Censorship in Videogames

[Turo602]

We can't judge the creeps, the psychopaths, the pedophiles, the drug addicts, and the like because other people in our society are just as wrong? That's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard...

I don't give two f*cks if a culture in dipsh*tville says it's okay to molests children, wrong is wrong and I'll despise them as much as I want to. There is no justification of the sexualization of children. Real or fake, you're an asshole if you get your jollies from that, regardless of culture. For a video game or any other media to promote such a thing is despicable. Instead of digging so deep into other people's cultures, how about you study psychology and tell us how exactly it's okay for children to be put in these situations or how it's normal for adults to view children in such a provocative way. Do you understand the ramifications of this sort of thinking or the trauma a child could suffer?

Honestly, you have to be real idiot to think that it's not our place to judge such acts and depictions just because a group lives that way... How else are we supposed to evolve as a species without making changes to the way we live and see things? We've gotten so far and are all the more better for it.

[Powder]

So apparently, Duckie feels that because it exists in the world, we should just allow pedo-attracting content to be accessed with ease and put into mainstream media.

Wowwwwwwww

[The Stryker]

I like how according to this person you have to be some sort of crazy right-wing religious nut to see something wrong with sexing up 9 year olds.

Never mind that no one here brought up religion or anything even close to that. Anything to take a swipe at the big evil mainstream machine man! Have sex with kids! Don't tread on me!

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Turo602

We can't judge the creeps, the psychopaths, the pedophiles, the drug addicts, and the like because other people in our society are just as wrong? That's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard...

I don't give two f*cks if a culture in dipsh*tville says it's okay to molests children, wrong is wrong and I'll despise them as much as I want to. There is no justification of the sexualization of children. Real or fake, you're an asshole if you get your jollies from that, regardless of culture. For a video game or any other media to promote such a thing is despicable. Instead of digging so deep into other people's cultures, how about you study psychology and tell us how exactly it's okay for children to be put in these situations or how it's normal for adults to view children in such a provocative way. Do you understand the ramifications of this sort of thinking or the trauma a child could suffer?

Honestly, you have to be real idiot to think that it's not our place to judge such acts and depictions just because a group lives that way... How else are we supposed to evolve as a species without making changes to the way we live and see things? We've gotten so far and are all the more better for it.

Funny, I don't recall saying ANYTHING about molesting children being okay. And taking the time to objectively look at the subject of how children are treated both in our own society and elsewhere makes me an idiot? Oookay. How about you actually take the time to READ what I post? Nowhere did I say abuse was okay. As I mentioned before, early marriage is hardly the same thing as some guy getting his jollies off of photos of little kids or a priest or teacher molesting kids under their care. But heaven forbid a family arranges its daughter's marriage to a guy ten years older. If it was common practice for parents to arrange marriages in this country like it is in many places elsewhere, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Are you saying it IS our place to judge how others live? That's just- sad. As a Wiccan, that actually kind of offends me, because that's exactly how mainstream religion views my faith, as something evil and unnatural, without ever taking time to understand what it truly is. You know, with reason and tolerance. Because that's what I'm talking about here. Apparently, using logic, reason, and objectivity to show how flawed the idea of censorship of games and such is, is tantamount to being a pedophile. WOW. Way to make assumptions. My faith in humanity's basic intelligence just plummeted.

Originally Posted by Powder

So apparently, Duckie feels that because it exists in the world, we should just allow pedo-attracting content to be accessed with ease and put into mainstream media.

Wowwwwwwww

Nope, not what I'm saying at all. I simply don't feel that one can ever draw the line on censorship, so it should not exist at all. I never said anything about making it freely available, but if people want it, they are going to find it. I believe Leo656 said much the same thing on the first page- and I agree with him. I believe in freedom of expression. I'm a writer, so it's kind of important to me. I may not always agree with the content of such expression, but that doesn't mean I'm going to try to dictate what someone else can or can't see. It's that simple.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by The Stryker

I like how according to this person you have to be some sort of crazy right-wing religious nut to see something wrong with sexing up 9 year olds.

Never mind that no one here brought up religion or anything even close to that. Anything to take a swipe at the big evil mainstream machine man! Have sex with kids! Don't tread on me!

Unfortunately, the ones who cry the loudest on this subject usually ARE religious conservatives. Don't you watch FOX News? Or ANY news? We're bombarded with that religious dogma masquerading as sociel morality every day. And it's disgusting how people would excuse the censorship that would in theory also include things like Sailor Moon, Card Captor Sakura, and other perfectly innocent fare. Lolicon isn't the problem here- it's the attitude that if it makes someone uncomfortable, it must be evil and never see the light of day. It's a GAME, fer pity's sake! Good grief, the only reason I mentioned religion in the first place was to point out where most of that thinking comes from. It was the same way in the 80's and 90's- mostly religious conservative watch-dogs barking up the wrong tree about games causing kids to want to kill themselves or others. Now, apparently, these same games make kids (or others) want to become pedophiles? Yeah, THAT makes sense- NOT.

[discordiatookie]

So I read through this thread before googling the game. It's as simple as this: any game that has you rubbing the breasts and crotch of what looks like a child in order to make their clothes come off is f*cking sick. There's no grey areas there - it's wrong.

That said, the w*nking off the system is all kinds of hilarious...

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Funny, I don't recall saying ANYTHING about molesting children being okay. And taking the time to objectively look at the subject of how children are treated both in our own society and elsewhere makes me an idiot? Oookay. How about you actually take the time to READ what I post? Nowhere did I say abuse was okay. As I mentioned before, early marriage is hardly the same thing as some guy getting his jollies off of photos of little kids or a priest or teacher molesting kids under their care. But heaven forbid a family arranges its daughter's marriage to a guy ten years older.

People like you made me lose faith years ago... You're a complete dumbass if you failed to see the correlation between what I said and the nonsense you're spewing. You take interchangeable examples literally in order to create the illusion of a point. I've read enough of your hot garbage to know exactly what it is you're saying. I also like how naive you pretend to be. Do you honestly believe child marriages don't involve sexual intercourse? You can disguise child marriage all you like, it's still just as bad, freak.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

If it was common practice for parents to arrange marriages in this country like it is in many places elsewhere, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

WOW! You don't say? You'd probably be pregnant at 12 if that were the case... It's a good thing we have opportunities, wouldn't you agree?

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Are you saying it IS our place to judge how others live? That's just- sad. As a Wiccan, that actually kind of offends me, because that's exactly how mainstream religion views my faith, as something evil and unnatural, without ever taking time to understand what it truly is. You know, with reason and tolerance. Because that's what I'm talking about here. Apparently, using logic, reason, and objectivity to show how flawed the idea of censorship of games and such is, is tantamount to being a pedophile. WOW. Way to make assumptions. My faith in humanity's basic intelligence just plummeted.

You want to use logic and objectivity? How's this? We all judge, get over yourself. Your little witchcraft beliefs hinder you. It limits your mind and makes you see the world in an inhumane way. I know this world isn't free. We're conditioned to believe many things, one of those things being the difference between right and wrong. The truth is, there's no such thing. It's just in our nature to behave a certain way. No matter how many standards are set, how many rules are given, no one can ever change our nature, just control it. I'm intelligent enough to see that because I'm not a savage. This isn't the dark ages, we have opportunity and live civilized. Without these limiting rules I wouldn't be as educated as I am today. I wouldn't have developed any morals or the common sense to understand that sexualizing children is wrong. Unlike you, who believes there's nothing wrong with the distribution of child molestation simulators as long as you don't buy it because it happens around the world... F*ck you.

[TMNT_Guy]

MsMarvelDuckie, you're obviously a thinker, so please hear me out.

A discussion is about hearing other people's opinions on various subjects and learning why they think what they believe. It is not about proving who is wrong and who is right, it's about understanding one another. I don't agree with everything you're saying, but at the very least I can try to understand why you believe what you do. All because someone reacted negatively to your posts doesn’t mean you should react the same to them. Acting sarcastic and rude will just push people away from you. Agree to disagree, your voice has been heard.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

As a Wiccan, that actually kind of offends me,

Don't you understand that what you're saying also offends other people? Everything in this topic is just opinions; you cannot get angry at people for not thinking same as you when you equally do not think the same as them.

You have been saying nasty things about religion even though no one else has brought it up. You say that sexualizing children does not turn people into pedophiles, that these people were already emotionally disturbed to begin with. But the same goes for religion, the extremes who give it a bad name are also equally emotionally disturbed.

You're doing exactly what you're preaching against, judging other people for their beliefs, opinions, and culture.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

My point here is that we can't judge other peoples' ways of life

No one is saying we need to go invade Japan because they have this kind of media, what their saying is that in our western society we do things differently. It doesn’t make us better or worse, just different, like the Japanese. As such, when something is released here from Japan we have the right to view it with our values and ethics, just as the Japanese have the right to view our media with their ethics and values. You see? Japan and America don't agree with each other, but we still live in peace with one another.

But, hey, that's just my opinion; I could be wrong.

[Candy Kappa]

If I remember correctly, the minimum sexual age by law in Japan is 13, in some areas. So by that definition the game even in its country of origin is not okay as you can fondle characters that don't only look like minors but actually are minors, of the age of 9?

Seems like a clear case to me, no need to drag out cultural differences and debate the horribleness of western cultures "demonizing" other cultures for abusing and mutilating children, which is a real issue. This game clearly is wrong on many levels.

[Katie]

Looked at the game. Disgusting. No place for that.


As a female the rest of the discussion offends me.

Females and child brides as commodities? Awful. MsMarvelDuckie you are a female and you should understand that women have more value than being possessions of a man. Do you think girls who are subjected to female genital modification are proud to go through that "for their culture"? Or that a 8 or 9 year old child bride can understand or consent to sex on their wedding night? ( you did point out that this is an expectation).

Sexual depictions of children? Someone stated the game involves rubbing breasts and crotches of young girls to get them to remove their clothes. I looked it up and saw that aspect too. That ok to you? Rubbing off kids to get them naked?

Only religious conservatives find it offensive? I'm very progressive and a staunch liberal and your comments accepting this offend me.

It's just a game? One that pedophiles can use to justify culturally their deranged mentality. A game where they are rewarded for disgusting behavior.

Being Wiccan has no matter in this. I am highly offended by your comments just accepting cultural suppression of women.

Do yourself a favor and leave this conversation.

[Peanut]

This has turned into a public stoning, which is OK because it's culturally acceptable elsewhere in the world.

[sdp]

Censorship is almost always a bad thing. The Bravely Default costume changes aren't any "better" than the originals anyway. The other game based on the descriptions I didn't even want to look it up so I'll refrain from talking about that. however Japanese culture is indeed different from ours and there's a big cultural barrier that makes it difficult to just judge. Do I think it's right for countries in the middle east to marry kids? Of course not, but it's not as simple as "our culture is right", Western culture has plenty of "iffy" things that are widely acceptable as well. Japanese culture is definitely weird and while I love aspects of it other aspects like what has been mentioned here is definitely off putting and alienates me. Debating culture something not easily had on internet forums, I have a class about culture this semester right now and my teacher is really good and makes you question what you know.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I'd like to respond to all those who mistakenly think my aversion to censorship means I actually condone this game. (or anything of the sort) Let me assure you I DO NOT. My argument is simply THIS: NO person or group has the right to decide what anyone else can or can't see or enjoy. I don't approve of child-porn or anything of the kind (said it before, but no one is seeing that, obviously. Do I need to write it in bigger text?) and I NEVER said I APPROVE of child-brides- just that it exists and is a part of life in many parts of the world, which was just an EXAMPLE of cultural differences that we can neither understand nor have the right to condemn. And for those who think I say these things out of ignorance or naivite, WRONG. I'm WELL aware of how wrong child-abuse is- from personal experience. I could tell some horror stories that would have many of you up in arms at the things I've had happen TO ME. So get off the high horses, I know the difference.

Also, none of what I said about the religious aspects of this were meant to decry any religion as a whole. I'm not against it, per se- just the ridiculous and often extreme things done in its name. What sickens me is how some use it as an excuse to promote their own agendas over the rights and freedoms of everyone else. Censorship does NO ONE any good. If you don't like it, don't look at it. Simple. But don't try to say that because something is morally wrong, it shouldn't exist based on your own beliefs. That is ALSO wrong. I'll explain why below. My own beliefs simply mean I have a very different perspective on the issue than most people- I've seen first-hand what it's like to be on the side that is demonized. Been called Satanic and worse, by folks who really should know better, just because of ignorance and intolerance that in this day and age- in our supposed enlightened society- should be a thing of the past for everyone. But morality is the fist thing people always claim when censorship is mentioned, and it's almost always said in the same breath as religious values. They go hand-in-hand for most people.

Okay, so let's look at this from another angle then. I thought about it a bit, and realized that no one seems to see where I'm coming from with my views. First, let me say clearly I AM NOT DEFENDING THAT GAME. AT ALL. What I AM defending is the RIGHT of people to be able to play/see/read whatever floats their boat, EVEN IF I (or anyone else) find it personally offensive. My POINT in all this was to show how ridiculous it is to censor something based on our own world-view. Why? Because EVERYONE has different ideas of what is offensive, and what is dangerous smut and trash to one person- or group- is harmless and "normal" to someone else. That's all.

The REASON I am so virulently against censorship IN ANY FORM, is this: throughout history, some of the worst and most tragic examples of human ignorance and mindless hate have been committed through the use of censorship. Let me give a few examples. (Which is all I've been doing all along. I NEVER said I APPROVED of the practices I've mentioned before- only that they exist and are part of the way of life of various cultures very different from ours- and with different values. Never claimed to LIKE or CONDONE ANY of it.)

There are so many horrible examples of the stupidity fostered in the name of "saving" people from "dangerous" materials that it's hard to even know where to begin, but here goes:

Library of Alexandria: While parts of the larger library were burned accidentally during Julius Caesar's (and later Aurelius) attack on the city, in 391, the Serapeum Temple housing many of the scientific and pagan works at that time was destroyed when Emperor Theodosius made paganism illegal. The temples in Alexandria were sacked, and holy relics and books alike were burned. All in the name of one man's insistence on making such things illegal. And apparently, this was at the solicitation of Theophilus, the Bishop of Alexandria at that time. So because a ruler listened to a religious nut, an entire trove of knowledge, wisdom, and literature was lost. This after others had ALREADY seriously depleted the Great Library's stores BY ACCIDENT. Julius could perhaps be excused on grounds that he was trying to burn down the Egyptian fleet and docks, and the fire got out of control. But Theophilus and Theodosius did it purely out of censorship.

The Spanish Inquisition: Among its other many atrocities committed in the name of religion (like torture, killing cats, and confiscating property of suspected heretics) the Church also banned and even burned many books on mythology, pagan practices, "obscene poetry", and even medicine! Why? To stamp out heresy. In the Middle Ages and even later, medicine was mainly practiced by midwives, "wise women", and herbalists, many of whom wrote about their treatments. Because the Church authorities (after writing their OWN book on detecting and rooting out witchcraft and heresy) believed these to be pagan practices (which many were- they were handed down over generations) any books concerning them were confiscated and destroyed along with other materials the Church found objectionable. This was not just ONE event, but MANY, over a period of many years.

Germany: In the period from WWI until WWII, Germany was responsible for a number of book-burnings, primarily by the Nazis. Jewish, anti-Nazi, and "degenerate" books were burned, along with literary works. The German Army even burned the Leuven University Library TWICE! Once in WWI, and again in WWII. Talk about overkill.

And even more recently, McCarthy-era burnings of communist books, southern burnings of Beatles' albums, and even various cities in the US burning Harry Potter books, as well as burning of non-approved Bibles, music, and books in Canton North Carolina were all done because someone found them offensive. And let's not forget Huck Finn, banned in many schools for being "racist".

And just to show how utterly silly it is, in 1931, Lewis Carroll's Alice In Wonderland was banned in China's Hunan Province, for simply depicting anthropomorphized animals acting like humans. George Orwell's Animal Farm has been banned in multiple times and places since it was written, and his book 1984 was banned in the Soviet Union in 1950, and in the US and UK in the 1960's. Catholic leaders in Lebanon banned The Da Vinci Code in 2004(also banned in Samoa and the Solomon Islands), and Lebanon also banned The Diary of Anne Frank for portraying Jews, Isreal and Zionism favorably. Frankenstein was banned in South Africa in 1955 for "obscene or indecent material". Frankenstein??! REALLY?!


And finally, there is one that occurred in my own hometown, that was not only a big deal there, but affected me personally. In 1994 (my Junior year) a parent of a student in The Colony HS in the Lewisville ISD tried- and succeeded- to ban Dracula from the curriculum of the school district's LEAP(Learning Enrichment Academic Program) classes. She read the INTRODUCTION to a specific printing of the book, written by someone else as his own opinions and observations regarding the book's content and meaning, and blew a gasket. She NEVER read the book itself. Interesting side-note to this is that the same year, the movie Bram Stoker's Dracula came out, and she apparently assumed that everything in it was also in the book. (It's not.) I was a student in said program, and we also read the book, as part of an on-going study for that year of "the dark side of man". We also read Frankenstein, Portrait of Dorian Grey, Jeckle and Hyde, many of the Grimm's Fairy Tales (and I DON'T mean the sweet, watered-down Disney versions- these were the original scary, "why do we tell these stories to kids?" versions.) and other stories of the dark side of human nature and the arch-types of good vs. evil. And these were all "classic" literature.

Long story short, because of ONE person flipping out over reading JUST the book's introduction (and the irony of this is that she was angry because they read it near Christmas, while our own class did so at Halloween) the book got booted from the core reading list and those who wished to read it for class after that had to get parental permission. For DRACULA, of all things. She claimed the program was brainwashing and corrupting the students, teaching them to be devil-worshippers, etc. It was utterly ridiculous, but she got it removed. And the kicker? The SAME woman also threw a fit over students in CHS Health class watching Flatliners in class that same year. Because, according to her, it promoted and condoned suicide. Uh, no, it doesn't. It's a movie about exploring what happens after death- by purposely "dying" and being brought back to tell what they saw. And these were high school students, well capable of forming their own opinions and knowing the difference between real-life and a movie. Or a book. Or, I dunno, heck, even a video game!

(And the epilogue to this is that the LEAP student body of all three high schools in the district ended up writing letters to city officials as well as the local newspaper in protest of her wanting to have it removed. We were unsuccessful in having the decision reversed.)

And now you all know EXACTLY why I will not EVER support censorship of ANY kind. The moment you open that door for ONE thing, you open it for almost anything else someone finds offensive. Because where does one draw the line? You can't. EVERYTHING is offensive to someone. (as LEO656 said earlier, I believe.)

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Dort, wo man Computerspiele verbrennt, verbrennt man auch am Ende Menschen!

[Peanut]

Give it up, clown.

[XERO]

This is reminding me of the "Cartman Joins NAMBLA" episode of South Park.

Bottom line, sh*t like this isn't cool or acceptable. It traumatizes the children that are being victimized and molds their minds into thinking it's the "normal" aspect of life. Then they potentially grow up committing the same thing on other kids. Or they end up making offensive games, like the one being talked about in this thread.

I'd be surprised if there was a section about it on GameFaqs or some sh*t. There's no means to defending or condoning that. It simply isn't right. Just because it's probably in the Bible doesn't mean it's justified. Have a conscience. There's a difference between supporting it and accepting it. It just sounds like you're leaning towards the latter.

[Papenbrook]

It seems that Square Enix has gotten the message, and has now made considerable progress with Bravely Default II.

Spoiler:

Let's hope that more companies follow suit.

The sexualization/objectification of youth should not continue.

[Sumac]

Oh no, bunch of pixels are sexy!! Thousands of women will die because of that!
Need to censor them fast or lil' Timmy will become serial rapist!!

But when women sell their bodies for money to be used as f4cktoys - its brave and stunning!! YAAAAAZZ QUEEEENNNZZZ!!

Honestly, some people want to make me vomit in disgust with their priorities.