3 as hinting at something more, I dunno.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Mike has gotten lucky with Horridus in Volume 3, and the Regenta Seri in Volume 4. Possibly even fathered kids in Volume 4... there was discussion that the eggs weren't actually his.

Those are the only instances I've ever seen romance done well in TMNT, of ANY iteration. Along with Raph and Ninjara in Archie, I guess. I've never read it all, but I take the word of you guys who vouch for it.

Although I suppose you could count Raph's tension with Pimiko in Volume 3 as hinting at something more, I dunno.

Wait! Didn't Mikey end up adopting Shadow at one point too? A little fuzzy on that as the later volumes dont stick with me like Vol. 1 does.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Mike has gotten lucky with Horridus in Volume 3, and the Regenta Seri in Volume 4. Possibly even fathered kids in Volume 4... there was discussion that the eggs weren't actually his.

Those are the only instances I've ever seen romance done well in TMNT, of ANY iteration. Along with Raph and Ninjara in Archie, I guess. I've never read it all, but I take the word of you guys who vouch for it.

Although I suppose you could count Raph's tension with Pimiko in Volume 3 as hinting at something more, I dunno.

Ohhhhhhh right, right. Didn't Regenta try and baby-trap him, or something?

I'm always a bit fuzzy on the stuff in Vol. 4. I don't take narcotic drugs, so when I have trouble falling asleep, I just grab an issue of Vol. 4 whereas most people would take an Ambien. Works like a charm!

Conversely, when I feel like going all Patrick Bateman on people, I re-read April's "Secret Origin" issue and walk the streets at night pretending everyone I see is Peter Laird.

.....Jesus, what the f*ck is with we Irish and dark humor?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Ohhhhhhh right, right. Didn't Regenta try and baby-trap him, or something?

I'm always a bit fuzzy on the stuff in Vol. 4. I don't take narcotic drugs, so when I have trouble falling asleep, I just grab an issue of Vol. 4 whereas most people would take an Ambien. Works like a charm!

He ended up thrown in prison and rescued by Triceratons. Last we saw, he's pretty pissed at the Regenta and her people; he's even ready to go full Raphael on them.

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

Wait! Didn't Mikey end up adopting Shadow at one point too? A little fuzzy on that as the later volumes dont stick with me like Vol. 1 does.

Not adopting. He just bonds the most with Shadow, out of the four Turtles. Although some of the Tales in Volume 2 tried to pair Shadow more often with her Uncle Raph... but those stories usually sucked (IMO).

[Leo656]

Ah, yeah, I remember some of that, but like I said, it's all a blur.

Too many divergent plots in that book (Vol. 4). I know it was "the story Laird wanted to tell" but splitting the guys up and subsequently having five or six parallel subplots in one ongoing book was terrible. Obviously they couldn't do four concurrent solo series for each Turtle, but that's the only way that those stories could ever have been told properly within a comic book format. But that was just a terrible book as far as pacing, format, etc. Especially since sometimes issues would come out months apart; by the time you get the new one, you can't even remember what happened last time. Nothing about that book worked at all. Even if you like the stories within, the execution was terrible by default.

You know what I would've done with that exact same story (or stories)? A novel, alternating chapters between each Turtle's subplot, like how Stephen King did "The Stand". THAT could have worked pretty well. Maybe it would've been "Dry" and "Too highbrow" of a concept to do a giant, 1000-page TMNT novel, but again, as far as being a story presented within a comic book, utilizing that medium's format and storytelling style, Vol. 4 is AWFUL.

Maybe not "awful" as a story itself, but definitely "awful" as a comic book.

Like, it's obvious that Laird isn't good at writing comics. Which is NOT to call him a "bad writer". He's not a bad storyteller, but it's obvious that Kevin was "the comic book guy", while I do believe I heard that Laird always had aspirations to be a novelist. It shows! He has interesting ideas but just being a "good writer" doesn't mean you know how to apply your stories to a serialized comic book format. It's not like any other kind of writing.

Point of fact, Mario Puzo - the Godfather guy - loved comic books, and after he got famous he used his "pull" to try and get a gig writing one. He gave up. Said it was "far too difficult", the hardest writing job he ever attempted. Said flat-out that nothing he knew from "regular" writing applied and that he'd rather just not force something that wasn't gonna work.

Knowing that, it makes sense why Laird can be a decent writer but bad at writing comic books. His ideas are perhaps a little "too big", or at least he doesn't know how to balance things properly. "I wanna split the guys up and follow each of them on their own journey, plus April, Casey, etc." Wow, how many pages you think you got per issue, there, Chief? Stuff like that never, ever works. And even when each Turtle got their own mini-series to try and speed things up a little, it really didn't resolve anything significantly.

I also heard he was booking some of it on the fly and never really fleshed out any kind of ending, which is... Siiiiiiigh. I don't know. Again, that's the opposite of how you're supposed to do these things.

I respect his ambition and commitment to doing His Story, but it's a commercial medium. Tales Vol. 2 had some duds but as a comic book? Oooof. 100x better and more of what a TMNT comic "should be", compared to Vol. 4. You can just tell that those other guys understand how to write for comics, is all.

I'm not trying to be overly harsh, just explaining. You can say, "I liked Vol. 4" and I can't argue that even though I did not like it. If you enjoyed it, then you enjoyed it. But strictly as "a comic book", you can't say it's "good" because it really is not, technically. The story presented within was not adequate for the limitations of an ongoing comic book. Forget the art, forget whatever, just... FIVE OR SIX concurrent subplots. In one book. A book that only came out sometimes once every three or four months. Which cost twice as much as every other book that came out during that time period.

That's bad. That is objectively a very poor use of resources, even if you like the story.

To be clear, I've read WAY worse comic books, as in worse writing, worse ideas, etc. (Although that sh*t with April is pretty goddamn indefensible no matter what drugs you're on). But Vol. 4 disappointed because it simply wasn't right for the format. That's all I'm saying.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

You know what I would've done with that exact same story (or stories)? A novel, alternating chapters between each Turtle's subplot, like how Stephen King did "The Stand". THAT could have worked pretty well. Maybe it would've been "Dry" and "Too highbrow" of a concept to do a giant, 1000-page TMNT novel, but again, as far as being a story presented within a comic book, utilizing that medium's format and storytelling style, Vol. 4 is AWFUL.

Knowing that, it makes sense why Laird can be a decent writer but bad at writing comic books. His ideas are perhaps a little "too big", or at least he doesn't know how to balance things properly. "I wanna split the guys up and follow each of them on their own journey, plus April, Casey, etc." Wow, how many pages you think you got per issue, there, Chief? Stuff like that never, ever works. And even when each Turtle got their own mini-series to try and speed things up a little, it really didn't resolve anything significantly.

It worked in City at War! Except it was the Turtles, Splinter, Casey, and April, and the Turtles were together.

And nobody really cared about April's storyline.

I love the idea of a TMNT book tracking four different storylines for a year or more on end, and eventually pulling the four brothers back into a big plot development or "event" at the end of it; and then seeing them go their separate ways again.

But that's NOT what Volume 4 was.

[Leo656]

I mean, "decompressed storytelling" is perfectly within "the rules", it's just that you have to present a story that fits within the framework you're utilizing. Comics aren't necessarily the place for it. Things have to happen, eventually.

If you went to a "real" comic book publisher and said, "I wanna do a book with 5 or 6 main characters, they don't interact much and all their plots run parallel but don't intersect," you're out the door. You can't DO things like that.

[Torterra]

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

Wait! Didn't Mikey end up adopting Shadow at one point too? A little fuzzy on that as the later volumes dont stick with me like Vol. 1 does.

If I remember right I think Mikey just babysitting her and Casey was the one who adopted Shadow and he was raising her with April.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I mean, "decompressed storytelling" is perfectly within "the rules", it's just that you have to present a story that fits within the framework you're utilizing. Comics aren't necessarily the place for it. Things have to happen, eventually.

If you went to a "real" comic book publisher and said, "I wanna do a book with 5 or 6 main characters, they don't interact much and all their plots run parallel but don't intersect," you're out the door. You can't DO things like that.

If more things had HAPPENED, and the things that did happen didn't happen (cockroaches. never forget, never forgive), the parallel storylines with occasional intersections wouldn't have been a problem.

[Leo656]

"Occasional intersections" is being extremely generous, don't you think?

Tales Vol. 2 should have been Mirage Vol. 4. That's It, That's All.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

"Occasional intersections" is being extremely generous, don't you think?

Tales Vol. 2 should have been Mirage Vol. 4. That's It, That's All.

Not even Tales Volume 2 was very good. Not as an overall series, at least.

[Leo656]

It was disjointed, sure, and not every story was a Home Run, but it felt WAY more like what a person reading a TMNT comic should expect to see when they pick it up. "Turtles get together and fight bad guys. You get some stuff that fills in the blanks between older stories." That's all you needed. Vol. 4 was overdone and pretentious, as the main title, not to mention meandering. At least in Tales Vol. 2, Stuff Happened, and not only occasionally. Tales engaged the reader; Vol. 4 asked the reader to go on a journey that had no destination and didn't actually go anywhere. There was no active engagement at all. Splinter died, and it was "So what?" That's terrible, man.

You're just pissy because Tales made Cudley "Hard Canon", because you can't accept the fact that everybody loves Cudley except you, you goddamn philistine. Get Over It!

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

It was disjointed, sure, and not every story was a Home Run, but it felt WAY more like what a person reading a TMNT comic should expect to see when they pick it up. "Turtles get together and fight bad guys. You get some stuff that fills in the blanks between older stories." That's all you needed. Vol. 4 was overdone and pretentious, as the main title, not to mention meandering. At least in Tales Vol. 2, Stuff Happened, and not only occasionally. Tales engaged the reader; Vol. 4 asked the reader to go on a journey that had no destination and didn't actually go anywhere. There was no active engagement at all. Splinter died, and it was "So what?" That's terrible, man.

You're just pissy because Tales made Cudley "Hard Canon", because you can't accept the fact that everybody loves Cudley except you, you goddamn philistine. Get Over It!

Fvck Cudley.

Hey, Splinter dying was great. That was the highlight of Volume 4, very well done...

[Leo656]

"Hmm, think I'll get me a drink and aaahhhhhhhhh F*CK, I'm dead."

Pppppppbbbbbbbbbbbth. Such a noble and fitting end to an iconic and beloved character. "Awwwww, but it's so humble! So poignant! So 'slice of life'! People die unceremoniously with no fanfare all the time!"

Not when you're asking people to pay $4 for the "privilege" of watching it, they don't. Wet fart. Again, I get "slice of life", I get that the entire point of the book was to "subvert expectations" and be extremely understated. But that is NOT how you "comic book".

I'm not saying you have to go full-blown "Pa Kent got killed by Brainiac", that was awful, too, from the opposite direction. I'm just saying, in a commercial medium where the entire point is not ONLY to tell stories, but to entertain people, that was maybe not the worst possible choice in how to kill of Splinter... but it WAS a very bad way to do it.

I mean, have you ever tried explaining his death to someone who has no idea about it? I have. It never plays well.

"He DIED? How?!"
"He, uh... he kinda keeled over by the fridge while nobody was home."
".......Are you f*cking kidding me?"
"I wish I was, man."

Was it "real"? Was it the kinda thing that happens every day? Can readers relate to it? Sure. Is that the kinda thing people pay $4 to see? Absolutely not. Very bad, borderline indefensible choice. You could put 25 death scenes in a hat, pull one at random, and any one of them would likely be better than "He stroked out while nobody was home."

It's like those people who say, "I love it in super-hero comics when the super-heroes don't fight bad guys, they make quips about their fashion sense and hang out getting coffee." Like CHRIST, stop reading comic books, you people. People don't pay money to watch people scratch their ass, take that nonsense and cram it.

Splinter's death was a big pile of Nothing. Literally Nothing. Y'know what's better than "Nothing"? ANYTHING!

Like, I could in theory book a match for myself where I went out, grabbed a guy in an armbar, and had him submit in less than 15 seconds. Because "That's real, that's Real Life," right? Except not one person in the audience paid their hard-earned money to see that, therefore it does not matter one bit if it's "Real Life", I just cheated my audience. I could have done anything else, I could have put on a spectacle and actually told a story and given people something to cheer over... but I didn't. I purposely chose to cheat them. "Because It's Real." I'd never get booked again if I did that sh*t, I'd get scolded and fired and sent home without pay. And rightfully so. Because you DON'T cheat your audience when you have any other option available to you.

People trust you to entertain them and take them on a journey, you don't give them blue balls and then say "Well, that's just how sh*t happens."

I literally rolled my eyes, slapped the comic down on the bed and said "Jesus, I HATE this f*cking book." Not the last time - April's bullsh*t was worse, but still. If I wanted to watch Peter Laird masturbate - and I don't - but if I did want to, I'd break into his house. Instead, I paid him $4 an issue for five years and there wasn't even a "Money Shot" to justify it all.

Again, his "style" is not at all fit for comic books. Which does not mean he is a "bad writer". It means that he knows how to tell stories, but not necessarily how to entertain people, and comic books, like wrestling, are an amalgamation of those two things.

His style is meant for prose. He would do very, very well in that medium, and some of his ideas that played horribly in comics would likely read much, much better as part of a book than a comic. His writing is entirely too "small" for action-oriented comic books.
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Cudley is a Treasure. You just don't know what's good! He single-handedly (single-headedly? ) holds the entire TMNT Multiverse together and he does it with style. I will forever be angry that I did not invent "Flying Cow Head that effortlessly traverses Time and Space and Parallel Dimensions" as a character/plot device.

And so're you! You're jealous, that's what it is! You didn't think of it, so you're squeezing sour grapes! Don't piss down my leg and tell me it's rainin', pal!