What is the obsession with TMNT creators adding in a 5th turtle?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I'm gonna disagree with all these guys.

Ninja Turtles needs a female turtle. What other female characters in TMNT are there for girls to like? April is boring. Renet is barely ever involved. Karai? But she's not a mutant (or she's a stupid snake mutant).

My daughter likes TMNT; she likes typically girly things. And I know my child; she would be even happier with TMNT if there was a girl Turtle.

Look at Power Rangers; there are female Power Rangers. He-Man has Teela and She-Ra. Star Trek has Janeway, Dax, Seven, Torres, etc etc etc.

What other major kids properties are there that are so one-sided in representation? And not for "SJW purposes" but just in the terms of bringing in more potential fans?

Venus could have been great, but was done terribly.
Jennika could be great, but so far, there's not a ton to like about her (and yes, I still hold her human origin against her).
Lita could be great, but so far, she's a tiny little kid OR a super-powered Time Mistress.

Regardless, as soon as Volume 13 comes in, I'm really looking forward to introducing my kiddo to Jennika. I may not like the character, and there may be a ton of problems with her creation and execution, but my daughter will like her. And from there, there's even more potential moving forward... both for my daughter's fandom and for the character herself.

[neatoman]

Why the hell would the inhuman mutated sewer monster somehow be more appealing if it was female?

[srmff]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Look at Power Rangers; there are female Power Rangers. He-Man has Teela and She-Ra. Star Trek has Janeway, Dax, Seven, Torres, etc etc etc.

I will admit that I was drawn most to the female power rangers. Other than that, all that I can remember about Power Rangers is laughing at them being constantly knocked over in a big dramatic fashion before getting up again straight away again. It was Dad who laughed about it first though.

However, I preferred He-Man to She-Ra because I just saw her as a female version of He-Man. It's probably why I've had little interest in Batgirl as well. I knew that she there to attract female viewers and I didn't have much interest since He-Man was already there. It just feels forced to me if they have a female ninja turtle since it's pretty obvious what the sole purpose of that introduction is.

The female characters do tend to appeal to me in a male dominated movie or TV show if it doesn't feel forced. I liked Arwen in Lord of the Rings because, as a young girl, I liked that we had similar features like long brown hair, pale skin and blue eyes. She is a character that had her role increased compared to the books but it didn't feel forced to me. She probably did mainly appeal to me because she was a woman. However, I didn't particularly like Galadriel or Éowyn. Aragorn was actually my favourite character though.

When I played Lego Star Wars: The Original Trilogy before seeing the movies, I always played as Leia whenever given the option and the same with Padmé in the other game. However, once I watched the movies, I mostly wanted to play as Luke but still picked Leia now and again to switch things up. The point of that example is that, yes, I was automatically drawn to the female characters when I knew nothing about them, but once I actually watched the movies, it was Luke who I liked the most. I think that I might have kept playing as Padmé in the other game since there wasn't one character who I liked in particular above all others.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

I'm gonna disagree with all these guys.

Ninja Turtles needs a female turtle. What other female characters in TMNT are there for girls to like? April is boring. Renet is barely ever involved. Karai? But she's not a mutant (or she's a stupid snake mutant).

My daughter likes TMNT; she likes typically girly things. And I know my child; she would be even happier with TMNT if there was a girl Turtle.

It's high time people stopped clinging to things they "identify" with & just enjoy characters & stories for what they are. TMNT doesn't "need" to appeal specifically to anyone. It's already proven its merit as an almost 40 year old powerhouse that reaches all ages, genders, races, religions, etc, as-is. If someone doesn't like something because they don't see themselves in it, they can move on to the next thing.

[CyberCubed]

To be honest female characters tend to be written very poorly in franchises primarily aimed at boys. For the reason they either fall into one of two categories, either the helpless damsel in distress character who falls in love with the main character, or the opposite end of the spectrum where the girl is "grrrrrrl power" and she is strong and always right and is always smarter than all the boy characters and can do no wrong.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

and she is strong and always right and is always smarter than all the boy characters and can do no wrong.

Because franchises aren't loaded up with her Gary Stu equivalent, huh?

[Dejablue]

Originally Posted by Powder

It's high time people stopped clinging to things they "identify" with & just enjoy characters & stories for what they are. TMNT doesn't "need" to appeal specifically to anyone. It's already proven its merit as an almost 40 year old powerhouse that reaches all ages, genders, races, religions, etc, as-is. If someone doesn't like something because they don't see themselves in it, they can move on to the next thing.

Wise words. Until TMNT, in its 40 years of existence, starts shifting into trends you don't like. Then its "sh*t go back".

[superstaff]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

I'm gonna disagree with all these guys.

Ninja Turtles needs a female turtle. What other female characters in TMNT are there for girls to like? April is boring. Renet is barely ever involved. Karai? But she's not a mutant (or she's a stupid snake mutant).

My daughter likes TMNT; she likes typically girly things. And I know my child; she would be even happier with TMNT if there was a girl Turtle.

As a female fan, I don't feel like there needs to be a female turtle in order to get me to enjoy the series, and I disagree that the female TMNT characters are boring. Based on your response, it seems you only saw 2012 since you're only citing the 3 girls who appeared regularly.

In the wider TMNT franchise, I've enjoyed many characters including April, Renet, Karai, and also Alopex, Ninjara, Oyuki, Shadow, Irma, Aska, and so on.

No offense, but just because your daughter has specific tastes doesn't mean all women share those, and believe the same thing. There's many women here who enjoy the TMNT just the way they are, and don't need a female turtle to pander to them.

[IndigoErth]

Agree. Being guys doesn't mean the Turtles aren't or can't be relatable to women.

Female characters don't need and shouldn't be there to pander to female viewers, they should just there because, you know, women exist and make up half of the world.

That's really the only props I have to give to 'Rise,' that women, esp mutant/yokai ones, were there in a bit more decent number simply because it was normal that they exist. I feel that most versions of the TMNT can add at least one thing of value to the franchise, and for this one that aught to be it.

Credit to 2012 for trying a little harder eventually, but the issue to me is that for the most part it was all otherwise/initially normal looking girls...with a twist. Yawn. While going overboard on the number of mutants in a series is unnecessary, one reoccurring non-Turtle mutant woman ally who isn't just a one-off character would be nice to see. Doesn't have to be there all of the time, just now and then. Hell, I wouldn't even care if she was simply an adult character who becomes a (platonic!) friend of Splinter and mostly stays out of the general plot line.

[Leo656]

The debate about TMNT needing more TMNT characters of substance isn't new, nor is the debate about whether there should be a fifth (female) turtle, or at least a female mutant character for the kids to play as or relate to or whatever. I remember at least one instance where someone wrote a letter to the Archie comic about that specific topic, their daughter being a big fan of TMNT but outside of April or Irma there was no "in" for any of the little girls (and that April and Irma, let's be honest, were not the most compelling characters in the first place). I'm pretty sure that Ninjara was created for the comic at least in part to address some of those issues, and I always thought she was pretty cool. Problem being that not a lot of people read that book or were exposed to her character, she never appeared on the cartoon(s), and most of the "female-appeal" characters in the FW cartoon were only there once or twice.

So yeah, while I dismiss the "need" for a "Fifth Turtle" be they male OR female, and while it doesn't affect me personally, I can see how the TMNT brand maybe had a bit of a problem with female representation/inclusion for a lot longer than other brands have.

I mean to carry the MOTU football from CKD, that brand was 100% a "male power fantasy" by design, but Strong Female Characters were always included from the beginning. Even before She-Ra, Teela was always there and portrayed as He-Man's equal, and then when the cartoon show tweaked the canon a bit, they made her Captain of the Royal Guard as well as Prince Adam's bodyguard, both rather lofty positions, and while He-Man occasionally had to rescue her she was more often than not portrayed as highly capable in her own right and not just the "Damsel" trope. He-Man was literally gifted the Power of Grayskull in the first place by the Goddess/Sorceress, who mentored him throughout every version of the canon even when she wasn't able to physically get involved, so she's literally Why/How the story happens. Evil-Lyn might be as powerful as Skeletor, and possible even more ruthless and cunning. And so on. She-Ra was a more deliberate attempt to spin the brand off for little girls specifically, BUT little girls were already watching the show and playing with some of the toys because of things like this.

Whereas for the longest time, TMNT only had April, and to a lesser extent Irma, and both of them were... eh, not "useless" obviously but I can see how a little girl TMNT fan would aspire to something greater than what either of them represented. So sure, while I don't specifically agree with the need for a "Fifth Turtle" in any regard, I do kinda agree that it took a while for the brand to really get moving in the direction of depicting more, "better" female characters, sure.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by superstaff

As a female fan, I don't feel like there needs to be a female turtle in order to get me to enjoy the series, and I disagree that the female TMNT characters are boring. Based on your response, it seems you only saw 2012 since you're only citing the 3 girls who appeared regularly.

Actually, no. Never watched more than an episode or two of 2012. But it seems like it put the most effort into female characters, and in the first three or four seasons... there's April, Karai, and I think that's it?

Originally Posted by superstaff

In the wider TMNT franchise, I've enjoyed many characters including April, Renet, Karai, and also Alopex, Ninjara, Oyuki, Shadow, Irma, Aska, and so on.

Ah, I did forget about Ninjara. I TRY to forget about Alopex.

Originally Posted by superstaff

No offense, but just because your daughter has specific tastes doesn't mean all women share those, and believe the same thing. There's many women here who enjoy the TMNT just the way they are, and don't need a female turtle to pander to them.

I fully understand and agree that just because my daughter has specific tastes doesn't mean it's best for all females. There are enough examples of female fans to show that the property can survive without a fifth female Turtle.

At the same time, I think that it's a good idea from a corporate point of view AND that it could be done well. I think most everyone is too quick to hate on the concept, just because of the two female Turtles ever done (Venus and Jennika), both are pretty terribly written and portrayed.

Originally Posted by Leo656

The debate about TMNT needing more TMNT characters of substance isn't new, nor is the debate about whether there should be a fifth (female) turtle, or at least a female mutant character for the kids to play as or relate to or whatever. I remember at least one instance where someone wrote a letter to the Archie comic about that specific topic, their daughter being a big fan of TMNT but outside of April or Irma there was no "in" for any of the little girls (and that April and Irma, let's be honest, were not the most compelling characters in the first place). I'm pretty sure that Ninjara was created for the comic at least in part to address some of those issues, and I always thought she was pretty cool. Problem being that not a lot of people read that book or were exposed to her character, she never appeared on the cartoon(s), and most of the "female-appeal" characters in the FW cartoon were only there once or twice.

So yeah, while I dismiss the "need" for a "Fifth Turtle" be they male OR female, and while it doesn't affect me personally, I can see how the TMNT brand maybe had a bit of a problem with female representation/inclusion for a lot longer than other brands have.

I mean to carry the MOTU football from CKD, that brand was 100% a "male power fantasy" by design, but Strong Female Characters were always included from the beginning. Even before She-Ra, Teela was always there and portrayed as He-Man's equal, and then when the cartoon show tweaked the canon a bit, they made her Captain of the Royal Guard as well as Prince Adam's bodyguard, both rather lofty positions, and while He-Man occasionally had to rescue her she was more often than not portrayed as highly capable in her own right and not just the "Damsel" trope. He-Man was literally gifted the Power of Grayskull in the first place by the Goddess/Sorceress, who mentored him throughout every version of the canon even when she wasn't able to physically get involved, so she's literally Why/How the story happens. Evil-Lyn might be as powerful as Skeletor, and possible even more ruthless and cunning. And so on. She-Ra was a more deliberate attempt to spin the brand off for little girls specifically, BUT little girls were already watching the show and playing with some of the toys because of things like this.

Whereas for the longest time, TMNT only had April, and to a lesser extent Irma, and both of them were... eh, not "useless" obviously but I can see how a little girl TMNT fan would aspire to something greater than what either of them represented. So sure, while I don't specifically agree with the need for a "Fifth Turtle" in any regard, I do kinda agree that it took a while for the brand to really get moving in the direction of depicting more, "better" female characters, sure.

At least someone understood my points and examples.

[Leo656]

I mean, part of why I, personally, have no general problem with female mutants being created (or even "shipped" with the TMNT, if written well enough) is because you have to get more chicks in there SOMEwhere and make them an important part of the story. Even when April is handled well - which is rare - she's still One Character and that may have flown once upon a time but nowadays people expect/demand more. And I don't have a problem with there being more female characters of substance even in a property rooted in "male power fantasy", so long as it's written and handled well.

But I prefer they be more thoughtfully handled than the "fifth Turtle" scenario. Venus and Jennika feel lazy and uninspired; with Ninjara and Alopex, Kala or Mona Lisa, or whoever, it's at least a bit more creative than "One of the pre-existing main characters, but with a vagina".

More female characters? Fine. More female mutants, even, for the sake of being creative? Also fine. But a "Fifth Turtle", to me, whether male OR female, is the laziest possible method of expansion, and I can't see how I'd ever be a fan of it. I like to see people work a *little* harder than that. If a four-year old can come up with it, then it's probably a weak idea.

Which isn't to say that it's "worthless" as an idea, or that it could never conceivably be executed in a semi-interesting fashion... but it DOES betray an inherent lack of creativity, generally speaking.

[Dejablue]

Its interesting to me how different this fandom takes to 5th turtle with anger and vitriol vs Power Ranger fans who love the 6th Ranger. I wonder why it is so different?

[Leo656]

I think it's because Tommy had his own theme song.

[IndigoErth]

Maybe I'm wrong since I haven't watched it, but doesn't the Power Rangers cast also change over the years? Plus the various themes. Change kind of looks natural to that one? The Turtles, on the other hand, are more set in stone for decades and people clearly don't have much appreciation for anything that goes too far past the normal portray of that group.

[Leo656]

Yeah, it's a bit easier to cover all the "representation" bases with a group where the cast of characters rotates often.

Like on the surface, a person can look at almost any "current" or contemporary roster of the Justice League, see that there's generally only one, maybe two women on the "Core 7" group, and find fault with that. But if you dig deeper, the team goes back so long and the roster changes so frequently, that you quickly come up with a list of dozens upon dozens of female characters who were team members, so the "only one or two at a time" thing doesn't seem like much of an actual problem in the grander scheme of things.

Meanwhile, groups like the Power Rangers and Justice League are super-hero groups with a rotating roster of characters, while TMNT is not. The fact that they were created to be a family of Just Four kind of precludes any addition (or subtraction, for the sake of argument).

I will say, though, in regard to something I forgot to comment on earlier, I think it was MikeandRaph who mentioned it, but I do allow for a "fifth Turtle" in the sense of them being a villain, or antagonist, such as Slash. "Dark Doppelgangers" are one of my favorite fictional tropes, as played out as they might be. But at least it's a touch more creative than just sticking another member on the "team" for the heck of it.

The Turtles' "family" was created as Four (male) Turtles, and the (still-living) creator has gone on record many times that changing that dynamic is disrespectful towards his original vision, and I happen to agree with that.

[CyberCubed]

You'd be surprised how much of the general public to this day doesn't know that Batman has had multiple Robin's. To most people Dick Grayson is the one and only Robin, and if you told people there are 4+ Robin's most casual fans could not name any of the others.

I think it goes to prove the original characters usually have mainstream popularity, and the additions outside of the core fanbase are usually not well known. It's odd because these days Tim Drake and Damian do get a lot of appearances outside of comics in cartoons, animated movies and videogames, etc...but still only Dick is recognizable to the general public.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

You'd be surprised how much of the general public to this day doesn't know that Batman has had multiple Robin's. To most people Dick Grayson is the one and only Robin, and if you told people there are 4+ Robin's most casual fans could not name any of the others.

I think it goes to prove the original characters usually have mainstream popularity, and the additions outside of the core fanbase are usually not well known. It's odd because these days Tim Drake and Damian do get a lot of appearances outside of comics in cartoons, animated movies and videogames, etc...but still only Dick is recognizable to the general public.

I'm not surprised that the general public is unaware there is more than one Robin. Anyone but Dick haven't really shown up much outside of comics and if they aren't reading comics, how the hell would they even know Tim and Jason are different characters?

If we bring the conversation back to characters like Jennika and Lita, I doubt they're going to show up much outside of IDW. To be honest, I don't even know if they're gonna stick around in IDW either. To me it seems like they're either gonna get cured when the mutant town crap has somehow gotten even more stale than it already was and it's time to put it to a merciful end, or whatever writer who replaces Sophie don't care about using them and just writes them out of the story.

[Leo656]

It probably helps that Dick Grayson was Robin for FORTY f*cking years before they replaced him, and that none of his successors have lasted anywhere near as long before they in turn have been replaced. Status Quo Bias is on Dick Grayson's side, basically.

Jason Todd was introduced in 1983, and was dead by 1988. Not even long enough to be "The Robin of a generation". He also looked exactly like Grayson, which made him redundant for merchandising purposes. All of those lunchboxes in the '80s could very well have Jason instead of Dick on their packaging, for all we know, but who could tell the difference? In-story, Batman didn't want anyone to know that there was a new Robin, so it made sense, but as far as making Jason a distinct character it was difficult since he more or less was Dick's twin from a visual sense.

Tim Drake became Robin in 1990, and lasted until he was replaced by Damien in 2009. That's a good run, but it didn't help that he wasn't given much of a push outside of comic books. Most adaptations try and recount the events "in order", which meant that the cartoon, for example, had to start the Robin saga with Dick Grayson (even though they made him a composite character by giving him Tim's costume) before they could conceivably get to Tim; and by the time they got to Tim, interest in the cartoon was waning and he didn't get much of a chance to do anything. Making him yet another composite by giving him Jason's personality wasn't much help. The Teen Titans show and the "Batman Forever" movie did the same thing, starting as they should have with "The First Robin" in Dick but giving him Tim's costume since it's more modern and appealing. Basically, Tim suffers in adaptations simply for the fact that no adaptation is going to last long enough to really get around to featuring him properly, since they generally start "at the beginning", which means the Robin they use should be Dick Grayson, despite the fact that in-canon Dick hasn't been Robin for as long as I've been alive. I'm sure that most shows/movies/misc. have had Tim in the creative conversation, but in the sense of "We'll use him when we get there," and in turn they simply don't get there.

Damien's been Robin since 2009, so we're over ten years in for him. But it's not like a ton of ancillary merchandise has been produced in that time. No cartoons to speak of, and only a few video games, and so on. He was Nightwing for shock value in the Injustice games, but even in that, they completely skip over his tenure as Robin.

Basically, all of the subsequent Robins suffer from the fact that they weren't The First. Since most adaptations start the story at the beginning, they'd have to cover a long period of time before they could get past Dick Grayson in the storyline, and most of them simply won't last long enough to get to cover the Jason Todd or Tim Drake material. And since most "fans" depend on cartoons, video games, and other adaptations for the sake of following these characters, if they're not represented in those cartoons and video games then they simply won't be as well-known to the casual audience.

The only way for Tim or Damien to ever be more prominently known as Robin in the mainstream, would be for more one or several adaptations to just jump right over Grayson and all the others and start with Tim or Damien or whoever as Robin right from the start. And there's a lot of reasons why they're probably not going to do that, since if you lose Dick you also lose Nightwing.

In theory, a cartoon show for example could try and work everyone in there by plotting out about six seasons in advance, and give Dick, Jason, and Tim two seasons each as Robin. But such long-term planning is not usually how these things work, and furthermore, even if they did there's no guarantee the show would survive long enough to actually execute that idea. And then we'd be right back where we started.

When you're "first to market", you're always gonna have an edge over your successors, predecessors, and the like. There's simply no getting around it.

[Allio]

Originally Posted by Dejablue

Its interesting to me how different this fandom takes to 5th turtle with anger and vitriol vs Power Ranger fans who love the 6th Ranger. I wonder why it is so different?

You have your example off Tommy was introduced 16 episodes into a franchise that didn’t have a status quo vs TMNT had a status quo of 11 years (Venus) and 35 (Jennika)

This is more the same as people hating Scrappy doo.

Now as for new Boom power Rangers? Yeah, they suck. Drakkon is a crap character and the brand new Green Ranger, Matt, so far has actually been worse than Jennika and the new green suit is actually fan-art as it’s the bat in the sun (as opposed to Jenn just looking like Sophie’s oc.