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Old 08-05-2020, 07:12 AM   #341
PizzaPower1985
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...I see you missed my disclaimer about whether I?m optimistic about the movie...

Also, I?ll answer your question that you intended to be rhetorical: I?m 28. I get that this is a heavy subject, but can we please refrain from personal attacks, especially since I (and likely others) do agree with you on some points?
I ATTACKED NO ONE! I simply was curious to ages here and am just asking questions... IF that makes me a jerk for trying to get a read on where this fandom's heads are at, I apologize. I will say this... as a 32 year old man I watched the first 2 seasons of 2012... Seriously forced myself to sit through it... AND IT WAS PAINFUL. If some people liked that show and are well passed the age of 20 then my hope for both this fandom and this franchise is wearing thin.
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Old 08-05-2020, 07:26 AM   #342
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I will say this... as a 32 year old man I watched the first 2 seasons of 2012... Seriously forced myself to sit through it... AND IT WAS PAINFUL.
Okay. Good to know you hated it that much. Only two things I’ll add:

1. I never outright said I liked it: on the contrary, I don’t remember whether it was this thread or not, but I have said that I wasn’t fond of all the bickering in it, which seems to have made up a good chunk of what I did watch. I’ll add onto this and say that 2003 is my favorite era insofar as the cartoons, not 2012.

2. Once again, I feel like Rise is a better example of whether this movie will be too kiddy or not. It’s current, and the only other thing we have that is current is the IDW comics. If we use that as a gauge, then I fear that you may be right about the movie.
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Old 08-05-2020, 08:41 AM   #343
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It would be super impressive if Rogen did not go for "Dude Mikey." I kind of feel like he will because he'll feel like everyone will want him to... but whatever.



Eh... it doesn't make me uneasy that he brings that up about doing and digging movies about teenagers. It makes me uneasy that that's the big thing that attracts him to this. Like, everything is to serve and revolve around that one element.

For me? Ideally, in terms of focus?

35% teenage
65% ninja

(the "mutant" and "turtle" are obviously a given)
I think that's exactly what I was thinking. The worst kind of kids comedy movies came to mind as soon as I saw the emphasis on 'teenager'.
Of course, In the end I hope that it's one of the better variations of TMNT.
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Old 08-05-2020, 09:10 AM   #344
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I don’t think anyone here is bending over backwards to defend this movie. If you are someone who is freaking out about tmnt fans accepting any old thing, you might want to read the thread more carefully. There is merely speculation going on. I haven’t seen one person claim this will be a great or even good movie. Chill.
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As far as the 2012 show is concerned... you missed the point of my argument... my argument was that a professed Mirage fan made that show and it turned out to be a child's cartoon. Was Ciro beholden to the corporation? Of course. Did he have to answer to what they wanted? YES! But he could have easily shifted the tone and spirit of that show into a more mature direction and still marketed it to 12 year olds because it was done 10 years before.
Wait. What was done ten years before? 2K3?

2K3 was no bastion of mature storytelling for big kids. It’s literally Mirage for 10 year olds.

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I think I will just hit up Rogen.
This I like.

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Old 08-05-2020, 09:41 AM   #345
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Wait. What was done ten years before? 2K3?

2K3 was no bastion of mature storytelling for big kids. It?s literally Mirage for 10 year olds.
.
This. Nick seems to be getting all the blame for the kids stigma lately, it also isn't shocking that the first thing a company like this do with the franchise is make a show for their network. Going forward however I get people having concerns about getting anything older now that it is owned by a kids network (technically viacom) I too would like to have something older also.


Back to movies though, so far as getting movies into the adult spotlight,(EDIT: or all ages anyway) I think you might have mentioned this before AquaParade?, cinematic movies have the opportunity to do this as there is a wider range of exposure, so when they fail it's more of a let down.

I don't know what will come here, I hope it isn't going to be the case that after 7 movies there is still only really ONE that most people like. I know the others get love, I am thinking of the larger collective thought I've picked up on here. I might be wrong.

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Old 08-05-2020, 09:57 AM   #346
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This. Nick seems to be getting all the blame for the kids stigma lately, it also isn't shocking that the first thing a company like this do with the franchise is make a show for their network. Going forward however I get people having concerns about getting anything older now that it is owned by a kids network (technically viacom) I too would like to have something older also.


Back to movies though, so far as getting movies into the adult spotlight, I think you might have mentioned this before AquaParade?, cinematic movies have the opportunity to do this as there is a wider range of exposure, so when they fail it's more of a let down.

I don't know what will come here, I hope it isn't going to be the case that after 7 movies there is still only really ONE that most people like. I know the others get love, I am thinking of the larger collective thought I've picked up on here. I might be wrong.

^^^ You're not wrong. We older fans drone on endlessly about our love and adoration for the 1990 movie and tend to hold that as either the only good one or the standard for others to build on/learn from. I myself have a soft spot for its 2 sequels but I dont watch them often. I see that 1990 movie at least every 3 months.

The problem with a lot of us older fans though is, we've seen what TMNT is capable of... We know how great it can be... and then, when it inevitably gets geared towards 3 year olds or 10 year olds, we just have to ignore it and go back to our comics and other favorite bits. It's the fact of knowing TMNT's true potential and seeing it constantly miss the mark that gets a lot of us old fogeys down.
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Old 08-05-2020, 10:28 PM   #347
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2K3 was no bastion of mature storytelling for big kids. It?s literally Mirage for 10 year olds.
Mature compared to the other cartoons in this property.
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Old 08-06-2020, 02:43 AM   #348
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Mature compared to the other cartoons in this property.
I wouldn't agree. It's not even more mature than the original cartoon. It's just more "serious". It still has to be neutered at every corner for a young audience. The banned Baxter episode maybe being an exception, I can't recall.

I'd say 2k12 is the most "mature", but I wouldn't argue that title for any of them, frankly.

And in the context of the convo, I still don't see the reasoning in holding 2k3 up as being much more mature than anything Nick is doing.
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Old 08-06-2020, 04:40 AM   #349
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I have to agree with Aqua 2k3 had some dark themes but one thing it was known for rather infamously is neutered Mirage stories or leaning heavily into the Mysticism part of the franchise. favorite episodes are Notes from the Underground, April's Artifact , Bishop's Gambit and Milk Run
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Old 08-06-2020, 06:15 AM   #350
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You guys have gotta be kidding here. Of course 2K3 was neutered compared to the actual Mirage storylines. That should frankly be obvious. That said, 2K3 is on a whole other level than 2012. The first season of 2012 is incredibly juvenile, the character designs look like they are made for pre-schoolers and they can't go 30 seconds without some bombastic, manic behavior, one-liners etc. 2012 has a lot more in common with the 87 show and, in my opinion, is made for an even younger audience... Of course that's the thing about interpretation... Everyone's is different.

The 2003 show has a lot of jokes too by way of Michelangelo (their funny by the way) but it has a far more (not sure if "mature" is the right word) serious approach overall.

As far as 2003 being a "bastion of maturity" when you compare it to FW, 2012, even the live action PD movies, the stories are better and the show feels like something an adult can watch. The others not so much... But that's my opinion and you know what they say about opinions.

Regardless, IF the Rogen fronted TMNT film is any good, well there ya' go, I'm wrong... But in that snippet of an article, he never once mentioned Mirage or IDW and he never talked about character depth or how deep the story is going to be. The only thing he mentioned was "Teenagers" and instantly I was thinking about the poor turtles being subjected to a Kevin Smith type script with sex jokes, drug references etc. Granted, Nick wouldnt let that happen, but we'll see. My money is on the opposite of Kevin and Peter's Turtles and we probably wont even be lucky enough to get Waltz turtles either.
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Old 08-06-2020, 08:03 AM   #351
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Mike in 2k3 was one of the worst aspects of the show.
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Old 08-06-2020, 09:19 AM   #352
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2k3 Mikey started vaguely annoying, pulling out an occasional joke that did land, but as the show went on he became very mean spirited, completely unfunny and unbearable.

And that was just his personality. His voice started to become grating as well, to the point where by the time Back to the Sewer began, he seemed to almost scream practically every line he had, didn't seem to care about anyone else and pretty much gave up on jokes and just annoyed people.
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Old 08-06-2020, 09:42 AM   #353
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Mikey in 2012 is also played being mentally deranged, but at least it's actually in a quirky, somewhat funny way, done my a more competent voice actor. I'm not interested in pairing the shows up against one another, but just for example, because I do feel that even the humor is probably more "mature" in 2012. Like both characters are brain dead, but I find the jokes to actually be clever in 2012. Probably more subjective than anything.
Hm, a mature joke, eh...

Mikey: We're not that kind of sub...

Anywho, imo, season 1 Mikey in 2012 acted kind of dumb. In season 1, he didn't care if the others thought of him as stupid (Monkey Brains ep...Splinter was pointing out how Mikey was a good fighter because he fought naturally and instinctively...but didn't think and why Donatello had trouble because he would overthink). Later on, though, you found out that it did bother him and he hated being underestimated by the others...like in that ep with the giant wasps. He hated that the others never took him seriously. The episode with the Shellacne also showed that. The other three treating him like the baby...but that was something I found completely realistic when it comes to families. The youngest being babied or overlooked because the older siblings always did stuff for them by default. It's like my mom and her sisters. My mother grew up the oldest of the four sisters she grew up with. My grandmother babied the youngest of them. She always did. She never did this with my mother or her other daughters, only the youngest one even in adulthood...almost like she underestimated her. Seeing the three treat Mikey that way didn't really surprise me...

Oh yeah, Mikey was also more easily distracted early on, like a child with ADD...not so much ADHD...so mentally deranged doesn't really work here, I feel (I've worked with kids that have ADD and ADHD). He even got distracted by a wad of gum at one point (season 1). They changed that about Mikey as the show went on. He was still quirky, but was able to focus when necessary. Look at his weapons of choice. The nunchucks and the kusarigama. Both weapons, you need a lot of focus and concentration to master compared to the other weapons, imo. It's ironic how the one who has the most trouble with focus, was given the weapon that required the most to master it.

Maybe I'm over thinking it...just don't feel that Mikey's character later in the series acts the same way he did in the beginning. They all changed in some ways...felt Leo's progression was the most interesting, though.

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Old 08-06-2020, 11:05 AM   #354
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You guys have gotta be kidding here. Of course 2K3 was neutered compared to the actual Mirage storylines. That should frankly be obvious. That said, 2K3 is on a whole other level than 2012. The first season of 2012 is incredibly juvenile, the character designs look like they are made for pre-schoolers and they can't go 30 seconds without some bombastic, manic behavior, one-liners etc. 2012 has a lot more in common with the 87 show and, in my opinion, is made for an even younger audience... Of course that's the thing about interpretation... Everyone's is different.

The 2003 show has a lot of jokes too by way of Michelangelo (their funny by the way) but it has a far more (not sure if "mature" is the right word) serious approach overall.

As far as 2003 being a "bastion of maturity" when you compare it to FW, 2012, even the live action PD movies, the stories are better and the show feels like something an adult can watch. The others not so much... But that's my opinion and you know what they say about opinions.

Regardless, IF the Rogen fronted TMNT film is any good, well there ya' go, I'm wrong... But in that snippet of an article, he never once mentioned Mirage or IDW and he never talked about character depth or how deep the story is going to be. The only thing he mentioned was "Teenagers" and instantly I was thinking about the poor turtles being subjected to a Kevin Smith type script with sex jokes, drug references etc. Granted, Nick wouldnt let that happen, but we'll see. My money is on the opposite of Kevin and Peter's Turtles and we probably wont even be lucky enough to get Waltz turtles either.
Actually Mikey's jokes are one of the worst aspects of 2k3, if you ask me. I find his jokes to be more juvenile than probably anything found elsewhere in TMNT cartoons. He is just plain stupid.
Mikey in 2012 is also played being mentally deranged, but at least it's actually in a quirky, somewhat funny way, done my a more competent voice actor. I'm not interested in pairing the shows up against one another, but just for example, because I do feel that even the humor is probably more "mature" in 2012. Like both characters are brain dead, but I find the jokes to actually be clever in 2012. Probably more subjective than anything.

I respect your opinion, but I'm still not hearing what exactly makes the 2k3 show more mature than 2012 or FW. I appreciate that it adapts the Mirage stories, but there is no sense of danger, drama, or adult themes in those 2k3 adaptions that aren't present in 2012. They're all for kiddo's of the same age, imo. I do find that the 2012 show at least has some wit, charm, clever writing thrown in though.

Yeah, the Seth Rogen movie might be bad, but again, no one here really said otherwise. Your posts indicated you are eager to understand why tmnt fans are willing to swallow buckets of crap because it came in a "TMNT" container, and that sort of thing does happen, but I also feel like it's a trend to come into these threads now and scream that question into the clouds, when no one in the thread is even participating in that behavior. Everyone is just speculating as far as I can see.

I guess I've gotten a bit tired of the seemingly "contrarian" behavior here that isn't really all that contrarian anymore. It's def become a thing around here to hop into threads for upcoming tmnt projects and get all aggressive towards anyone who is not immediately lambasting the project, while implying that anyone who chooses to speculate, rather than condemn, is just willing to bend over and take any product handed to them. It's simply not the case.
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Old 08-06-2020, 11:39 AM   #355
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I wouldn't agree. It's not even more mature than the original cartoon. It's just more "serious". It still has to be neutered at every corner for a young audience. The banned Baxter episode maybe being an exception, I can't recall.

I'd say 2k12 is the most "mature", but I wouldn't argue that title for any of them, frankly.

And in the context of the convo, I still don't see the reasoning in holding 2k3 up as being much more mature than anything Nick is doing.
Batman TAS was also a toned down version for kids. The episode "The Demon's Quest" was loosely based on the 70s issues "Daughter of the Demon" and "The Demon Lives Again." There were some differences but it was still a good episode, at least imo. I've come to understand that whenever a comic book story gets adapted into another media, there will be elements that will be toned down for younger audiences (unless it gets a direct-to-video release, Viacom please get on that!) but for me personally, it helps they are still able to get away with what they can, though sometimes not with the best results. For me, 2k3 was more so a show that used Mirage as a template as opposed to actually being exactly like Mirage. Which you could also say the same for the 1990 film which was Mirage-influenced but still contained elements from the FW tv series and 2k12 which takes influences (dare I say too many, imo) from Mirage, FW, 2k3, the 90s films, etc.

And for my preference, I rather have a product that's closer to a brand's source material (Mirage) regardless if they alter it or not than changing it's identity completely (FW, PD, Rise). Again this is just my opinion.
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Old 08-06-2020, 12:16 PM   #356
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Batman TAS was also a toned down version for kids. The episode "The Demon's Quest" was loosely based on the 70s issues "Daughter of the Demon" and "The Demon Lives Again." There were some differences but it was still a good episode, at least imo. I've come to understand that whenever a comic book story gets adapted into another media, there will be elements that will be toned down for younger audiences (unless it gets a direct-to-video release, Viacom please get on that!) but for me personally, it helps they are still able to get away with what they can, though sometimes not with the best results. For me, 2k3 was more so a show that used Mirage as a template as opposed to actually being exactly like Mirage. Which you could also say the same for the 1990 film which was Mirage-influenced but still contained elements from the FW tv series and 2k12 which takes influences (dare I say too many, imo) from Mirage, FW, 2k3, the 90s films, etc.

And for my preference, I rather have a product that's closer to a brand's source material (Mirage) regardless if they alter it or not than changing it's identity completely (FW, PD, Rise). Again this is just my opinion.
Yeah, but Batman: TAS was of much higher quality than TMNT 2k3. Everything is subjective, but my opinion on that is pretty drastic, which is why I highlight it.
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Old 08-06-2020, 12:22 PM   #357
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Debatable but to each his own. Just thought I'd have a say in this.
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Old 08-06-2020, 12:29 PM   #358
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Yeah, but Batman: TAS was of much higher quality than TMNT 2k3. Everything is subjective, but my opinion on that is pretty drastic, which is why I highlight it.
I'll agree there. Absolutely. 2K3 is not BTAS but if BTAS is the purest version of Batman outside of Detective and Batman comic books, then perhaps 2K3 is the purest version of TMNT outside of Mirage? IDK... but I did argue that in my latest blog so....

The problem 2K3 had was that, as an established brand, the TMNT had to go into a new cartoon with 87 tropes as well as Mirage tropes. And out popped 2K3... a great show minus the theme song.
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Old 08-06-2020, 01:02 PM   #359
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Little bit of info from Rogen:

?As a lifelong fan of Ninja Turtles, weirdly the ?Teenage? part of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles was always the part that stuck out to me the most. And as someone who loves teenage movies, and who?s made a lot of teenage movies, and who literally got their start in their entire profession by writing a teenage movie, the idea of kind of honing in on that element was really exciting to us. I mean, not disregarding the rest, but really using that as kind of a jumping off point for the film.?

https://collider.com/seth-rogen-teen...eboot-details/
I'm not sure I like the sound of this.
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Old 08-06-2020, 09:30 PM   #360
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Can't say nick is Darker because it suffers from tone whiplash....A lot. And 2k3 is so serious it becomes melodramatic. Can't say that people dying makes it dark because that happens in both series. Wanna say Baxter rotting away is dark but that's not the only time that specific thing happens in that version.

Want to say Nick is Dark because it killed a Turtle but then SAINW exist. So the next argument I hear is more people died more often in Nick, But a recent rewatch made me realise the 2k3 Turtles let a lot of people die. Mikey pulls the pin of a grenade clipped to a Triceratons belt and makes a joke about it as he watches him explodes.

Nick has the Turtles watch a guy gets mutated and are unsympathetic about it and kinda make fun of him. Even continue to make fun of him no matter when he appears, and then just abandon him to die by the end of the series.

Long story short just pick one. And on the subject of Mikey? Both are annoying for different reasons and I hate them both. But at least I have some episodes I like that are 2k3 Mikey centric. Nick Mikey centric episodes can be summed up as follows "Turtles think Mikey is an idiot, Mikey proves he is a valuable member of the team." Rinse and repeat until all the way in Season 3.
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