Alec Baldwin shoots and kills his own cinematographer

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Wildcat

I don’t know if 25 is too young. Seems like it was all just poorly handled. Lack of common sense.

Seems kinda young to me, but I'm 39. 25-year old me was pretty needlessly overconfident about multiple things. I never had anything THAT bad happen, but I definitely had my share of "What could possibly go wrong?" moments. At that age, it has a tendency to happen. It's not until way later that you look back and realize that you knew dick at that age.

You can say it was JUST a lack of common sense... but as it happens, "lack of common sense" is one of the biggest side effects of not having turned 30 yet. At that age, you simply don't fully realize the consequences of your actions, and how they might affect others, even if you THINK you do.

In my current-year exposure, most 25-year olds I encounter are total f*cking morons, to be kind. I, personally, would not entrust the life-and-death safety protocols of my entire cast and crew to a 25-year old. I *probably* would have second thoughts about sending them on an unsupervised Starbucks run. I *definitely* would not be putting them in charge of the guns.

But that's me. I can only speak to my own experience. Perhaps this person was properly trained and earned her spot.

Within the context of the situation, though... I highly, HIGHLY doubt it. She seems pretty unqualified. And if the blame is ultimately gonna fall anywhere come lawsuit time, you can bet hers is one of the heads that will ultimately roll.
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I read that the woman who got killed was married. I feel horrible for her husband. Like sick-horrible. I can't even imagine what that's like.

[Wildcat]

I agree when you’re in your 20s you don’t realize how immature you are. I’m 37 and look back on certain things. I did not get into any trouble or put anyone in danger but I know what you mean.

I have not read any reports. I’m assuming she was like a manager of a crew. Not actually handling the props. Not that that excuses her just I can see how it could get past you if your crew is not following your orders.

It seems like multiple people are to blame for not taking it seriously. Real bullets should not have even been around.

[Leo656]

Per the one article:

The person in charge of overseeing the gun props, known as the armorer, Hannah Gutierrez Reed, could not be reached for comment. The 24-year-old is the daughter of veteran armorer Thell Reed and had recently completed her first film as the head armorer for the movie "The Old Way," with Clint Howard and Nicolas Cage.

So while you might have something of a point, in theory, "overseeing the gun props" was literally her entire job description. Therefore, any "oopsies" ultimately have to rest in her lap.

Also, I misspoke; she was 24, not 25, and that's even worse.

Also also, this was only her second movie in that role. So we know for a fact she was inexperienced, at least in the practical sense.

Also also ALSO, you can put dollars down that Mommy got her into the business, and helped get her work on jobs like this in SPITE of her lack of practical experience. I'm sure Mommy taught her a thing or two over the years, but there's no substitute for life experience.

Not the right person for the job. I'm sayin' it. If I'm the studio, and I'm looking for someone to take 100% of the heat for this fiasco, that's your scapegoat, right there.

[Wildcat]

There’s this. Just did a quick google search out of curiosity.

https://www.tmz.com/2021/10/23/alec-...-head-handler/

It sounds bad but there was more than one armorer and I guess it’s still not confirmed if it was a real bullet. Just going by this. It was posted an hour ago.

Thell Reed is a gun expert that works in movies. I did not know who he was until right now.

[Andrew NDB]

If it was a real bullet... this is a whole different can of worms. It'd be like, if someone was filming a scene with Italian mobsters sinking someone off a boat in the middle of a deep lake somehow being given real lead weights that locked to sink someone to the bottom and kill them. This isn't "oh noes more scary guns!", this is gross negligence. Possibly even intent, given what we're learning about the pretty startling production and crew issues.

[Leo656]

I really hate social media.

Lots of people who clearly haven't read one article about the subject, screaming about how Baldwin is "a murderer" and "is gonna walk away because he's rich".

Go on Google for two minutes and don't just read one headline, you ignorant f*cking jackals.

I don't even especially care about Alec Baldwin - I liked him in Beetlejuice (that was Alec, right?), and that's it; past that, he's a non-entity in my eyes and I never even think about him otherwise - but that's not what happened, morons.

This isn't even the sort of incident where criminal charges would generally be filed. "Criminal negligence" on the part of certain staff, possibly. A civil suit and a large payout to the victim's family, 100% going to happen. And the chick who "oversaw" the guns on set probably isn't going to get a lot of work in the industry after this.

But Jesus Christ. "Alec Baldwin's a murderer and ought'a be in jail." F*cking sterilize these people, please. They can't read and they can barely write. Sterilize them, drown 'em, I really don't care... but we really ought'a make sure they don't f*cking breed.

[Andrew NDB]

Well. We can't say he isn't at this point until we know more about the gun situation. I think it'll turn out that he absolutely had no idea about what was going on with the gun being handed to him but we don't have all the facts yet.

That said, yes. This old tweet, while I don't think this is any reason to bang a pitchfork for him, now becomes somewhat interesting.

[Leo656]

By its very definition, "murder" demands intent.

And I find it very hard to believe that Alec Baldwin had any intent whatsoever to kill that woman.

Back in school we spent quite a few days in Criminal Justice going over what specifically defines "murder" versus other incidents where people get killed as a result of someone else's actions.

Turns out, 99% of the time when your average person cries "Murder!", it's actually something else entirely. That's why there's a dozen other terms for situations where one person kills another. "Murder" is not a catch-all; it's a very specific term with very specific criteria. Which is why most people accused of "murder", aren't actually found guilty of "murder", but something else entirely. "Murder" is hard to prove because intent is hard to prove. And the very term is predicated upon intent. "Did you MEAN to kill this person?" That's the most important part.

Call it a personal peeve. But whenever I see people fling around terms like "murder" with complete disregard for its actual definition, it's one of those "The f*ck did I even bother going to school and learning for?" moments. Very, very annoying. Granted, my grade in Criminal Justice was a B+, but I challenge anyone to do better when they missed 80 days out of a 180-day school year. Also, I never planned on being a lawyer, I just needed an elective with a lot of credits.

Anyway, no, Alec Baldwn didn't mean to kill that woman, ergo, Alec Baldwin is not a murderer. He's not even likely to be charged with anything, by most reports (thus far). If anyone is, it's likely to be a criminal negligence charge against the girl whose job it was to oversee the prop guns... y'know, the ones that kept going off all week long before this incident. She didn't do her job, period. If there's fault, it's on her. Her entire job on the movie's set was to make sure this sort of thing didn't happen, and it did.

But even then, it's unlikely she'd do time, or realistically even be charged.

What's going to happen is, this is ultimately going to be written off as a tragic accident, and the studio is going to cut someone's family a very large check, and that's very likely all. The armorer woman may be found liable in the civil suit and be forced to pay damages as well.

But point of fact, nobody - based on what we know - "murdered" anyone. And it's very unlikely that anyone did.

Someone died, but that's not the same thing as murder. At all.
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On the other tip, "Hooray for proof that nobody should ever have Twitter, especially drunk famous people like Alec Baldwin."

[IMJ]

I can't imagine how it isn't part of the S.A.G. protocols that when an actor is handed a gun for a role that he takes a moment to clear it visually with his Director standing next to him.

[Leo656]

If I'm an actor, and assuming I don't know dick about guns - easy in my case, since I don't - my first instinct is to say "That ain't my job, I don't even know what I'm looking at," and trust that the "experts" in charge of the props did theirs. My job is to point the thing and squeeze, and if the expert did their job then all's clear. If not, I shouldn't even be holding this f*cking thing. Nobody should be handing me a loaded gun. If I'm holding a loaded gun as an actor then several other people in the chain of command already screwed up big before it ever made it to my hands, that's all I can say.

Another wrestling anecdote: Bunch'a years ago, ring crew guy forgot to take the bracer bars off the bottom of a folding table so it would crack in half clean when two guys went through it for their big spot in the main event. Guys didn't know that, did the spot as planned. Table didn't break clean, guy got sliced by the metal bracer bar when it snapped. Not too bad, thankfully.

But see, it wasn't their job to know if the table was gimmicked right or not. Taking pins out of folding chairs before you crack a guy in the head, same thing. You don't check; you have to implicitly assume that the guy in charge of "props" did their job, because that is 100% of their job and 0% of yours. Otherwise, why are they even there?

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by Leo656

If I'm an actor, and assuming I don't know dick about guns - easy in my case, since I don't - my first instinct is to say "That ain't my job, I don't even know what I'm looking at," and trust that the "experts" in charge of the props did theirs. My job is to point the thing and squeeze, and if the expert did their job then all's clear. If not, I shouldn't even be holding this f*cking thing. Nobody should be handing me a loaded gun. If I'm holding a loaded gun as an actor then several other people in the chain of command already screwed up big before it ever made it to my hands, that's all I can say.

Another wrestling anecdote: Bunch'a years ago, ring crew guy forgot to take the bracer bars off the bottom of a folding table so it would crack in half clean when two guys went through it for their big spot in the main event. Guys didn't know that, did the spot as planned. Table didn't break clean, guy got sliced by the metal bracer bar when it snapped. Not too bad, thankfully.

But see, it wasn't their job to know if the table was gimmicked right or not. Taking pins out of folding chairs before you crack a guy in the head, same thing. You don't check; you have to implicitly assume that the guy in charge of "props" did their job, because that is 100% of their job and 0% of yours. Otherwise, why are they even there?

But see that's just it - these clearly aren't props. They are clearly using real firearms in simulated situations.

[Leo656]

Then they don't belong on a movie set where they can possibly end up in the hands of untrained civilians. That's how accidents happen. Boom.

[1987]

Originally Posted by Leo656

But Jesus Christ. "Alec Baldwin's a murderer and ought'a be in jail." F*cking sterilize these people, please. They can't read and they can barely write. Sterilize them, drown 'em, I really don't care... but we really ought'a make sure they don't f*cking breed.

well that’s a very far left radical extremist way of saying you disagree with them.

if it was another celebrity who wasn’t such a leftist extremist i could see your point. but alec baldwin spent the last 4 years of his career alienating half the country politically. you know if this happened to someone else he’d be one of the first in line calling for their extreme punsihment. look what he tweeted just 5 days ago:

https://mobile.twitter.com/AlecBaldw...73885358374918

he was calling for “Jan 6 terrorists” to be put in the worst prisons, but ironically now Alec Baldwin has killed more democrats than Jan 6. and he was the PRODUCER of this film, not just some actor or crew member, so he is entirely responsible for this. but he’s a rich celebrity, a democrat at that, so yeah he will probably walk, and come out even harder in support of gun control since he has experienced the dangers of guns first hand.

By the way, NIH admitted Dr Fauci lied under oath about gain of function research in China. Enjoy your distraction.

[IndigoErth]

So now Baldwin did it on purpose?

That would have to be a rather elaborate plan between multiple people if there was any intent whatsoever. I mean, how would you set up that scene to hurt the cinematographer and director, when THEY would be calling the shots (awful pun not intended) and putting themselves in that line of fire. Come on...

I feel for that stupid girl who was in charge of the safety of the arms on set, but yeah, no, someone that age... hell no, I don't care who your daddy is or what job you were able to just get handed because of it, someone that young and relatively new to it should not be the one fully in charge yet. Nothing against people young/mid 20s, but far too many are still just too lax on things they should not be.


Have they released yet what actually hit them? Did it go through the cinematographer and hit the director or was it some other kind of projectile that may have split and just hit both?

[joe-eyeball]

There is under NO circumstances any reason LIVE AMMO should even be on the set! Also, it would be almost impossible for a blank to kill someone when fired from a properly functioning firearm. The only reasonable ways a death could occur is if there were a barrel obstruction and the powder charge from the blank forced the obstruction out (ie, Brandon Lee death) or if an overpowered blank were used and the muzzle of the gun were pressed up against a persons body and even that in most cases likely wouldn’t result in death, or possible an overpowered blank resulted in a catastrophic failure of the firearm and “shrapnel” struck someone. If this shooting occurred because of live ammo being in the gun then someone did it on purpose and this was no accident at all!

[The Deadman]

Crew member yelled 'cold gun' as he handed Alec Baldwin prop weapon, court document shows
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/23/enter...day/index.html

And now we're getting this

‘Rust’ crew describes on-set gun safety issues and misfires days before fatal shooting
https://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...walked-off-set

Apparently this happened before the accident. This is on the prop department 100%.

[1987]

Very tragic what happened to the cinematographer.

I totally understand why people are condemning Alec Baldwin and saying he is fully responsible. Not only was he the producer of the film, Alec Baldwin has been politicizing everything for the last 4 years so this is just poetic justice on him with his hate and bigotry now being turned upon him by the canceled culture he helped create. Just very tragic that it cost that woman her life.

Some liberals already trying to blame this on Trump, conspiracy theory saying a Trump supporter loaded the prop gun with real bullets to get revenge on Alec Baldwin for years of SNL parodies

https://mobile.twitter.com/Villaveli...99563903242242

Liberals never cease to amaze

Everything Alec Baldwin has said about Trump and his supporters is not going to age well.

[IndigoErth]

What does a "misfire" even mean?

[Sumac]

I don't want to turn it into politics debate, but its just amazing how fast the very same people who say that "Right-wingers see Left conspiracies everywhere" turn into conspiracy nutjobs themselves.

[joe-eyeball]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

What does a "misfire" even mean?

An actual misfire is only when a round that is chambered in a functioning gun and the trigger is pulled resulting in the action functioning allowing the firing pin to move forward and strike the primer and the round does not discharge. A misfire is typically ammo related and sometimes due to a “light” strike on the ammo casings primer. Sometimes the primer of the cartridge is a hard primer and needs another strike to set it off and sometimes the ammo is just a plain dud.

I must say that the information in some articles talking about accidental discharge of the guns is a bit ignorant. I mean this a western and so the prop guns would be revolvers and more specifically single action only revolvers. That means the only way to fire them would be if someone deliberately pulls the hammer all the way back to c0ck it and then pulls what would then be a light trigger pull to fire it. You also could potentially fire the gun if you have a round in the chamber with the hammer down on a live round and something struck the hammer hard to ignite the primer. If the guns being used were 100% accurate to the time period it would be possible to fire a round by smacking a down hammer on a live round, but if they used modern replicas of the guns then those particular guns may have a transfer bar mechanism inside them that would make that almost impossible to occur.