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Old 08-04-2020, 05:32 PM   #321
IndigoErth
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I do agree that 2012 did pretty well in an attempt to go "younger," though not without it's own failings (esp on Mikey being a bit too juvenile and never maturing a little), but still a decent, enjoyable show and for the most part and didn't go too overboard on that... though it seems to have opened a Pandora's box for Nick wanting to continue further in that direction.

If this movies goes too on nose to make them into stereotyped caricatures, I fear it may mostly end up being 'Rise' with a new look.

If they just made them like the 2003 who could get to playing around sometimes (though still often in ways that an adult can still relate to), that would be fine. But I doubt that's likely.

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Old 08-04-2020, 06:49 PM   #322
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Which, again, if we're talking about the TMNT, they really shouldn't be anything remotely like (normal human teenagers). So that's less of a "positive" thing and just a thing.
Indeed. Why do I feel uneasy about Rogen's comments?
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Old 08-04-2020, 07:55 PM   #323
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I do agree that 2012 did pretty well in an attempt to go "younger," though not without it's own failings (esp on Mikey being a bit too juvenile and never maturing a little), but still a decent, enjoyable show and for the most part and didn't go too overboard on that... though it seems to have opened a Pandora's box for Nick wanting to continue further in that direction.
It would be super impressive if Rogen did not go for "Dude Mikey." I kind of feel like he will because he'll feel like everyone will want him to... but whatever.

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Indeed. Why do I feel uneasy about Rogen's comments?
Eh... it doesn't make me uneasy that he brings that up about doing and digging movies about teenagers. It makes me uneasy that that's the big thing that attracts him to this. Like, everything is to serve and revolve around that one element.

For me? Ideally, in terms of focus?

35% teenage
65% ninja

(the "mutant" and "turtle" are obviously a given)

By virtue of them not really ever being able to be "teenagers" as we think of them. In fact, their age is sort of irrelevant, whether it's in the title or not. Whether they're 15 or 30, I don't imagine they'd behave wholly differently if they're just stuck in a sewer training day after day to kill a guy one day. Maybe a little more angsty in their teenage years, if that's even a thing biologically in mutant turtles? But then Splinter would just slap them around and it'd be back to doing katas and sh** and that'd be the end of it.
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Old 08-04-2020, 08:16 PM   #324
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I don't know why people seem eager to give the people making this movie the benefit of the doubt given the franchises history of going in the worst possible directions more often than not.

Right here the red flags could not be more obvious. It's a fully animated cgi movie, it's confirmed to be kids movie with an emphasis on them being teenagers. It already sounds like the complete antithesis of what fans want and yet there's still people reaching to find ways why this wont be bad.

Okay so it's cgi but maybe it wont be for kids - okay so they say it's for kids but maybe it wont be dumb - okay so the emphasis is on them being teenagers which sounds dumb but maybe it'll still be good.

The teenage part of TMNT is always been the least relevant part of the whole thing. It only exists because Laird thought that Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles sounded cooler than simply Ninja Turtles. At least they came up with a story and mythology to justify them being mutants but really the only thing teenage about them is...I dunno they skateboard in some of the cartoons sometimes?

If you want to have a scene showing Mikey skateboarding in the sewers that'd be okay, if Leo enters the main room of the lair and Don and Raph are playing a video game sure that'd be okay but making this the emphasis is dumb. Nobody wants this.

Last edited by Galactus; 08-04-2020 at 08:25 PM.
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Old 08-04-2020, 08:28 PM   #325
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Bottom line at this point is we don’t really know what he means by “teenage”.

Seth associates himself with teenage stories, but when you think of them, they all are practically defined by taking place in high school like settings that come with all their own story avenues that we simply won’t have access to while dealing with four turtles.

So I have to assume by “teenage” he means “coming of age”, or based around family, which was really par for the course with the 1990 film. What else could it mean, really?
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Old 08-04-2020, 08:37 PM   #326
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Good point. Probably that is what he means by it. A coming of age story. But that could mean many things in terms of story.

Jeeze... my first worry is that this almost guarantees a love story. Hopefully that's just going to be, like, Casey and April, because the alternatives with the Turtles will probably kill my interest dead in it's tracks.
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Old 08-04-2020, 10:01 PM   #327
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My mind didn?t go there but I sure hope not.

The ?love story? in City at War was pretty well done. Not implying it would be anything like that. Man, if a live action series could only adapt City at War...
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Old 08-04-2020, 10:02 PM   #328
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My mind didn't go there but I sure hope not.
Think, like... "Superbad" but with absolutely no love story. There's no way.
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Old 08-04-2020, 11:08 PM   #329
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I do agree that 2012 did pretty well in an attempt to go "younger," though not without it's own failings (esp on Mikey being a bit too juvenile and never maturing a little), but still a decent, enjoyable show and for the most part and didn't go too overboard on that... though it seems to have opened a Pandora's box for Nick wanting to continue further in that direction.
To me, Mikey did improve and mature a bit. I mean, season 1 Mikey is not as bothersome as say season 2 - 5 Mikey. Season 1 Mikey would get distracted by a wad of gum and had no problem with the others thinking of him as stupid or being called stupid. Later Mikey hated it and being underestimated. The problem the series had in regards to him was consistency and plot convenience.
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Old 08-05-2020, 02:49 AM   #330
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Honing in on the teenage element is not really a red flag. It could be their immaturity/growing pains plays into the story and they must learn to focus to overcome the threat.

That is kind of cliche and probably will not be portrayed super seriously but it could still make a decent movie. It probably wont be the TMNT movie of our dreams but I think it will turn out fine.

I really do not see it being THAT over the top or silly. Even the Nick show was balanced. At the moment I picture it being a typical action/adventure cartoon with some kids humor thrown in.
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Old 08-05-2020, 05:14 AM   #331
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The comments in that article are very telling. Put 2 and 2 together, people. Seth Rogen+"teenage." It means that Seth Rogen and everyone he ever gets involved with can only do one thing.

You wanna make a Western... take inspiration from Western films and John Ford. You wanna make a TMNT film... Take inspiration from Hong Kong/Kung Fu movies... Simple! Throwing stars, espionage, intrigue, ninjas in black ninja suits... It's not that hard.

Except it is... because people in Hollywood dont understand NINJA Turtles. This is not going to be what Mirage/IDW fans want. It's going to be a weed comedy and yeah, there may be zero drug references, but it's still going to make the audience feel like they toked a bunch of herb after they watched the movie or perhaps wish they had done so before seeing it.

There is no way in hell a focus on martial arts-ninja aspects or a deep, philosophical, experimental, engaging story comes out of this. They also wont be smart enough to set it in a pre-gentrified New York. No arcade machines, no pay phones mixed with modern sensibilities, not even a single hint that in 20 years this will be regarded as a timeless classic.

At best, we either get a crappy looking giant cartoon with little or no plot like the 2007 film, or a comedy based around Rogen tropes.

Face it, the only people who ever have a chance at cracking Ninja Turtles are the people who focus on the NINJA aspects of this property. Too damn bad that Peter Laird has left the building.

TEENAGE = COMEDY! And there are still some fans that believe that because its on the big screen, it's gonna be worthy of what Kevin and Peter did.

Bottom line... Ciro Nieli was supposedly a "Mirage fan" and he turned TMNT into a kids cartoon. If a fan like Andrew had been in charge in 2012, would that show have been far better? Oh yeah! Definitely. You know how I know? Because he made a fan work that respected TMNT. And if Andrew had done 2012, we'd be holding it up to the golden light the way we do the 1990 film. Rogen however, doesnt know what he's doing. He's somebody that professes to be a huge comics fan... And yet, he's not going to respect source material... unless of course he defines that as the FW cartoon. Memo to all in Hollywood: TMNT is not a baby's toy.

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Old 08-05-2020, 05:45 AM   #332
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Bottom line... Ciro Nieli was supposedly a "Mirage fan" and he turned TMNT into a kids cartoon. Likewise, Rogen doesnt know what he's doing. He's somebody that professes to be a huge comics fan... And yet, he's not going to respect source material... unless of course he defines that as the FW cartoon. Memo to all in Hollywood: TMNT is not a baby's toy.
What was so wrong with the 2012 series? I like the fact that it incorporated Japanese references and training...they even referenced kujikiri. Given that they were limited in what they could do given that it was a kid's network, I felt they did a halfway decent job with those limitations. Personally, I wouldn't want something completely like Mirage. I like having a mix of elements tossed in. I liked that the 2012 series had elements and throwbacks to different mediums of the franchise, including Mirage, Archie, 2003, 1987, TNM, the original live action films,etc. Were there things about the 2012 series I disliked? Sure, no movie or show is without sin, but the likes outweighed that. Seriously, out of the animated mediums,
Spoiler:
the Nick version is the only one to actually kill the real Shredder by beheading...it wasn't shown, naturally, but the fact that they did it is still surprising. Same with Splinter being impaled and tossed off a building. It was mild, but it was done. And then that whole resurrection thing of Shredder's spirit and Bradford and them going back to hell or wherever.

That still surprises me because this was on a Nick show.


Bottom line, as long as they're aiming the series at a younger audience, there will be restrictions. If this was the 80s before the PG-13 rating, maybe it would have more in it, but that's not the case. They sell toys...you have to have the medium cater to the ones who would be the most interested in the toys that go along with it. It just can't be helped. I'm sure there are more children interested in Ninja Turtle toys than adults, unless they're collectors. I know for me personally, I have no interest in the toys, nor do I collect them.

As for the 2014 movies, I can't help but wonder what audience that was being aimed at.

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Old 08-05-2020, 06:06 AM   #333
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I think I will just hit up Rogen.
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Old 08-05-2020, 07:28 AM   #334
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What was so wrong with the 2012 series? I like the fact that it incorporated Japanese references and training...they even referenced kujikiri. Given that they were limited in what they could do given that it was a kid's network, I felt they did a halfway decent job with those limitations. Personally, I wouldn't want something completely like Mirage. I like having a mix of elements tossed in. I liked that the 2012 series had elements and throwbacks to different mediums of the franchise, including Mirage, Archie, 2003, 1987, TNM, the original live action films,etc. Were there things about the 2012 series I disliked? Sure, no movie or show is without sin, but the likes outweighed that. Seriously, out of the animated mediums,
Spoiler:
the Nick version is the only one to actually kill the real Shredder by beheading...it wasn't shown, naturally, but the fact that they did it is still surprising. Same with Splinter being impaled and tossed off a building. It was mild, but it was done. And then that whole resurrection thing of Shredder's spirit and Bradford and them going back to hell or wherever.

That still surprises me because this was on a Nick show.


Bottom line, as long as they're aiming the series at a younger audience, there will be restrictions. If this was the 80s before the PG-13 rating, maybe it would have more in it, but that's not the case. They sell toys...you have to have the medium cater to the ones who would be the most interested in the toys that go along with it. It just can't be helped. I'm sure there are more children interested in Ninja Turtle toys than adults, unless they're collectors. I know for me personally, I have no interest in the toys, nor do I collect them.

As for the 2014 movies, I can't help but wonder what audience that was being aimed at.
Age and maturity level has everything to do with my argument. Let the brand age with its audience... I'm hitting 35 in less than 2 weeks. Most of us are in our 30's and 40's by now. There are even a few people on the Drome in their 50's and maybe there are even older fans too? How old are you? The majority of us are not kids... There's no problem AT ALL with pulling from any and every incarnation of TMNT. Bring in as much or as little of the kid's cartoons as is needed, BUT... it cannot be directed solely at children just because the property sells toys because TMNT's primary audience are not kids born in 2011 who are now TMNT fans. The primary audience was born in during the Carter and Reagan administrations... A LONG TIME AGO.

As far as the 2012 show is concerned... you missed the point of my argument... my argument was that a professed Mirage fan made that show and it turned out to be a child's cartoon. Was Ciro beholden to the corporation? Of course. Did he have to answer to what they wanted? YES! But he could have easily shifted the tone and spirit of that show into a more mature direction and still marketed it to 12 year olds because it was done 10 years before. Aesthetically, there's no denying that the 2012 show was made for very young children, despite arguments that they delivered dark, less-kid friendly elements on occasion.

WHY is TMNT fandom willing to accept this $h*t? Why does TMNT fandom bend over and salivate when a new cartoon or big splashy movie that's aimed at their kids become reality? Are WE so perpetually child-like that we're just going to keep giving our dollars to a brand that feeds us nothing but baby food?
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Old 08-05-2020, 07:31 AM   #335
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I think I will just hit up Rogen.
YOU specifically would be the person I would want to see consult with the movie people because your sensibilities and background with this franchise would help. Will you contacting him/them/they do any good? One can only hope!
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Old 08-05-2020, 07:40 AM   #336
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Remember in '07 when Imagi released the last cgi animated TMNT film and while okay it wasn't exactly a huge commercial hit?

Remember in '16 when Out of the Shadows was marketed very heavily to children and that was a huge commercial flop that nearly killed the franchise?

Why on earth does anyone think adding these two unsuccessful things together will add up to a hit???

Unless you're Pixar or a company that can ape their formula childrens cgi movies are never that big and every time TMNT goes kiddie in it's movies the series starts to fail. History shows what works and what doesn't for this franchise and they keep going for fails. Kinda like how Rise of the TMNT combined almost all the ill conceived ideas to modernise the franchise (roided up turtles, magic weapons, kewl new central enemy etc) and put all into one show.

This isn't the first time we've had a new turtle product that is said to put the emphasis on them being teenagers. It usually means we see them characterised as more childlike. I have little faith this will be different.
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Old 08-05-2020, 07:52 AM   #337
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As far as the 2012 show is concerned... you missed the point of my argument... my argument was that a professed Mirage fan made that show and it turned out to be a child's cartoon. Was Ciro beholden to the corporation? Of course. Did he have to answer to what they wanted? YES! But he could have easily shifted the tone and spirit of that show into a more mature direction and still marketed it to 12 year olds because it was done 10 years before. Aesthetically, there's no denying that the 2012 show was made for very young children, despite arguments that they delivered dark, less-kid friendly elements on occasion.
Yeah, honestly, between the two camps of whether 2012 was crap or not, I’m more inclined to agree with ssjup81, and don’t understand why it’s so hip to hate Ciro here. It certainly is a more mature atmosphere to me than Rise, which I think would be a much better example of concerns about whether this movie will be what we want, partially because it’s current.

Not to say I’m optimistic about this movie, either. As long as it doesn’t go as far into kiddy territory as Rise did, I’ll be content for now, but knowing Rise and it being current, we’ll see if that happens.
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Old 08-05-2020, 07:52 AM   #338
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remember in '07 when imagi released the last cgi animated tmnt film and while okay it wasn't exactly a huge commercial hit?

Remember in '16 when out of the shadows was marketed very heavily to children and that was a huge commercial flop that nearly killed the franchise?

Why on earth does anyone think adding these two unsuccessful things together will add up to a hit???

Unless you're pixar or a company that can ape their formula childrens cgi movies are never that big and every time tmnt goes kiddie in it's movies the series starts to fail. History shows what works and what doesn't for this franchise and they keep going for fails. Kinda like how rise of the tmnt combined almost all the ill conceived ideas to modernise the franchise (roided up turtles, magic weapons, kewl new central enemy etc) and put all into one show.

This isn't the first time we've had a new turtle product that is said to put the emphasis on them being teenagers. It usually means we see them characterised as more childlike. I have little faith this will be different.
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Old 08-05-2020, 07:55 AM   #339
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Yeah, honestly, between the two camps of whether 2012 was crap or not, I?m more inclined to agree with ssjup81, and don?t understand why it?s so hip to hate Ciro here. It certainly is a more mature atmosphere to me than Rise, which I think would be a much better example of concerns about whether this movie will be what we want, partially because it?s current.

Not to say I?m optimistic about this movie, either. As long as it?s doesn?t go as far into kiddy territory as Rise did, I?ll be content for now.
So, a children's show aimed at 8 year olds is more mature than a baby's show aimed at pre-school kids and that's somehow a positive? Okay! How old are you people? Am I old enough to be your father?
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Old 08-05-2020, 07:57 AM   #340
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...I see you missed my disclaimer about whether I’m optimistic about the movie...

Also, I’ll answer your question that you intended to be rhetorical: I’m 28. I get that this is a heavy subject, but can we please refrain from personal attacks, especially since I (and likely others) do agree with you on some points?
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