Batman: The Killing Joke - Page 19

*MsMarvelDuckie* · 08-06-2016, 04:54 PM

Picked this up the other day and watched it last night. Wow. Gotta say, I like DC' animated movies better than their live action ones lately. THIS is the Joker I WISH we could see in a LA movie! He was brutal, sadistic, twisted, sick and ruthless, but he still knew how to have fun and have a wicked sense of humor. Why can't he be more like this in the DCEU? Ledger was nothing like this. THIS was the Joker I've always imagined. Hammil's still got it. And I don't see why abyone is complaining about the prelude or the Bat-sex scene. I thought both added to the plot with Bruce and Barbara. It made sense for what came later. And although the ebding was abrupt, it felt kind of cathartic to see them sharing a laugh at the end, although now that I think about it, Bats was the only one laughing after the fade. Hmm ....

*CyberCubed* · 08-06-2016, 05:30 PM

Batman screwing Barbara adds to another layer of why Batman had to save her at the end of defeat Joker, which wasn't in the original comic, because now its like, "Wow, Batman better get back at Joker for what he did to his booty call."

Its really just Bruce Timm's fantasy and using Batman as his self-insert character in having a 30+ year old man have sex with a young 20 year old girl.

~~Commenter 42~~ · 08-06-2016, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Its really just Bruce Timm's fantasy and using Batman as his self-insert character in having a 30+ year old man have sex with a young 20 year old girl.

It's really just Cubed's way of expressing his frustrations that he's in his 30's, and can't land a 20 year old anymore.

*Redeemer* · 08-06-2016, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Picked this up the other day and watched it last night. Wow. Gotta say, I like DC' animated movies better than their live action ones lately. THIS is the Joker I WISH we could see in a LA movie! He was brutal, sadistic, twisted, sick and ruthless, but he still knew how to have fun and have a wicked sense of humor. Why can't he be more like this in the DCEU? Ledger was nothing like this. THIS was the Joker I've always imagined. Hammil's still got it. And I don't see why abyone is complaining about the prelude or the Bat-sex scene. I thought both added to the plot with Bruce and Barbara. It made sense for what came later. And although the ebding was abrupt, it felt kind of cathartic to see them sharing a laugh at the end, although now that I think about it, Bats was the only one laughing after the fade. Hmm ....

Heath Ledger's Joker slammed a guys face down onto the table killing him with a pencil through the eye, cracks a joke about it. And then insults a mob boss with a Mother Joke how is that not sadistic or comical???? Sorry thats just my inner fanboy defending Ledger's Joker.

But I agree with you Mark Hamil nailed it and this joker was done extremely well.

*CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy* · 08-06-2016, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Its really just Bruce Timm's fantasy and using Batman as his self-insert character in having a 30+ year old man have sex with a young 20 year old girl.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

It's really just Cubed's way of expressing his frustrations that he's in his 30's, and can't land a 20 year old anymore.

... Anymore?

*Spike Spiegel* · 08-06-2016, 11:59 PM

Watched this tonight. I thought it all came together well. Maybe there should have been something between to bridge the two halves together.

Taken in context, the Bruce/Babs stuff was nowhere near as problematic as it seemed before.

~~Commenter 42~~ · 08-07-2016, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

... Anymore?

I didn't want to be cruel...

I wonder why Cubed repeats himself so often?

*Spike Spiegel* · 08-07-2016, 07:52 AM

Spoilery thoughts about a theme in the movie.

Spoiler:

*MsMarvelDuckie* · 08-07-2016, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redeemer

Heath Ledger's Joker slammed a guys face down onto the table killing him with a pencil through the eye, cracks a joke about it. And then insults a mob boss with a Mother Joke how is that not sadistic or comical???? Sorry thats just my inner fanboy defending Ledger's Joker.

But I agree with you Mark Hamil nailed it and this joker was done extremely well.

I'm not saying Heath's Joker wasn't sadistic, but comical? Sorry but no. Asking someone why they are being so serious while calmly cutting one's own face misses the mark by a MILE. And his "jokes" weren't even funny- just sick. He missed the point of Joker's entire personality. For one thing, Joker is a narcissist- he values his own self-image too much to ever mutilate himself that way. Also, that's not sadism, it's the opposite. It is masochism. Joker enjoys the auffering of OTHERS, but has a strong aversion to suffering himself. Watch him anytime Bats starts to get physical, and what do you see? He flinches away in fear, and tries to shield his face. Think about that. He values his own image so much that it is the thing he most wants to protect. A poison in the cosmetic supply that makes people "die laughing" is twisted but funny. A pencil in the eye isn't. Acid-spitting flowers and joy buzzers frying someone are cheap gags but they have a warped humor to them, being extreme versions of classic pranks. Ledger went too far into morbid and disturbed. That's not who Joker is; he is, above all, the "Clown Prince of Crime". That implies actually having a sense of humor. Hammil strikes the perfect balance of humorous and depraved.

*Coola Yagami* · 08-07-2016, 04:10 PM

Seen clips of it... I'll watch the whole thing someday. Kinda didn't like how they totally ruined Joker's infamous dialogue at the end. They cut parts from it, they threw in a random fight scene near the end of it forcing the Joker to rush through it. It was just all wrong... which is a shame because other than Joker shooting Babs, Joker's speech at the end finally being animated and being word for word was the whole point of even bothering to making an animated version of this in the first place. They bring in Mark Hamill only to ruin the speech?

I was already worried when I heard the voice over "WHY AREN'T YOU LAUGHING??!!" during one of the trailers.... when Joker really wasn't screaming in the comic when he said it. It's odd that a Hamill impersonator did a better job reading the speech from the comic than Hamill himself, though to be fair Mark did nothing wrong, that's the direction they told him to go with.

*Candy Kappa* · 08-07-2016, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike Spiegel

Spoilery thoughts about a theme in the movie.

Spoiler:

*ProactiveMan* · 08-07-2016, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike Spiegel

Spoilery thoughts about a theme in the movie.

Spoiler:

*Spike Spiegel* · 08-07-2016, 10:41 PM

Someone I was talking to brought up an interesting point--the Bruce/Babs scene is pretty tame compared to the main comic canon's implication that Talia

Spoiler:

In that scene from TKJ

Spoiler:

*Shark_Blade* · 08-10-2016, 08:58 AM

*TheSkeletonMan939* · 08-11-2016, 08:43 PM

So I got around to skimming through the film today... some of the animation is downright horrible by any standard. Did they blow their budget on Hamill or something? Did WB not want to risk big bucks on an R-rated animated feature?

*ToTheNines* · 08-11-2016, 08:48 PM

WB doesn't want to risk their small bucks on ****.

*Electric* · 08-12-2016, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

I'm not saying Heath's Joker wasn't sadistic, but comical? Sorry but no. Asking someone why they are being so serious while calmly cutting one's own face misses the mark by a MILE. And his "jokes" weren't even funny- just sick. He missed the point of Joker's entire personality. For one thing, Joker is a narcissist- he values his own self-image too much to ever mutilate himself that way. Also, that's not sadism, it's the opposite. It is masochism. Joker enjoys the auffering of OTHERS, but has a strong aversion to suffering himself. Watch him anytime Bats starts to get physical, and what do you see? He flinches away in fear, and tries to shield his face. Think about that. He values his own image so much that it is the thing he most wants to protect. A poison in the cosmetic supply that makes people "die laughing" is twisted but funny. A pencil in the eye isn't. Acid-spitting flowers and joy buzzers frying someone are cheap gags but they have a warped humor to them, being extreme versions of classic pranks. Ledger went too far into morbid and disturbed. That's not who Joker is; he is, above all, the "Clown Prince of Crime". That implies actually having a sense of humor. Hammil strikes the perfect balance of humorous and depraved.

Wonderful explanation.

Ledger nailed his role as Joker, but that was a darker, more grim, less humorous Joker. take off the make up, the purple clothes and the smile, and he would barely be similar to the most common, well-known form of Joker. His actions, dialogue and manneurisms are perfect for that film, but they are not that of what is traditionally Joker.

*MsMarvelDuckie* · 08-12-2016, 02:56 PM

Exactly. The Joker is someone who enjoys hamming it up almost as much as playing twisted games with Batman or killing people for the heck of it. This is a guy who would try to kill someone for stealing his schtick, or dump a guy in a tank of sharks just because it's clichee but viscious. And he'd do it all with a grin and a maniacal laugh because he appreciates the dark ironies and morbid cruelty of life- to him life itself is the ultimate joke and death is the punchline. Who else would "fire" a subordinate with a high-voltage joy buzzer or just shoot a random person for no reason and laugh about it? Heck, he even dehydrated the world peace council (with coconspirators) for ransom in one version, and didn't bat an eye. He's nuts, but in a very devil-may-care fashion. He gets off on watching people squirm (or scream) but he also can't resist a good joke or prank. It's what an evil Mikey might be like......

*Coola Yagami* · 08-23-2016, 10:03 PM

For the life of me I can't remember if James Gordon was there when Joker shot Babs in the comic. I could have sworn she was in the apartment alone.

The movie was.... weird. That first half was just way too long and made me think I rented the wrong movie and got some new animated Batgirl movie by mistake. When it finally came to the Killing Joke parts it just felt so disjointed, it made the entire first half feel like a waste of time, as if it didn't even happen. The movie just violently shifts to Batgirl's love problems and some dude trying to take over his uncle's criminal empire... to Batman discussing his relationship to the Joker. I know the real world reason for it, but in universe it's just weird and wonky. You don't spend a huge chunk of a movie having Batman try to stop Two-Face to suddenly make it about Catwoman without anything connecting the two stories together.

I don't know. I just didn't like it as much as I thought I would have. And I still feel the final Joker monologue, the whole friggin point of even animating this, was ruined by trimming it down and interrupting it with a fight scene. Even when the trailer showed the voice over of 'WHY AREN'T YOU LAUGHING???!!!' I thought to myself 'but... he wasn't yelling in the comic...'.

In the comic, Babs got shot and that was that for her. I don't think they ever mentioned 'Batgirl' in the whole story. It was about Batman, Gordon and the Joker and Babs was just the casualty that set the events into motion. I understand they wanted to add padding and also kinda make Batgirl more sympathetic to the audience. All they needed to do was have her beat some bad guys, while showing her skills and how happy she is to be so agile, have her come home and take off her mask so we see who she is, maybe talk to her dad to remind us of their connection, and then shoot her and start the story proper. That's all they really needed to do, and they botched it horribly.

*CyberCubed* · 08-23-2016, 11:42 PM

I know this story was written like 30 years ago, but if Joker paralyzed and nearly killed Batgirl, why on earth would Batman not borderline snap Joker's neck?

I don't like Batman laughing with Joker at all. Its completely out of character. And while I know the ending is ambiguous, the fact that Batman didn't beat the hell out of him first is bizarre.

On another note, how do people feel about Joker's origin story here? I honestly never liked this one much, I always prefered Joker to be a regular criminal/bank robber from the start.

08-06-2016, 04:54 PM	#361
MsMarvelDuckie I Married a Duck! Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: The bowels of Hell, Texas(otherwise known as Decatur) Posts: 8,772	Picked this up the other day and watched it last night. Wow. Gotta say, I like DC' animated movies better than their live action ones lately. THIS is the Joker I WISH we could see in a LA movie! He was brutal, sadistic, twisted, sick and ruthless, but he still knew how to have fun and have a wicked sense of humor. Why can't he be more like this in the DCEU? Ledger was nothing like this. THIS was the Joker I've always imagined. Hammil's still got it. And I don't see why abyone is complaining about the prelude or the Bat-sex scene. I thought both added to the plot with Bruce and Barbara. It made sense for what came later. And although the ebding was abrupt, it felt kind of cathartic to see them sharing a laugh at the end, although now that I think about it, Bats was the only one laughing after the fade. Hmm .... __________________ "You IDIOTS! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -from "Spaceballs" "Where Science ends, magic begins." -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491 My various stories and fan-fics are now here- https://m.fanfiction.net/u/4770494/#end

08-07-2016, 04:10 PM	#370
Coola Yagami Overlord Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 14,004	Seen clips of it... I'll watch the whole thing someday. Kinda didn't like how they totally ruined Joker's infamous dialogue at the end. They cut parts from it, they threw in a random fight scene near the end of it forcing the Joker to rush through it. It was just all wrong... which is a shame because other than Joker shooting Babs, Joker's speech at the end finally being animated and being word for word was the whole point of even bothering to making an animated version of this in the first place. They bring in Mark Hamill only to ruin the speech? I was already worried when I heard the voice over "WHY AREN'T YOU LAUGHING??!!" during one of the trailers.... when Joker really wasn't screaming in the comic when he said it. It's odd that a Hamill impersonator did a better job reading the speech from the comic than Hamill himself, though to be fair Mark did nothing wrong, that's the direction they told him to go with. __________________ "I was down with TMNT once, but then they changed what TMNT was. Now what I was down with is no longer TMNT and what TMNT now is seems weird and scary. And it'll happen to YOU." Check out my blog for Comic Reviews and other things. https://markepicblogofrandomness.blogspot.com/ I also started The AEW Crew, the All Elite Wrestling Fan Club! https://www.facebook.com/groups/637508120044168/

08-12-2016, 02:56 PM	#378
MsMarvelDuckie I Married a Duck! Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: The bowels of Hell, Texas(otherwise known as Decatur) Posts: 8,772	Exactly. The Joker is someone who enjoys hamming it up almost as much as playing twisted games with Batman or killing people for the heck of it. This is a guy who would try to kill someone for stealing his schtick, or dump a guy in a tank of sharks just because it's clichee but viscious. And he'd do it all with a grin and a maniacal laugh because he appreciates the dark ironies and morbid cruelty of life- to him life itself is the ultimate joke and death is the punchline. Who else would "fire" a subordinate with a high-voltage joy buzzer or just shoot a random person for no reason and laugh about it? Heck, he even dehydrated the world peace council (with coconspirators) for ransom in one version, and didn't bat an eye. He's nuts, but in a very devil-may-care fashion. He gets off on watching people squirm (or scream) but he also can't resist a good joke or prank. It's what an evil Mikey might be like...... __________________ "You IDIOTS! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -from "Spaceballs" "Where Science ends, magic begins." -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491 My various stories and fan-fics are now here- https://m.fanfiction.net/u/4770494/#end

08-23-2016, 10:03 PM	#379
Coola Yagami Overlord Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 14,004	For the life of me I can't remember if James Gordon was there when Joker shot Babs in the comic. I could have sworn she was in the apartment alone. The movie was.... weird. That first half was just way too long and made me think I rented the wrong movie and got some new animated Batgirl movie by mistake. When it finally came to the Killing Joke parts it just felt so disjointed, it made the entire first half feel like a waste of time, as if it didn't even happen. The movie just violently shifts to Batgirl's love problems and some dude trying to take over his uncle's criminal empire... to Batman discussing his relationship to the Joker. I know the real world reason for it, but in universe it's just weird and wonky. You don't spend a huge chunk of a movie having Batman try to stop Two-Face to suddenly make it about Catwoman without anything connecting the two stories together. I don't know. I just didn't like it as much as I thought I would have. And I still feel the final Joker monologue, the whole friggin point of even animating this, was ruined by trimming it down and interrupting it with a fight scene. Even when the trailer showed the voice over of 'WHY AREN'T YOU LAUGHING???!!!' I thought to myself 'but... he wasn't yelling in the comic...'. In the comic, Babs got shot and that was that for her. I don't think they ever mentioned 'Batgirl' in the whole story. It was about Batman, Gordon and the Joker and Babs was just the casualty that set the events into motion. I understand they wanted to add padding and also kinda make Batgirl more sympathetic to the audience. All they needed to do was have her beat some bad guys, while showing her skills and how happy she is to be so agile, have her come home and take off her mask so we see who she is, maybe talk to her dad to remind us of their connection, and then shoot her and start the story proper. That's all they really needed to do, and they botched it horribly. __________________ "I was down with TMNT once, but then they changed what TMNT was. Now what I was down with is no longer TMNT and what TMNT now is seems weird and scary. And it'll happen to YOU." Check out my blog for Comic Reviews and other things. https://markepicblogofrandomness.blogspot.com/ I also started The AEW Crew, the All Elite Wrestling Fan Club! https://www.facebook.com/groups/637508120044168/

08-06-2016, 05:30 PM	#362
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 41,036	Batman screwing Barbara adds to another layer of why Batman had to save her at the end of defeat Joker, which wasn't in the original comic, because now its like, "Wow, Batman better get back at Joker for what he did to his booty call." Its really just Bruce Timm's fantasy and using Batman as his self-insert character in having a 30+ year old man have sex with a young 20 year old girl.

08-10-2016, 08:58 AM	#374
Shark_Blade Emperor Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 7,902

08-11-2016, 08:43 PM	#375
TheSkeletonMan939 A New Day, A New Headache Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Over there Posts: 3,945	So I got around to skimming through the film today... some of the animation is downright horrible by any standard. Did they blow their budget on Hamill or something? Did WB not want to risk big bucks on an R-rated animated feature?

08-11-2016, 08:48 PM	#376
ToTheNines [sic] Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 15,098	WB doesn't want to risk their small bucks on ****.

08-23-2016, 11:42 PM	#380
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 41,036	I know this story was written like 30 years ago, but if Joker paralyzed and nearly killed Batgirl, why on earth would Batman not borderline snap Joker's neck? I don't like Batman laughing with Joker at all. Its completely out of character. And while I know the ending is ambiguous, the fact that Batman didn't beat the hell out of him first is bizarre. On another note, how do people feel about Joker's origin story here? I honestly never liked this one much, I always prefered Joker to be a regular criminal/bank robber from the start.