Is Elon Musk right about the left?

[Andrew NDB]

And have they been moving the goal post?

[Leo656]

This even needs to be asked?

[Sumac]

The funniest thing is that Left claim that it is Rights who moved further to the Right.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Sumac

The funniest thing is that Left claim that it is Rights who moved further to the Right.

Yeah, that's total bullsh*t too. If anything the Conservatives have gotten a LOT more liberal over the years.

When I was a kid, it wasn't uncommon to hear a Conservative say out loud that gay people should be locked up and/or beaten to death. Now, even if they don't love the idea, you're far more likely to hear them say something like, "Well, I don't get it... but I guess they're not hurting anybody."

As fewer and fewer people are still holding onto religion, you're naturally seeing conservative values become divorced from the draconian Biblical type of conservatism. When being a "Republican" and being a "Christian" had to be 1:1, you saw a lot more ugliness coming out of the conservatives because they were still parroting whatever they'd read in their thousands-of-years-old books of fairy tales.

As much of that has gone away, people are mostly conservative for reasons of economics and self-defense. Common Sense Stuff. It all comes down to wanting to keep the money you've worked for, and wanting to keep drugs and violence away from places where people are raising kids. That's modern-day "conservatism". Some people are still anti-abortion, but again, that's mostly a holdover from the strict religious types. Like with being gay, most conservatives look at abortion as a personal choice issue; "Do what you want but don't necessarily expect me to agree with it."

The Liberals, on the other hand, are getting farther and farther Left every day and are seemingly no longer living on the same planet as everyone else.

Basically, everyone has gotten more Liberal in recent years, but the Liberals have gotten VERY Liberal. I think it has something to do with narcissism, and needing to be "against the Right" as a perpetual state of being. Basically, "If people on the Right are getting more Liberal, we need to be REALLY Liberal! If conservatives are gonna start being okay with gay marriage, we need to start talking about trans stuff with 4-year olds!" And so on.

[mrmaczaps]

Seeing as leftists are mostly kid diddling pedos... yeah.

[Galactus]

Nah. The political right has completely lost their mind. I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise when large swathes of the them literally believe that most people they disagree with are satan worshiping pedophiles that drink blood to stay young. Or that Donald Trump won the last general election and totally has a plan to come back seize back power and impose totalitarian rule (which they see as a good thing) and it's going to happen any day now. I'm sure that people will come back at me that this is a small minority but you can't with a straight face say that when thousands of these whack jobs stormed the US capital to try violently overthrow the government and even killed police. That's how insane they've gotten, for decades Conservatives were the party of law and order and supporting the police but apparently blue lives don't matter if it's their own side they are fighting then cop killing is okay.

Sure, there are some sane, moderate Conservatives like described above and maybe technically there is more of them but how moderate are they when they are perfectly fine palling up with the insane ones? When Trump rallies were filled with banners saying things like 'make America white again' they'd say "we don't agree with those guys" but they were still fine rubbing shoulders with them and turning a blind eye to their racism.

This is were the right's new found sense of tolerance doesn't measure up. Sure, they may not have anything personal against other races, sexualities or genders but they are perfectly willing to turn a blind eye or even support the people that are actively looking to harm them. Remember there were good people at Charlotteville, they may have killed someone and been chanting "jews will not replace us" but they were just defending statues". I'm not sure I buy even moderate Conservatism's libertarian tendencies. Look at what happened to Dave Rubin, the guy who is has built his career trying to prove that modern Conservatism is okay with gay people as long as they don't make too much of a fuss about it. As soon as he says that he and his husband are going to have a child by surrogate all his fans swarm on him calling a deviant. Candace Owens who has built her career on proving that it's actually the left that are racists has to retract her opinion on liking the Superbowl performance because her own supporters were piling on her. A lot of times the masks just slips. I've debated enough people on this board who start out "look I don't have a problem with LGBTQ people I just don't understand or agree with particular aspects of it then it quickly descends into calling all LGBTQ people mentally ill, sexual deviants or trying to be trendy or something.

Sure, the Left is also moving further Left but when you think in America the farthest they go is Bernie Sanders - a guy that in most of the world would be considered a moderate is it really that far left? Even if the trend continues is it really a bad thing? You may disagree with a fairer redistribution of wealth or that the state should have a greater role in things like health care but that doesn't present a fundamental danger to anyone compared to the right's sudden embrace of weirdo conspiracy theories and violent insurrections.

[Leo656]

Your crazy uncle isn't your whole family, and most sane people understand that.

Also, "fairer distribution of wealth"? This is where you immediately lose anyone who works a real job for a living. What you somehow call "fairer distribution of wealth" with a straight face is nothing less than simple robbery. Stealing from people who worked for what they have, and giving it to people who simply don't want to pull their fair share. And that's absolute f*cking bullsh*t, and I say that as a poor person. I may be poor, but I've worked for everything I have. If I were rich, I'd be damned if someone is going to come and take half of my money and give it to some lazy bum. You better bring a gun, that's the only way you're getting it.

And that's a major fracture issue between Liberals and Conservatives and it's the one where you'll never see any conservative give an inch. YOU deserve what you worked for. If you CHOOSE to give some of it up of your own volition and feelings of charity, that's on you. But nobody has the right to MAKE you give any of it away, just because other people have less.

There's this idea that Liberals have that everyone with a pulse deserves a free living just because they're breathing. No. That isn't how it works. You earn your right to breathe, or you die. You fall behind? Pick up the pace. Work harder. Find a way. Can't make it work? Oh well. Planet's (over)full, let the weaker ones die off. Natural Selection. It works. It's not "kind", but it is indeed the natural order of things.

But no, let's just steal money from working people because they had the audacity to be successful. Let's just steal from the successful people, and give it to the bums, so the bums can have a nice clean place to live while they stick their free needles in their arms.

Nah, f*ck that. I never worked and paid taxes so some vegan with a useless Gender Studies degree can have a nicer place to live than I do. Let the failures fail, and let the successful people enjoy the life they've EARNED.

Rich people already pay pretty much all of what the government collects in taxes, anyway. They pay a smaller percentage compared to the working class and the poor, but it comes out to be astronomically more dollars-and-cents wise than what anyone else pays. And yet some people think it's fair that they be forced to give up more than HALF, just to subsidize the poor people. Why even go to college and get a good job, then? Let those other people figure out how to beat the system. Or let 'em twist.

I've been broke, and I've been homeless, and you learn the hard way that life simply isn't for the weak. We don't need to be coddling people by playing Robin Hood. All that sh*t does is teach people that you can survive by settling and not working hard. You can't. You earn your keep or you die. THAT'S how it works.

"Fairer distribution of wealth". My ass. The only "fair distribution of wealth" would be to abolish mandatory taxation altogether and make all paying of taxes completely voluntary. But in that case, NOBODY would ever choose to pay ANYTHING... because whether they admit it or not, MOST people agree with me that in a perfect world nobody else would ever have the right to just show up and demand any of YOUR hard-earned money.

All Taxation Is Theft. Period. I never agreed to this, they told me how it was gonna be. And if I don't agree, I go to jail. Well, that isn't "fair". That's literally bullying and theft. "Do what we say or we'll f*cking spank you." Awfully close to "Hand over your wallet or I'll shoot you," isn't it?

Wanting to keep what you've earned isn't a crime, but they made it one. Because they know, for a fact, that if given the choice nobody would EVER give up a damn dime of what they earned. You HAVE to steal from people to keep the system going because Altruism Is A Myth.

"Fairer distribution of wealth". Jesus. Here's what's fair: People who work keep the bulk, and people who don't work get Nothing. That's what's "fair".

[mrmaczaps]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Your crazy uncle isn't your whole family, and most sane people understand that.

Also, "fairer distribution of wealth"? This is where you immediately lose anyone who works a real job for a living. What you somehow call "fairer distribution of wealth" with a straight face is nothing less than simple robbery. Stealing from people who worked for what they have, and giving it to people who simply don't want to pull their fair share. And that's absolute f*cking bullsh*t, and I say that as a poor person. I may be poor, but I've worked for everything I have. If I were rich, I'd be damned if someone is going to come and take half of my money and give it to some lazy bum. You better bring a gun, that's the only way you're getting it.

And that's a major fracture issue between Liberals and Conservatives and it's the one where you'll never see any conservative give an inch. YOU deserve what you worked for. If you CHOOSE to give some of it up of your own volition and feelings of charity, that's on you. But nobody has the right to MAKE you give any of it away, just because other people have less.

There's this idea that Liberals have that everyone with a pulse deserves a free living just because they're breathing. No. That isn't how it works. You earn your right to breathe, or you die. You fall behind? Pick up the pace. Work harder. Find a way. Can't make it work? Oh well. Planet's (over)full, let the weaker ones die off. Natural Selection. It works. It's not "kind", but it is indeed the natural order of things.

But no, let's just steal money from working people because they had the audacity to be successful. Let's just steal from the successful people, and give it to the bums, so the bums can have a nice clean place to live while they stick their free needles in their arms.

Nah, f*ck that. I never worked and paid taxes so some vegan with a useless Gender Studies degree can have a nicer place to live than I do. Let the failures fail, and let the successful people enjoy the life they've EARNED.

Rich people already pay pretty much all of what the government collects in taxes, anyway. They pay a smaller percentage compared to the working class and the poor, but it comes out to be astronomically more dollars-and-cents wise than what anyone else pays. And yet some people think it's fair that they be forced to give up more than HALF, just to subsidize the poor people. Why even go to college and get a good job, then? Let those other people figure out how to beat the system. Or let 'em twist.

I've been broke, and I've been homeless, and you learn the hard way that life simply isn't for the weak. We don't need to be coddling people by playing Robin Hood. All that sh*t does is teach people that you can survive by settling and not working hard. You can't. You earn your keep or you die. THAT'S how it works.

"Fairer distribution of wealth". My ass. The only "fair distribution of wealth" would be to abolish mandatory taxation altogether and make all paying of taxes completely voluntary. But in that case, NOBODY would ever choose to pay ANYTHING... because whether they admit it or not, MOST people agree with me that in a perfect world nobody else would ever have the right to just show up and demand any of YOUR hard-earned money.

All Taxation Is Theft. Period. I never agreed to this, they told me how it was gonna be. And if I don't agree, I go to jail. Well, that isn't "fair". That's literally bullying and theft. "Do what we say or we'll f*cking spank you." Awfully close to "Hand over your wallet or I'll shoot you," isn't it?

Wanting to keep what you've earned isn't a crime, but they made it one. Because they know, for a fact, that if given the choice nobody would EVER give up a damn dime of what they earned. You HAVE to steal from people to keep the system going because Altruism Is A Myth.

"Fairer distribution of wealth". Jesus. Here's what's fair: People who work keep the bulk, and people who don't work get Nothing. That's what's "fair".

<insert standing ovation gif here>

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by Leo656

All Taxation Is Theft. Period. I never agreed to this, they told me how it was gonna be. And if I don't agree, I go to jail. Well, that isn't "fair". That's literally bullying and theft. "Do what we say or we'll f*cking spank you." Awfully close to "Hand over your wallet or I'll shoot you," isn't it?

I'm legitimately curious, are you an anarchist? I know you don't like labels, but I do get the impression that you hate all forms of government and enforcerd hierachy, which is what anarchists do.

The problem with no taxes, is that there is no government whatsoever if taxes are abolished. Government is needed for the most basic public services like roads, the water supply, the legal system, a police force, correctional facilities, the military, traffic management, the list never stops.

I don't see why one would hate all government and authority when you likely are heavily reliant on them. Have you not used a single government service in your life?

Sure, government does involve coercion, but if everyone is left to their own devices with no central authority and order, there is just utter chaos and insanity. I, as an authoritarian, find nothing uncomfortable about the reality of government coercion as long as they are enforcing the right values.

You on the other hand, I do feel that you feel very disturbed by the very concept of government itself because you uphold freedom as a central pillar of life. As long there is government, there is no absolute freedom, its always one or the other as they are two contradictory concepts.

When I am forced to choose between the two opposing concepts, I will choose government every single time, and with no regrets. I can't speak for you, but I refuse to believe in a concept which does not exist as an absolute, and is routinely violated by the biggest government that claims to champion it.

[Leo656]

Of course I've relied on government services, I was on unemployment for two whole years. But I earned that, I worked nearly non-stop for 20 years paying into the system. I'm entirely who those programs are ostensibly there for. I worked every day until some fake pandemic happened and they told me I couldn't work anymore. It wasn't up to me. Therefore, they owe me. "They" took my job away, therefore "They" in turn are obligated to help me support myself. That's how it works.

And no, I'm not an "anarchist" in the strictest sense, given that I fully recognize that without order, society collapses. You need People In Charge. I simply prefer that organization be as small as possibly, consisting only of the most absolutely necessary individuals and systems, and that they mostly tend to keeping things running and otherwise mind their f*cking business. They shouldn't be telling me what my opinions ought to be about groups of people, they shouldn't be telling me how to think when the cops end up killing some criminal who had it coming... none of that. Keep the trains running on time, maintain the roads, make sure the schools have supplies, and otherwise, Mind Your Business and leave me the f*ck alone. That's what my relationship to "the government" should be, ideally. "Here's the percentage of my paycheck that you've extorted from me, now get out of my goddamn sight and leave me alone until April of next year."

I do as a rule hate all institutions and positions of authority, though, yes. My family hails from Ireland, one of the most oppressed groups of people in modern human history. If you are Irish, and you don't hate anyone with a badge or a flag, then something is wrong with you. Having some Redcoat jackass kick your door in, rape your wife, steal your sh*t and shoot you in the head if you try and stop them will breed a healthy distrust of authority over several hundred years.

So, as both an Irish person and as an American, let me be perfectly clear: I can absolutely loathe every single individual in a position of so-called "authority", and recognize that these people and their positions are in fact Evil - because "evil" is what it is when you oppress people, steal their money, keep them on their knees and say it's all for "the greater good" - and yet understand that they are indeed "necessary" for the world to keep on spinning.

This is where the term "necessary evil" comes from. Governments, by definition and deed, ARE evil. They are anti-individual and thus anti-human. However, you are right, if you don't force people to behave, no one ever would.

It's complicated. I'm a complicated person. But as a general rule, I do loathe anyone who holds any position of "authority" and any and all institutions that would claim to hold power over any individual. Good on you for paying attention. I can hate everything they represent while still acknowledging that most people are stupid cattle who need to be led.

Likewise, of course I recognize that taxes are "necessary". But it's just a fact that not a single human being would pay them if they weren't threatened into doing so. Therefore, All Taxation Is Theft no matter what anyone says. They literally HAD to make paying taxes a law because they know nobody would if given the choice. Completely blows the whole idea of altruism apart. There is no "altruism" and there is no true charity; people only "pay their share" when they're forced. Everyone is only out for themselves, what puts me above other people is that I completely admit it. I do not care about my neighbor, my neighbor doesn't pay my bills. If they can't eat, that's Their Problem, not mine.

That's how it works. People pretend it isn't. Well, you know how I feel about people believing in fairy tales.
------------------

Side Note: The drunken idiot downstairs is Right This Second screaming about how rich people should be forced to give up their money, at gunpoint if need be. F*cking Democrats. How serendipitous.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I think the key difference between our philosophies is that I have no problem with the concept of coercion in of itself, whereas you do. And coercion works too, since human behaviour can be influenced and manipulated by painful external stimuli, and this is proven over and over again in our everyday lives.

When handled in a certain way, our bodies will react, and there is nothing about it that we can do. Hence, governments use coercion throughout all the time to get what they want, and given enough time and resources, they always get what they want.

However, there is one thing that no government cannot control. Our immaterial consciousness, which is the real "us".

"We" are not our bodies. Everything that "we" do in life, we do to mentally satisfy this sense of self which is constantly looking for answers, and exists in a realm that cannot be measured by touch, smell, taste, sight and sound.

It is in pursuit of mentally satisfying this "sense of self", or soul as I like to call it, that I adopt a religious worldview, as it provides a perfectly logical and absolute explanation for all phenomena. Thus, I don't find the reality of government coercion, or even human suffering to trouble my sense of self, which exists completely independently of these occurences.

Does it mean that I don't try to reduce suffering where I see it, or don't cry when I see something disturbing or extrenely horrid? Absolutely not.

If I see a man weeping on the street, my instincts will compel me to race towards him and try to reduce his sadness. But occurences like the man weeping cannot be influenced by my thinking, only by my actions in the flesh.

It is letting go of the illusion of our mind needing to have control over the physical world, that opens up one's worldview to the possibility that coercion and authority is normal, and that we don't need the freedom to watch unlimited Netflix or play the latest video game to satisfy our sense of self and experience true contentment. This is why I am not troubled by the concept of a creator who allows suffering to happen, as no amount of pain in this world can change our inner peace and true sense of self, unless we allow it to.

Always fascinating to talk to you, Leo. Now, I need to get back to writing my book as opposed to spilling its contents on these forums.

[Leo656]

Bullying and theft are Wrong. Doing it while wearing a suit or a badge does not make it Right.

Religion exists to keep people poor, weak, and ignorant, while promising them "It will all be worth it once you're dead." A likely story. It makes perfect sense why so many governments use religion as the backbone. They share a common interest. "Keep people on their knees, and tell them all their misery and suffering is worth it because it's for The Greater Good." Preposterous.

You seem like a nice enough person but I find nothing good at all about anything you purport to believe in. That's the nicest thing I can say. And there's plenty of things I would say if they were going to be said to anyone else.

[Mayhem]

The starting diagram is wrong, until recently the “left” and “liberals” wre still right of centre on that political spectrum diagram.

[Bahamut810]

Originally Posted by Galactus

Nah. The political right has completely lost their mind. I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise when large swathes of the them literally believe that most people they disagree with are satan worshiping pedophiles that drink blood to stay young. Or that Donald Trump won the last general election and totally has a plan to come back seize back power and impose totalitarian rule (which they see as a good thing) and it's going to happen any day now. I'm sure that people will come back at me that this is a small minority but you can't with a straight face say that when thousands of these whack jobs stormed the US capital to try violently overthrow the government and even killed police. That's how insane they've gotten, for decades Conservatives were the party of law and order and supporting the police but apparently blue lives don't matter if it's their own side they are fighting then cop killing is okay.

Um, the left has done most of that and then some.

They accuse republicans of all but enslaving *everyone* that is not white or male (who they want to murder as well). Hillary Clinton won that election and she totally should run again, then she can push her totalitarian ideas on white men. They also occupied and tried to steal US territory (CHAZ, George Floyd Square) for weeks. I would consider occupying US territory a much larger sin then distupting congress for a few hours.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by Leo656

And that's a major fracture issue between Liberals and Conservatives and it's the one where you'll never see any conservative give an inch. YOU deserve what you worked for. If you CHOOSE to give some of it up of your own volition and feelings of charity, that's on you. But nobody has the right to MAKE you give any of it away, just because other people have less.

Funny thing is that its never works in practice - when you take wealth from rich and divide it between the poor, they surprisingly remain poor, its just they are slightly less poorer than before, but not so much, they can live as rich.

Originally Posted by Galactus

Nah. The political right has completely lost their mind.

Its funny, coming from the side, which believes in insane conspiracies, like CIA being secret Nazis or that everyone who disagree with their values are a Fascist. Or that kids should be taught about sex and sexuality at the age of 4.

Originally Posted by Galactus

Or that Donald Trump won the last general election and totally has a plan to come back seize back power and impose totalitarian rule (which they see as a good thing) and it's going to happen any day now.

Once again, quite ironic, coming from the side, which vehemently believes in "de-platforming" and "canceling" people for the wrong opinions and, which representors periodically quip that everyone who don't support their views should be "re-educated" or jailed.
But nope, it is only Right who support totalitarian rule! Of course.

Originally Posted by Galactus

I'm sure that people will come back at me that this is a small minority but you can't with a straight face say that when thousands of these whack jobs stormed the US capital to try violently overthrow the government and even killed police.

And what people should think about thousands of thugs throughout the country burning and looting **** of random people?

Also, if "insurrectionists" were trying to "overthrow" government, they did a pretty **** job at it. Like, on a scale from "its time to get serious" to "pretty good", their attempt can't be rated as "not even trying".
People don't overthrow governments by leisurely walking around and making selfies.

Originally Posted by Galactus

That's how insane they've gotten, for decades Conservatives were the party of law and order and supporting the police but apparently blue lives don't matter if it's their own side they are fighting then cop killing is okay.

Once again your ideological myopia is evident. Which side screamed "defund the police" and blamed them for being criminals, while they were just ding their job?

Originally Posted by Galactus

Sure, there are some sane, moderate Conservatives like described above and maybe technically there is more of them but how moderate are they when they are perfectly fine palling up with the insane ones?

Like American Democrats cozying Communists?

Originally Posted by Galactus

When Trump rallies were filled with banners saying things like 'make America white again' they'd say "we don't agree with those guys" but they were still fine rubbing shoulders with them and turning a blind eye to their racism.

Its almost like Left didn't do a lot to alienate regular people with **** like CRT....hm....

Originally Posted by Galactus

This is were the right's new found sense of tolerance doesn't measure up. Sure, they may not have anything personal against other races, sexualities or genders but they are perfectly willing to turn a blind eye or even support the people that are actively looking to harm them. Remember there were good people at Charlotteville, they may have killed someone and been chanting "jews will not replace us" but they were just defending statues".

Links?

Originally Posted by Galactus

I'm not sure I buy even moderate Conservatism's libertarian tendencies. Look at what happened to Dave Rubin, the guy who is has built his career trying to prove that modern Conservatism is okay with gay people as long as they don't make too much of a fuss about it. As soon as he says that he and his husband are going to have a child by surrogate all his fans swarm on him calling a deviant. Candace Owens who has built her career on proving that it's actually the left that are racists has to retract her opinion on liking the Superbowl performance because her own supporters were piling on her. A lot of times the masks just slips.

You are mixing two different issues here to mask impotency of your arguments, my dear.

Originally Posted by Galactus

I've debated enough people on this board who start out "look I don't have a problem with LGBTQ people I just don't understand or agree with particular aspects of it then it quickly descends into calling all LGBTQ people mentally ill, sexual deviants or trying to be trendy or something.

And once again you are obscuring true nature of the issue, just to present yourself and your side as persecuted victims - a hallmark of terrorists and zealots, by the way.

You are "forgetting" that most people here don't hate LGB and actually on their side. So-called trans and non-binary helicopters are people, who a lot of folks have problems with here. And, yes, unlike normal LGB, trans and other "xers" are mentally ill attention whores and posers. Its just how it is and doesn't make anyone Homophobic. Unless you want to say that LGB who don't like trans are Homophobic...somehow.

Originally Posted by Galactus

Sure, the Left is also moving further Left but when you think in America the farthest they go is Bernie Sanders - a guy that in most of the world would be considered a moderate is it really that far left?

That guy whose followers wanted to sent everyone to re-education camps? This is moderate to you?
Boy, I don't even want to know who is far-Left to you, in this case.

Originally Posted by Galactus

Even if the trend continues is it really a bad thing?

Yes, because, it never worked in real life and only led to totalitarian dictatorships, which crumbed in several decades and returned back to the pure Capitalism?

Originally Posted by Galactus

You may disagree with a fairer redistribution of wealth or that the state should have a greater role in things like health care but that doesn't present a fundamental danger to anyone compared to the right's sudden embrace of weirdo conspiracy theories and violent insurrections.

Nah, you just gonna teach White people to hate themselves and consider themselves "a second-rate eternally evil people, who can't repent for their sins", thanks to CRT, children will be educate that, if they want to change sex at the age of 10, they are free to do so and various rapey freaks and psychos, who want to mutilate their bodies will be able to change laws accommodate their insanity.

Oh, and also, cities turning into piles of trash, because, ordering drugged hobos and druggies to move away their camps from public places is "inhuman", thugs constantly robbing everyone, because, self-defense is inhuman and they are "just poor kids who have no choice". And everyone who disagree with all of the above is just fired for being "intolerant".

But no, no danger for normal people at all.

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

However, there is one thing that no government cannot control. Our immaterial consciousness, which is the real "us".

**** they can not.
Learn about any totalitarian country you adore so much and learn how and why they did existed, ignorant kid.

[Leo656]

Yep. Many studies have shown that simply handing over more money to poor people does nothing to elevate their station, because for one reason or other most poor people do in fact keep themselves there, even if it's unintentionally. Many of them simply never learned how to handle money or live within their means at all, so when you give them a handout they tend to handle it poorly.

Look how many lotto jackpot winners end up with even less than what they started with. Someone literally drops millions of dollars in their lap and within 5 years they're broke again, 99% of the time. That right there should thoroughly disprove any notion about "redistributing wealth". You can give someone all the money in the world, it won't do any good if they're still lazy or stupid.