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Old 06-26-2022, 05:48 AM   #1
ZariusTwo
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Does 'Shredder's Revenge' Retcon Turtles Forever & The 2012 Crossovers? (Spoilers)

I watched a playthrough and

Spoiler:
Apparently the game treats this as taking place after season ten of the original show, and one of the stages is the remains of the Technodrome on the planet Bellerathon, which was the location it was destroyed at in the season eight finale 'Turtle Treck'. Krang's android body being reassembled is also a main plot point, it was supposedly blown up in the season ten finale "Divide and Conquer")
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Old 06-26-2022, 06:21 AM   #2
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No? Why would that contradict Turtles Forever? If anything it would explain why they still have the Technodrome at the start of Turtles forever and how it was possible for Ch'rell to make such drastic modifications to it without them ever being in the show.

As for the crossovers with the 2012 show, those just kind of expects you to forget anything you knew about Krang's backstory, what Dimension X was and that Traag wasn't a giant mute monster that puked lava. Despite what some people might try to claim, the 2012 crossovers make absolutely no sense with what the FW cartoon established.

Regardless, I don't think either crossover really put much thought into how it would fit into the show. Remember here, it's not the show itself that people are attached to, it's their vague memories of the show. Most people who are interested in Shredder's Revenge, Turtles Forever or the 2012 crossovers because of the FW turtles probably don't care about details like how the show ended or what Krang was because they don't care to remember those details in the first place.

Uh... Oh yeah, does game care to explain what happened to Dregg or why April is back working for Channel 6? Because, while I haven't played it, something tells me the game tried to touch on the Red Sky seasons as little as possible, for similar reasons I already talked about.
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Old 06-26-2022, 10:01 AM   #3
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I'm surprised they even went through the lengths to imply that these things happened in the game. I'm impressed and it also seems that the people from the game did more research than the crew for the Turtles Forever / 2012 crossovers.

As far as the question I'd say that Turtles Forever/2012 crossovers despite doing less research would be more "canon" than a tie-in video game even if they showed more care towards continuity so it can't retcon something in a higher tier of canon.

Second I think we can now look at two possible placements of the timeline for the crossovers. Most people wanted to place them around season 4 since it's what the turtles most resembled tone wise and things matched but if we want to take Shredder's Revenge as canon then we can guess that the Technodrome was rebuilt and the tone of the show eventually went back to season 4 levels after season 10 so Turtles Forever/2012 could've happened after season 10. Not my solution since season 10 makes a good finale and I don't like the turtles resetting to season 4 with Shredder never defeated but whatever.

I think the new comics will likely also sort of ignore the red sky seasons while still taking place after them. They won't go into details but perhaps a line of dialog of how they rebuilt the technodrome or something despite the comic resembling more the TMNT of those early seasons. But who knows I also think the new comics will have them using smartphones and other modern technology.

Quote:
Regardless, I don't think either crossover really put much thought into how it would fit into the show. Remember here, it's not the show itself that people are attached to, it's their vague memories of the show. Most people who are interested in Shredder's Revenge, Turtles Forever or the 2012 crossovers because of the FW turtles probably don't care about details like how the show ended or what Krang was because they don't care to remember those details in the first place.
This is all true but it's up to the fans to full in the gaps and make sense of it all, that's how it's always been and I'm fine with that. Any continuation whether comic/game/crossover will be the "classic" turtles and not what they became during the run of the show.


Quote:
Uh... Oh yeah, does game care to explain what happened to Dregg or why April is back working for Channel 6? Because, while I haven't played it, something tells me the game tried to touch on the Red Sky seasons as little as possible, for similar reasons I already talked about.
I think those are smaller details fans can fill in the gaps, "Channel 6 got rebuilt and April got her old job back" & depending of if we ever see Dregg again what really happened to him can be filled in as well or just pretend he did die.



Quote:
As for the crossovers with the 2012 show, those just kind of expects you to forget anything you knew about Krang's backstory, what Dimension X was and that Traag wasn't a giant mute monster that puked lava. Despite what some people might try to claim, the 2012 crossovers make absolutely no sense with what the FW cartoon established.
This is likely better for another thread but there has to be a way to make it work. Sure it's weird that the Dimension X from 1987 is the same one as 2012, since neutrinos are different but I guess there could be different species of neutrinos and other rock soliders with those same names. Krang being a Kraang is kinda cool honestly since it means he is indeed an Utrom.
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Old 06-26-2022, 10:09 AM   #4
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Krang being a Kraang is kinda cool honestly since it means he is indeed an Utrom.
Which contradicts his backstory from OG series, sans that infamous episode, where you can see whole race of Krangs in bubblewalkers.
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Old 06-26-2022, 10:25 AM   #5
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Which contradicts his backstory from OG series, sans that infamous episode, where you can see whole race of Krangs in bubblewalkers.
Either way the 87 show contradicts itself so you still had to choose one backstory. But there's actually an explanation for that.

The episode where Krang grows a body never specifies that it's what his species looks like. It might be implied but never outright said in the episode, just that he is growing a body. So it's just him growing a body not HIS body since he's a brain as it hsd preciously been shown in the 87 cartoon.
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Old 06-26-2022, 11:53 AM   #6
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I still don't understand why everyone racks their brain trying to make the two crossovers and the original show totally "make sense." The 87 show itself never totally made sense. It was a cartoon from the 80s. That means it's full of continuity errors and blatent retcons as it changes established bits of info from one season to the next whenever it was convenient. It's just how most cartoons from that era were. So does the 2012 crossover totally line up with the '87 show? It doesn't matter, because the '87 show doesn't totally line up with the '87 show. Does the game totally line up? No, but neither does the old show. It may as well be a new episode where they pretend what they did before didn't happen the way they said it did, which happened ALL THE TIME. In that sense they fit right in.

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Old 06-26-2022, 12:26 PM   #7
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Either way the 87 show contradicts itself so you still had to choose one backstory. But there's actually an explanation for that.

The episode where Krang grows a body never specifies that it's what his species looks like. It might be implied but never outright said in the episode, just that he is growing a body. So it's just him growing a body not HIS body since he's a brain as it hsd preciously been shown in the 87 cartoon.
Except first season outright said, that Krang had a body, which he lost, when he was kicked out of Dimension X. So, it is not a big leap of logic to assume that whatever Krang-clones turn into is his real look.
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Old 06-26-2022, 03:55 PM   #8
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As far as the question I'd say that Turtles Forever/2012 crossovers despite doing less research would be more "canon" than a tie-in video game even if they showed more care towards continuity so it can't retcon something in a higher tier of canon.

I think the new comics will likely also sort of ignore the red sky seasons while still taking place after them. They won't go into details but perhaps a line of dialog of how they rebuilt the technodrome or something despite the comic resembling more the TMNT of those early seasons. But who knows I also think the new comics will have them using smartphones and other modern technology.
Not really a fan of appeal to authority here. I don't think we'll ever really get the "true" continuation of the show, all things considered. Crossovers, homage heavy video games and comic book minis are probably about as close to a season 11 as we'll get and they'll probably keep on contradicting each other or the show itself. The idea of a unified "canon" continuation of the FW show seems like it will never happen, certainly not as another animated series.

I'm not so sure it's on the agenda to make a season 11 because:
  • Even though Paramount owns the characters, the original comics and the 2003 show they don't own the FW cartoon. Making another season they can't distribute the first 10 of seems counter-productive.
  • While Paramount are fine with using the FW turtles, it mainly seems to be for the purpose of luring in older fans, not out of a desire to continue it's continuity.
  • The fact that there are like three reboots and counting makes it seem like just making another reboot is a better idea.
  • If Paramount ever does end up obtaining the rights to the show it will probably have been like 30-40 years (or more) after it ended, at which point anyone still interested will be outnumbered by fans who grew up on the various reboots.
So trying to determine which attempts to continue the show after 1996 count as "canon" may be fruitless.

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This is all true but it's up to the fans to full in the gaps and make sense of it all, that's how it's always been and I'm fine with that. Any continuation whether comic/game/crossover will be the "classic" turtles and not what they became during the run of the show.

I think those are smaller details fans can fill in the gaps, "Channel 6 got rebuilt and April got her old job back" & depending of if we ever see Dregg again what really happened to him can be filled in as well or just pretend he did die.

This is likely better for another thread but there has to be a way to make it work. Sure it's weird that the Dimension X from 1987 is the same one as 2012, since neutrinos are different but I guess there could be different species of neutrinos and other rock soliders with those same names. Krang being a Kraang is kinda cool honestly since it means he is indeed an Utrom.
Not really a fan of "fans filling in the blanks" either. If any attempts to "continue" the show are just shallow marketing ploys that don't really pay much attention to the details of the show, I'm not so sure it's a good idea to try and figure out where they all fit in. In this case it's probably just easier to say the show ended in 1996 and because no attempts to make a continuation can be considered serious, there really isn't a canon FW story after 1996.

I know that for many franchises, canon is effectively just a fandom creation with the authors themselves rarely caring, but if we are to take the concept seriously, then there are effectively two criteria to stick to in order for it to hold any meaning:
  1. Does the author/company say it counts?
  2. How consistent is it with the rest of the series?
So if we were to ask Paramount about the first one, they'd probably say "We don't give a fuck, we only do this shit because 40-somethings are more likely to stay on for our reboots if we pretend to care about that show". And Fred Wolf would probably say "No, because I can only make money on the episodes I actually produced, please buy them on Amazon". As for the second criteria, I mean you can always jump through mental hoops to make it work but we all know they don't so...

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Shredder's Revenge is basically a sequel to the Konami game universe which in itself was its own separate universe from the original carton.
No. This game clearly went out of it's way to seem like a continuation of the cartoon, even to the point of using characters like Shreeka and Tiffany who aren't really associated with anything other than the FW cartoon. Not to mention the explicit use of the terrible FW design for Slash instead of the more appealing Archie/toy design Konami used (and please don't try to argue otherwise, the FW design of Slash is utter garbage).

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Yeah, this is stupid. Did anyone ever look for things in TMNT 1-4, Hyperstone Heist and Tournament Fighters that contradict the cartoon? We're just starting now, with Shredder's Revenge?
Well, because as stated in the opening post, the game contains a clear attempt to weave it's plot into the continuity of the show. And as I've stated, the game is going a bit overboard with trying to emulate the Fred Wolf cartoon.

I don't know if this is easy to forget or something, but the Konami games weren't exactly this slavishly faithful to the cartoon. Yeah, they used the Fred Wolf cartoon as the core template because that's what nearly all kiddy TMNT products did at the time. But they also weren't afraid of pulling from the Archie series, the live-action movies or Mirage. That's the obvious difference between this game and those games.

If this game didn't contain an explanation for how the Technodrome was brought back after it's destruction in the show and/or had a boss fight with Hun or someone else who wasn't ever part of the FW show, I don't think we'd be having this conversation.

That said, I'd probably only be slightly surprised if the DLC/sequels to this game features characters like Hun or Savanti Romero. Like I've already pointed out, Paramount are only really interested in the FW show because it's good for marketing, they might just see this game a launchpad for a successful video game series in it's own right rather a serious attempt to create a zombie version of the FW era.
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Old 06-26-2022, 09:19 PM   #9
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No. This game clearly went out of it's way to seem like a continuation of the cartoon, even to the point of using characters like Shreeka and Tiffany who aren't really associated with anything other than the FW cartoon. Not to mention the explicit use of the terrible FW design for Slash instead of the more appealing Archie/toy design Konami used (and please don't try to argue otherwise, the FW design of Slash is utter garbage).

..
In the same way the original games took things from the cartoons but added their own spin on it. The game is a sequel to the Konami videogame universe, featuring the same elements like multi-colored Foot Soldiers (which never appeared in the original cartoon as they were just purple), the various Konami only robots, and Krang's bizarre obsession with the Statue of Liberty which was taken from Turtles in Time. And as said Super Shredder never happened in the cartoon, but happened in TMNT III NES, Turtles in Time, etc.
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Old 06-27-2022, 01:48 AM   #10
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Well, because as stated in the opening post, the game contains a clear attempt to weave it's plot into the continuity of the show.
I don't mean to insult, but no. As others have mentioned it is clearly it is a Konami sequel. "Big Apple 3 AM" and now "Big Apple 3 PM" and so forth. This is not like something illusive. And the Konami games were just a jambalaya of cartoon/toy crap. Which was fine! But it is what it is there. If you want to pretend this is some kind of long awaited Fred Wolf sequel, go ahead, but also know that that's dumb.
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Old 06-27-2022, 05:00 AM   #11
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I don't mean to insult, but no

No offence taken Andrew

At least I wasn't the only one 'thinking' it judging from the screengrab shared by Ninjister.
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Old 06-27-2022, 08:17 AM   #12
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I'm a fan of something called CUPO: Canon Until Proven Otherwise. If a character doesn't exist in one universe or a story point that is prevalent in other continuities doesn't mean he doesn't exist in that continuity but more of a we just haven't been told that story yet in this universe. So yeah Super Shredder was never seen but it's likely that a similar story could've happened in the 1987 universe and so on albeit differently, or perhaps it didn't.

Oh and I definitely don't want a season 11 of the 87 show or want this game to be considered "hard" canon as I stated before in the thread. Just debating continuity is fun for me.

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Not really a fan of "fans filling in the blanks" either. If any attempts to "continue" the show are just shallow marketing ploys that don't really pay much attention to the details of the show, I'm not so sure it's a good idea to try and figure out where they all fit in. In this case it's probably just easier to say the show ended in 1996 and because no attempts to make a continuation can be considered serious, there really isn't a canon FW story after 1996.

I know that for many franchises, canon is effectively just a fandom creation with the authors themselves rarely caring, but if we are to take the concept seriously, then there are effectively two criteria to stick to in order for it to hold any meaning:
  1. Does the author/company say it counts?
  2. How consistent is it with the rest of the series?
Well I'm not going to say it's great that fans have to give explanations but that's how it's always been in fandoms. Only in the last decade have we seen the people making in shows wanting to have a consistent canon and ironically enough it only gives us worse explanations or creates bigger problems. Maybe fans creating FANON wasn't such a bad thing. It's better when franchises embrace Fanon and make it outright canon. It's certainly worked for Power Rangers.
For your first point it's a bad one since word of god might be different from what the company wants, and the company will retcon word of god the first chance it gets even in the same show and they own the IP. However the company also doesn't care enough about the franchise to mantain a consistent canon. So I think it's easier to judge by the second point but I'd phrase it more as "What makes the most sense with the in universe rules the franchise has established?". Obviously there's also the fact that every franchise has a tiered canon and a movie series will ignore "canon" comics or video games since the next director will not care to use that so even if the original creator made the first movie and some comics after that the movie series would be the numbered sequels and so on. With the "original creator timeline' being a different one from the movie series and whatnot.

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Except first season outright said, that Krang had a body, which he lost, when he was kicked out of Dimension X. So, it is not a big leap of logic to assume that whatever Krang-clones turn into is his real look.
But if you watch the first season again Krang complains about not having his body, he wants his body back, and when he gets the android body, he clearly states he finally has his body. I don't remember the specific quotes but it's never outright stated it's a biological body and he seems perfectly happy with the mechanical one. If Utroms use "human bodies", it's not too out there to think that what Krang wants is his android body back and that's what they took away from him.






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Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
Shredder's Revenge is basically a sequel to the Konami game universe which in itself was its own separate universe from the original carton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew NDB View Post
Yeah, this is stupid. Did anyone ever look for things in TMNT 1-4, Hyperstone Heist and Tournament Fighters that contradict the cartoon? We're just starting now, with Shredder's Revenge?

I don't mean to insult, but no. As others have mentioned it is clearly it is a Konami sequel. "Big Apple 3 AM" and now "Big Apple 3 PM" and so forth. This is not like something illusive. And the Konami games were just a jambalaya of cartoon/toy crap. Which was fine! But it is what it is there. If you want to pretend this is some kind of long awaited Fred Wolf sequel, go ahead, but also know that that's dumb.
Clearly this is 100% a spiritual sequel and only influenced by the Konami TMNT games no one is denying that. The game is pretty much NOT in continuity with those games. Konami was just trying to make a generic Turtles game story pulling from everything in the franchise, even their own titles don't really have a continuity with each other. It's like saying Archie is the same continuity because all the first issues are the same as the cartoon.

This game was clearly made to be in continuity with the show and it's basically the first game the 1987 cartoon gets. Now I'm not saying it's "canon" because as with any spin-off well, it really isn't since it will be ignored if anyone actually made a season 11 of the cartoon. Not that I want or think it's possible we'd get a season 11, but in the extremely unlikely scenario it would ignore the game obviously but if you're a fan of the 87 show and want it to be part of your "headcanon" there's no issue there, it's clearly meant to fit with the cartoon.


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This is just marketing, they don't want to piss off autistic fanboys. People involved always give vague comments like this to appease most of the fanbase, hell it's what Kevin Munroe did here in the technodrome with his movie "oh yeah it's in loose continuity with the movies, up to the fans to decide" etc.

Clearly the game wants to be seen as a part of the cartoon but they don't want to be inundated by fans questions about why it doesn't fit into the shows continuity with every small mistake they can find.

The whole "1987 had no hard continuity" comment is pure BS. It wasn't serialized storytelling like TMNT 2k3/2012 but it clearly had a continuity and storyline it followed. The only big continuity problems we have are Krang's body which isn't a big deal and can be explained and there being two different versions of Atlantis. Other than that the show is very consistent.
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Old 06-27-2022, 08:51 AM   #13
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Idk, it kinda feels like a sequel where sometime between now and I guess Turtles in Time/Hyperstone Heist the Technodrome was destroyed and Krang's body was dismantled. Now they're trying to reassemble Krang's body and get revenge on the turtles.

Kinda makes sense since most every game ends with the Turtles blowing up the Technodrome anyway.
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Old 06-27-2022, 09:56 PM   #14
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But if you watch the first season again Krang complains about not having his body, he wants his body back, and when he gets the android body, he clearly states he finally has his body. I don't remember the specific quotes but it's never outright stated it's a biological body and he seems perfectly happy with the mechanical one. If Utroms use "human bodies", it's not too out there to think that what Krang wants is his android body back and that's what they took away from him.
Sorry, sounds like a conjecture.
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Old 07-01-2022, 01:52 PM   #15
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Regardless, I don't think either crossover really put much thought into how it would fit into the show. Remember here, it's not the show itself that people are attached to, it's their vague memories of the show. Most people who are interested in Shredder's Revenge, Turtles Forever or the 2012 crossovers because of the FW turtles probably don't care about details like how the show ended or what Krang was because they don't care to remember those details in the first place.
Well, some fans might care, but when creators want to do callbacks they have to pick and choose what those callbacks focus on. Turtles Forever and the 2012 crossovers intentionally focus on the least violent and goofiest seasons in the middle of Fred Wolf TMNT, because even if they aren't the seasons many of that show's fans prefer, they give them the biggest contrast to their own universes that they can milk for jokes and maybe even major plot points.

Calling back in a game like TMNTSR is similar in a lot of ways. Maybe the Red Sky seasons improved Fred Wolf TMNT but they also took away from what made it a distinct incarnation, and so it's understandable that when they chose to do specifically a Fred Wolf TMNT game, they mostly ignored them. I could be wrong, but the sort of fans who prefer their turtles to be less rotund, more serious and more violent are not the sort whose preferred source of that is the Fred Wold series' take on it. Maybe that was well-received at the time it was new, back when there wasn't any other gritty TMNT series, but now that there have been several of those, Red Sky seems less special.

But regarding Turtles Forever in particular, the important thing to remember is that the Fred Wolf show was not written for it to be canon so retroactively fitting it in there anywhere is a lost cause. It ends up with the Technodrome looking different, and that alone would alter continuity of the Fred Wolf series. Not that the Fred Wolf series had much continuity, but it did have the Technodrome as a concept for much of it. For Turtles Forever to be canon in any future incarnations, they would need to choose to not have stuff actually written back in the Fred Wolf era be canon; they can't have it both ways. At least not fully.
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Old 06-26-2022, 02:50 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by ZariusTwo View Post
I watched a playthrough and

Spoiler:
Apparently the game treats this as taking place after season ten of the original show, and one of the stages is the remains of the Technodrome on the planet Bellerathon, which was the location it was destroyed at in the season eight finale 'Turtle Treck'. Krang's android body being reassembled is also a main plot point, it was supposedly blown up in the season ten finale "Divide and Conquer")
As one of the biggest FW fans on this forum, I'm surprised you haven't played the game yet.
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Old 06-27-2022, 12:22 AM   #17
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As one of the biggest FW fans on this forum, I'm surprised you haven't played the game yet.
I'm working on about a gajillion projects right now, I haven't had any time. I'm also not a hardcore gamer devotee as I was a decade ago.
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