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Old 07-23-2020, 08:43 AM   #61
CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
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"Hmm, think I'll get me a drink and aaahhhhhhhhh F*CK, I'm dead."

Pppppppbbbbbbbbbbbth. Such a noble and fitting end to an iconic and beloved character. "Awwwww, but it's so humble! So poignant! So 'slice of life'! People die unceremoniously with no fanfare all the time!"

Not when you're asking people to pay $4 for the "privilege" of watching it, they don't. Wet fart. Again, I get "slice of life", I get that the entire point of the book was to "subvert expectations" and be extremely understated. But that is NOT how you "comic book".

I'm not saying you have to go full-blown "Pa Kent got killed by Brainiac", that was awful, too, from the opposite direction. I'm just saying, in a commercial medium where the entire point is not ONLY to tell stories, but to entertain people, that was maybe not the worst possible choice in how to kill of Splinter... but it WAS a very bad way to do it.

I mean, have you ever tried explaining his death to someone who has no idea about it? I have. It never plays well.

"He DIED? How?!"
"He, uh... he kinda keeled over by the fridge while nobody was home."
".......Are you f*cking kidding me?"
"I wish I was, man."

Was it "real"? Was it the kinda thing that happens every day? Can readers relate to it? Sure. Is that the kinda thing people pay $4 to see? Absolutely not. Very bad, borderline indefensible choice. You could put 25 death scenes in a hat, pull one at random, and any one of them would likely be better than "He stroked out while nobody was home."

It's like those people who say, "I love it in super-hero comics when the super-heroes don't fight bad guys, they make quips about their fashion sense and hang out getting coffee." Like CHRIST, stop reading comic books, you people. People don't pay money to watch people scratch their ass, take that nonsense and cram it.

Splinter's death was a big pile of Nothing. Literally Nothing. Y'know what's better than "Nothing"? ANYTHING!

Like, I could in theory book a match for myself where I went out, grabbed a guy in an armbar, and had him submit in less than 15 seconds. Because "That's real, that's Real Life," right? Except not one person in the audience paid their hard-earned money to see that, therefore it does not matter one bit if it's "Real Life", I just cheated my audience. I could have done anything else, I could have put on a spectacle and actually told a story and given people something to cheer over... but I didn't. I purposely chose to cheat them. "Because It's Real." I'd never get booked again if I did that sh*t, I'd get scolded and fired and sent home without pay. And rightfully so. Because you DON'T cheat your audience when you have any other option available to you.

People trust you to entertain them and take them on a journey, you don't give them blue balls and then say "Well, that's just how sh*t happens."

I literally rolled my eyes, slapped the comic down on the bed and said "Jesus, I HATE this f*cking book." Not the last time - April's bullsh*t was worse, but still. If I wanted to watch Peter Laird masturbate - and I don't - but if I did want to, I'd break into his house. Instead, I paid him $4 an issue for five years and there wasn't even a "Money Shot" to justify it all.

Again, his "style" is not at all fit for comic books. Which does not mean he is a "bad writer". It means that he knows how to tell stories, but not necessarily how to entertain people, and comic books, like wrestling, are an amalgamation of those two things.

His style is meant for prose. He would do very, very well in that medium, and some of his ideas that played horribly in comics would likely read much, much better as part of a book than a comic. His writing is entirely too "small" for action-oriented comic books.
--------------

Cudley is a Treasure. You just don't know what's good! He single-handedly (single-headedly? ) holds the entire TMNT Multiverse together and he does it with style. I will forever be angry that I did not invent "Flying Cow Head that effortlessly traverses Time and Space and Parallel Dimensions" as a character/plot device.

And so're you! You're jealous, that's what it is! You didn't think of it, so you're squeezing sour grapes! Don't piss down my leg and tell me it's rainin', pal!
You LIKE Cudley the fvcking Cowsteak and you HATE Splinter's poignant death in Volume 4?

You've taken too many blows to the head, my man.
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Old 07-23-2020, 10:15 AM   #62
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You LIKE Cudley the fvcking Cowsteak and you HATE Splinter's poignant death in Volume 4?

You've taken too many blows to the head, my man.
I agree with Leo here, CKD. Like, I know Mirage is the master of slice o' life and introspection and low-key storytelling BUT to have your franchise's YODA die so unceremoniously. WTF. You know who died by the fridge? Spencer Tracy after a hot night of action with Kate Hepburn. Splinter's not Spencer Tracy. Sorry!

Splinter deserved better, poignant or not!
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Old 07-23-2020, 11:11 AM   #63
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I agree with Leo here, CKD. Like, I know Mirage is the master of slice o' life and introspection and low-key storytelling BUT to have your franchise's YODA die so unceremoniously. WTF. You know who died by the fridge? Spencer Tracy after a hot night of action with Kate Hepburn. Splinter's not Spencer Tracy. Sorry!

Splinter deserved better, poignant or not!
You're a couple of damn Philistines, the both of you.
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Old 07-23-2020, 11:32 AM   #64
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You know who died by the fridge? Spencer Tracy after a hot night of action with Kate Hepburn. !
I'm sad I was not drinking coffee at the moment I read this because the spit-take would've been epic. Damn it!
----------

I'm a huge fan of Poignant, but comics (or at least ones which ostensibly lean on action) shouldn't be Boring or Understated, is all. Gotta give people the ol' Razzmatazz, sometimes.

Again, there was way worse things, that just felt like some "We got all the original Star Wars actors back, let's not put 'em in one scene together" type of misreading the audience. But like I said, in another medium? The same exact scene might've played much better for me. Lord knows my scribblings would make a lousy comic book, but they're not designed for that medium. Like, I like drama quite a lot, but people generally expect something with a bit more "sizzle" from a TMNT book than what many of the moments in Vol. 4 provided. It was so heavy on Drama and light on Action, that moments that should have been a lot more impactful just don't land quite like they should. And I do feel that an "event" like Splinter's death needed a bit more "Oomph" for a comic book. He's just too important a character. Like, I felt for the Turtles, later, when they found out about it, but in the moment, "watching" it happen and seeing Splinter keel over? I just didn't feel it. I wanted to, it just didn't land on the bullseye, for me.

Buuuuuuut maybe if I'd read that same scene in prose, with a bunch of descriptive text about what was going on in Splinter's head as it happened and in the moment, it would be more immersive and engaging and impactful. I'll totally allow for that possibility. As-presented (and with That Art) it just came off as... flat.

But again, that's definitely NOT to say it needed to be some Pa Kent/Brainiac stuff, either, because that by contrast was OVER-done. Neither of those "Iconic Father Deaths" hit the sweet spot for me, due to being presented as Way Too Big or Way Too Small for the feeling they were trying to instill. In both cases, the writers (Laird and Geoff Johns) made their intentions perfectly clear, it just felt like they didn't stick the landing.
---------

And I know for a fact that that Cowlick pulls in more choch than Mark McGrath. SO HUH.
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Old 07-23-2020, 11:36 AM   #65
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Came across this art last night (via Redbubble) that I'm going to end up having to get on a shirt or something... Made me think of this thread because really, from a lady perspective, those are some swoon worthy eyes. What a shame if no fictional ladies look past the differences and take notice!

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Old 07-23-2020, 11:53 AM   #66
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Sooooo, you don't have to answer this, and you know you're one'a my All-Time Favorites, I just felt like this would be a perfect time to ask...

But... that voice clip of Leo saying "The girl is a fox!" from the 1990 movie... that's your Text Message Alert, isn't it?

NO judgment! Just asking. My wife's got a tiny crush, too (maybe not so tiny... hmm... )... might have to razzle her to win your spot in The Blue One's "pecking order".

You totally don't have to answer the question. But why do I feel like if this dude were real he'd have his own harem without even trying?

But yeah, the cell phone thing... if you don't already do that, you should totally Do That.
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Old 07-23-2020, 12:06 PM   #67
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That would be hilarious, but I don't even have a smart phone so no, sadly it's not.

Harem? Okay, look, how many am I gonna have to cut down? *possessive Taurus mode activate* Actually, nah... there's an ever expanding Turtleverse, there's enough to go around.
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Old 07-23-2020, 12:15 PM   #68
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Now I know what to pretend to buy you for Christmas.

I can't speak for how to engage the other "usurpers" to your "claim". I can just tell you that my wife is ticklish under her right arm. You can do with that information what you will.

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Cudley the fvcking Cowsteak
I missed this before. Next time my wife and I have an Eyes Wide Shut party you are so f*cking invited, brah.
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Old 07-23-2020, 12:16 PM   #69
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I'm a huge fan of Poignant, but comics (or at least ones which ostensibly lean on action) shouldn't be Boring or Understated, is all. Gotta give people the ol' Razzmatazz, sometimes.
I think you're being unnecessarily harsh on that scene/plot simply because of the book it came in.

If it'd happened in a more action/plot oriented TMNT volume instead of Peter Laird Shilling for Moto Guzzi, Apple, and Al Gore: Now With Some TMNT!, would you honestly feel the same?

EDIT: Also, every time I criticize Volume 4 or Laird's writing choices, I feel like he's gonna hear about it, say "those assh0les!", and delay Volume 4 another two years. By my count, for every criticism I've made, he's not going to release Issue #33 until sometime 2169.
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Old 07-23-2020, 12:20 PM   #70
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That would be hilarious, but I don't even have a smart phone so no, sadly it's not.

Harem? Okay, look, how many am I gonna have to cut down? *possessive Taurus mode activate* Actually, nah... there's an ever expanding Turtleverse, there's enough to go around.
Well then... haha. If there were a TMNT multiverse and like every Leo ever came knockin', which Leo is your 1st choice?
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Old 07-23-2020, 12:28 PM   #71
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I think you're being unnecessarily harsh on that scene/plot simply because of the book it came in.

If it'd happened in a more action/plot oriented TMNT volume instead of Peter Laird Shilling for Moto Guzzi, Apple, and Al Gore: Now With Some TMNT!, would you honestly feel the same?

EDIT: Also, every time I criticize Volume 4 or Laird's writing choices, I feel like he's gonna hear about it, say "those assh0les!", and delay Volume 4 another two years. By my count, for every criticism I've made, he's not going to release Issue #33 until sometime 2169.
Naaaaaahhh, I can definitely see why you might think that because I rant about the book a lot, but I was still really, really trying to go along for the ride, at that point. Sincerely.

That Moment was just one of the first big things that tipped me off that this book wasn't gonna be very satisfying for me.

I actually have given a LOT of thought to how Splinter's death might have played better in That comic or just A comic, and to be fair, I don't have any really good answers. I can only report when things don't make me feel the way they're intended to. I can't always advise on how they'd specifically be improved.

I know for a fact Laird used to either lurk here, or someone would report my posts to him Back Then, because sometimes he would paraphrase me in the letter column with a little bit of defensive sass. Especially when I wasn't nice about his buddy Jim. He still kept the book going for like three more years so I doubt he's quite THAT thin-skinned.

Point of fact, not long ago I PM'ed Lawson and apologized for being a little too stiff at times about his art, because I know I was, many times, and I know it got back to him and I know he wasn't thrilled. He totally no-sold it, doesn't look like he ever even read it, so... Eh. I feel like my conscience is clean on that end, at least. I tried!

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Well then... haha. If there were a TMNT multiverse and like every Leo ever came knockin', which Leo is your 1st choice?
I think my wife would actually cut someone to get a swing at 1990 Movie Leo. I've seen the look she gets when he gets all Big Time on someone.

She generally thinks that kinda thing is a little bit silly, BUT, I guess Everybody Gets One.
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Old 07-23-2020, 12:51 PM   #72
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Naaaaaahhh, I can definitely see why you might think that because I rant about the book a lot, but I was still really, really trying to go along for the ride, at that point. Sincerely.

That Moment was just one of the first big things that tipped me off that this book wasn't gonna be very satisfying for me.

I actually have given a LOT of thought to how Splinter's death might have played better in That comic or just A comic, and to be fair, I don't have any really good answers. I can only report when things don't make me feel the way they're intended to. I can't always advise on how they'd specifically be improved.
Fair enough. I do have a lot of love for parts of Volume 4. Leonardo and the Battle Nexus, everything with Michelangelo's story arc, Splinter's death, and the Utroms making first contact were all definite highlights.

Donatello's arc I liked, too, up to the point when he stayed shrunk. That seemed dumb to me.

But Volume 4 sure did my man Raph wrong.
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Old 07-23-2020, 12:55 PM   #73
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A lady does not reveal her age, weight, or Turtleverse preferences!

*cough* Adore Leo in general and most versions, but on average something akin to an aged up 2003 would fit the bill if he showed up and wanted to catch a movie. I'm sure that's a very common choice. lol

Less common choice, I really wouldn't mind already older seeming PD 2016 Leo either, provided real world physics scale him down to a more normal size. (As it stands those PD Turtles would break a theater seat... edit: Okay now I want a film short of them trying to sneak into a theater to catch a movie.) Easier to imagine live action Turtles in the real world than trying to translate cartoons ones to it... Plus, his profile is rather 2003-ish.

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I think my wife would actually cut someone to get a swing at 1990 Movie Leo. I've seen the look she gets when he gets all Big Time on someone.

She generally thinks that kinda thing is a little bit silly, BUT, I guess Everybody Gets One.
lol Fine to leave it to her then. As much as I love the 1990 Turtles like anyone else...90s animatronics is a little puppety for my taste these days.
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Old 07-23-2020, 01:09 PM   #74
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Fair enough. I do have a lot of love for parts of Volume 4. Leonardo and the Battle Nexus, everything with Michelangelo's story arc, Splinter's death, and the Utroms making first contact were all definite highlights.

Donatello's arc I liked, too, up to the point when he stayed shrunk. That seemed dumb to me.

But Volume 4 sure did my man Raph wrong.
I don't say this often, and perhaps I should, but I greatly admire Vol. 4 for attempting to do what almost no other version of TMNT even attempts to do, and that's move the story forward.

I just don't like a lot of the choices and execution. But all the credit in the world for ambition. Seriously. I poke and I razz and I speak my mind about what I think didn't work. But at least they let things go past "Year Three" or whatever of the TMNT story, which is more or less where most TMNT media hits a snag. It was an earnest attempt and it's written with sincerity. Props for that. It just could've used a little bit more of what I call "Oooomph-AH!" I can't explain exactly what that is, I just know that you know it when you see it.

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*cough* Adore Leo in general and most versions, but on average something akin to an aged up 2003 would fit the bill if he showed up and wanted to catch a movie. I'm sure that's a very common choice. lol
Ahhh, yeah, I saw my wife get a twinkle when we re-watched Season 1 of 2K3 recently, too. I can see it. He's rather "intense" in that show.
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Old 07-23-2020, 02:45 PM   #75
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I don't say this often, and perhaps I should, but I greatly admire Vol. 4 for attempting to do what almost no other version of TMNT even attempts to do, and that's move the story forward.
I get what you're saying, but I feel like the core Mirage/Image continuity WAS always moving forward.

TMNT Volume 1, skipping the guest era nonsense, was always moving forward, with the Tales thrown in.

TMNT Volume 2 kinda did, but it didn't really last long enough to REALLY move the ball forward.

TMNT Volume 3 did for Raph and Mike, and the relationship with the Foot Clan. Also the Jones family.

And TMNT Volume 4 did.

It didn't always do it well, but Mirage/Image TMNT never rebooted itself, or ever left things at the status quo.
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Old 07-23-2020, 04:09 PM   #76
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Well I mean yeah, but Vol. 4 was waaaaay forward.

I also discount Image because... well, I'm just gonna say it. Anything with an "Image" sticker on it that was published in the 1990s, I probably don't have a lot of nice things to say about. I admit an inherent bias, totally. "1990s Image" is one of my all-time least-favorite "things" about the entire comic book industry, so that right there means I probably can't be fair to the TMNT book. Because Image. BUT. I defer to Laird, and he said it's fanfic. So I don't count it as "Vol. 3", even if it tried to fit in. I know, I know, "It was supposed to be." There's OTHER reasons I don't care for it. But yeah, I'm gonna leave Image out of the conversation, the water's muddy enough.

I'unno if I'd want any other series to be set a whopping 15 years after their "debut" or whatever like Vol. 4 did, but it was a ballsy move, I give 'em that. All the movies and TV shows and most other things just flame out shortly after Shredder's finally gone. Like if they start each TMNT story at age 15, most versions never most past them being, like, 17-18 in-story. So just the fact that Vol. 4 was so far removed from the Year One stuff makes it unique in itself.

That's what I meant by "moving forward" in regard to Vol. 4, specifically; as in not at all closely tethered to the Year One type stuff. The idea of an ongoing TMNT story where a LOT of time has passed since their "debut" and it's more or less an entirely different world by then was a rather novel approach at the time. I don't mean like, story progression specifically, obviously Mirage always did story progression. I mean "We're not doing like Two Years or Three Years after they showed up, we're going WAY forward."

It maybe wouldn't have been what I'd have done but it made sense and was in itself a pretty great idea. I just think that the execution, at times, didn't make the most of the opportunities they created for themselves with that choice. There's definitely a lot of good ideas in the soup. It was just... not all executed to full potential.

I also liked that they let Tales Vol. 2 tell some of those stories that happened in-between series. I felt like that was a great approach and made the most of having two books; it just sometimes felt like Tales was "the real book" and Vol. 4 was Laird's fanfic or something. Because as far as tone and the kind of plots, I've said this before but Tales V2 was much more "typical" of what one would expect from a TMNT comic and the stories had a lot more pizzazz. There wasn't so much "waiting for something to happen", things Just Happened, a lot, and they answered questions we might have had about what went on between Vol. 2 and 4. I really appreciated that. Especially once it became obvious that Vol. 4 wasn't interested in answering any of those questions, or even acknowledging them.

Neither book was perfect, but I can't stress enough how much more engaging and satisfying, on the whole, that Tales was compared to Vol. 4. I didn't always end up loving what I read but I always looked forward to reading it.

It also came out more than once a year. That was nice.
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Old 07-25-2020, 12:42 PM   #77
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How in Hades' name did we get from romance to Splinter keeling over?! Jeeze, I can't leave you two alone even for a minute....

Sooo, my take is that any/all of the boys would certainly jump at the chance for a relationship if an opportunity presented itself. Mikey, most of all, perhaps, but I feel like Raph would be right behind him in line. Leo, stoic as he tries to be, would be there too. Donnie- he's kind of an odd one. While I feel he'd welcome it if it happened, he's less likely to actively seek out such a situation. He's the thinker, the logician, he's the "Spock" of the group, and probably has an even tighter grip on his inner feelings than Leo in some ways. Not to say he doesn't get emotional, but he doesn't often show his vulnerability or his deeper desires.

I actually like to see them get involved with romantic relationships. It feels more realistic for them as emotional beings, it gives them a bit of humanity, and it makes for some very good story opportunities.
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Old 07-25-2020, 01:11 PM   #78
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Makes sense to me!

Also, threads will not remain on-topic so long as I exist. NEVAR!!! All Life is stream-of-consciousness. I'm just ahead of the curve.
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Old 07-25-2020, 01:21 PM   #79
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Until we bring in the duct tape.
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Old 07-25-2020, 01:46 PM   #80
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Location: nWo Country
Posts: 27,694
I like where this is going....
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"I left some words quite far from here to be a short reminder...
I laid them out in stone, in case they need to last forever..."

"But hey... I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know."
nWo Tech: The Official Thread Poison of the Technodrome Forums
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https://theroxxshow.blogspot.com/
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