Anyone not enthused about Dark Leo yet?

[CyberCubed]

I hope they have Raphael take over the mantle of Shredder instead like in Volune 3. Raph was working with bad guys but wasn't bad himself.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I hope they have Raphael take over the mantle of Shredder instead like in Volune 3. Raph was working with bad guys but wasn't bad himself.

I won't say they needed to ape that idea directly (in fact, they absolutely shouldn't, as the series is at its best when it's at its most original) but I think like one of the reasons this feels like such a let-down/cop-out is because of just how good IDW was at setting up that kind of organic, unexpected character growth a year ago.

You had the Leonardo/Donatello conflict introduced in the first six issues, which was a hugely interesting take on the characters and which still hasn't been fully explored.

You had Raph rejoining the team and meeting his brothers for the first time, feeling some of his morals chaffed against theirs while also still appreciate of the family.

You have the whole thing about whether they finally need to kill Shredder, and the various Turtles' reactions to that idea.

Etcetera, etcetera.

And when we finally get a story line that proposes to bring those issues to a head, we get ... this. Straight out of left field, straight out of, again, a Saturday morning cartoon, just like all of IDW Shredder's plans. Plots are moving forward but they're also getting increasingly ridiculous, and increasingly overshadowing the enjoyable character setup we saw during the series' foundations.

If they really wanted one of the Turtles to join the Foot, there were any number of more organic ways to do that. Donatello and Leo seem to have fewer compunctions about killing. Raphael feels like an outsider. Splinter's origin story is still somewhat suspect. Any of those aspects could have played with loyalties. Or not, and the story could have moved on just fine.

But, hey, oh well. Hopefully they stick the dismount.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I hope they have Raphael take over the mantle of Shredder instead like in Volune 3. Raph was working with bad guys but wasn't bad himself.

Yes, let's have everything always be the way it was somewhere else...

[Martin]

Originally Posted by Cipher

I too was expecting it would be more interesting. Of course, I also imagined going in that there would actually be motivation for Leo's joining the Foot, or at least something more nuanced than, "Now you're a good guy, now you're not! Whizz! Poof! Here's your black headband and here are your pouches!"

Don't forget our 'this week only' special: Shredder's trademarked gauntlet!

Originally Posted by Cipher

If they really wanted one of the Turtles to join the Foot, there were any number of more organic ways to do that. Donatello and Leo seem to have fewer compunctions about killing. Raphael feels like an outsider. Splinter's origin story is still somewhat suspect. Any of those aspects could have played with loyalties. Or not, and the story could have moved on just fine.

I agree 100%. So many possibilities that went unused

Originally Posted by corvus

I'm more excited about the aftermath. Of Dark Leo and city fall as a whole.

Me too. I can't believe I'm actually looking forward to this arc's ending so we can see some of the repercussions of this whole ordeal.

Originally Posted by Cipher

Which, yikes, sorry. See you in eight months.

Goddamit xD

[Bobby Curnow]

No need to apologize to us. Fine if you're not digging it. All i'll say is that some readers have presumptions about what will happen and are treating those presumptions as fact, which are way off base. Not saying you'll like what is actually in store more, maybe you'll hate it.

I'm curious about how exactly Shredder is coming off as a saturday morning cartoon character. I think there are plenty of valid criticisms to make, but i'm not seeing that one. Maybe it's because I know where things are heading, and that's coloring my opinion.

I just wish people who have negative opinions would write a letter or write the editor thread at the IDW forums. We never get any negative response in those places (and i know those negative response exist!), it would be nice to have a discussion about them. (although it may be difficult to have that discussion, without spoiling things).

Regardless, hearing what does and doesn't work is hugely beneficial. Say what you want about us, but we're always going to strive to make the book better.

[Jester]

Can't have those discussions where the negativity is? Like...here?

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Bobby Curnow

I'm curious about how exactly Shredder is coming off as a saturday morning cartoon character. I think there are plenty of valid criticisms to make, but i'm not seeing that one. Maybe it's because I know where things are heading, and that's coloring my opinion.

For me, at least, it's several things that are probably easier broken out as such:

1) His goal is city-wide domination. Not a huge thing; that's what any underworld leader should want. But it's specifically the way he phrases it, a la "embrace our destiny, etc."
2) Related to the above, his dialogue as a whole. I'm thinking of the time he corrects Kitsune, saying it's "his destiny," rather than "ours," which is just a really stock supervillain line. In general I find the dialogue on the book to be overwritten (usually just by a word or two, but it makes a difference), which I've just chalked up to Tom and Kevin being idea men more than prose or script writers (and that's begrudgingly fine), but that instance, and several others like it, stand out in particular.
3) His nonchalant approach to underling loyalty, which we've now seen lay the seeds for at least two mutinies. Not hard behavior to swallow for a stock supervillain, but a little beyond the pale for someone we're to believe is a genuine underworld threat and who once operated an entire ninja clan.
And 4) All the little things. Stopping Leo from killing Splinter because he wanted him for himself, for example. All justifiable, to an extent, but all anything but pragmatic and, in the case of the specific example above, clearly one of those Bond-villain-esque setups that allows the heroes to escape for no other reason than the idea that his hubris must allow the plot to continue.

This might all be offset if we knew a little more about him, I suppose. But so far nearly all our time spent with him has seen him engaging in that standard kind of supervillainy. The "dark Leo" arc probably isn't helping much either, but I made my feelings clear on that earlier this thread. There are plenty of things I do like about this Shredder. I like his history with Yoshi. I like, particularly, his relationship with Kitsune. But in both those cases it just makes his approach so far more disappointing; he's nothing more than a cartoonish arch-nemesis for Splinter and the Turtles, and it's clear he and Kitsune are on a collision course, which is ego-maniacal villainy 101.

I just wish people who have negative opinions would write a letter or write the editor thread at the IDW forums. We never get any negative response in those places (and i know those negative response exist!), it would be nice to have a discussion about them. (although it may be difficult to have that discussion, without spoiling things).

Hm, you know, I do have an account on the IDW Forums. I should probably use that sometime. Maybe I'll submit a letter just to even out those pages for you guys.

Regardless, hearing what does and doesn't work is hugely beneficial. Say what you want about us, but we're always going to strive to make the book better.

Yep, and I definitely appreciate that! Thanks for being cool with it. While my opinion on this arc so far still stands (not great), I definitely don't take the fan-creator interaction for granted and know you guys care about what you're doing with the book.

Originally Posted by Jester

Can't have those discussions where the negativity is? Like...here?

I'm not that negative, right? Where's Andrew?

[Bobby Curnow]

Cool, I appreciate the honest dialogue, Cipher.

I will say that you're working under false assumptions for a couple of your points. One of them should be at least partially disabused next week, another by the end of the arc & Shredder micro. I won't say which is which to maintain some element of surprise.

I will also say that one of your four points I think is completely legitimate and I agree with, and is something I personally think we could have done a better job of.

And I do recognize that it can be a cop out to say 'wait four more months!'. Obviously the story should be working on some level in the here and now, and if it's not— well, you're probably not going to dig how things end. It's not like the creative team is changing. We've either convinced you we're capable of some legitimate surprises and that would hopefully buy some benefit of the doubt as to how one ASSUMES it will end, or we haven't. It sounds like we haven't in your case, which is fine. Can't win 'em all.

And Jester— of course you can, and should have those conversations here. I'm just speaking personally— 1) I check the IDW forums more often, every day, and 2) I feel like a heel butting in and responding to stuff here, because that just sounds like i'm defensive. (i actively tell creators not too rebuke criticism too much on forums, because it usually doesn't end well and people should feel free to have places where they can talk about a book without creators jumping all over them... something i'm guilty of right now!) So long story short— it's easier to for me to get a gauge of things on the IDW forum/letters, where I see everything, and it's a way to engage the discussion directly and immediately. But by all means— talk away wherever you want!

[Jester]

No, I'm just saying from the way Bobby put it the IDW Turtle forums (and I guess letters) are free from negativity, and he wishes we'd move the discussion there...just seems odd when that same discussion could be held where the "negativity" (as mild as it is) is actually taking place.


As for Shredder's dialogue being overwritten, could that be chalked up to his grasp of English and his age? Kinda like how Thor is written with all the thees and thous?

Bobby, I welcome the input from the creative team. Sometimes, despite the fact we're obsessive fans, we do miss the minutia...the forest for the trees. As long as you're here and not getting put off by the "negativity" then you're welcome. I know tons of us were more upset to lose Ciro because he got upset than because he in some way upset us.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Bobby Curnow

I will also say that one of your four points I think is completely legitimate and I agree with, and is something I personally think we could have done a better job of.

I'll try not to speculate on which those were.

And I do recognize that it can be a cop out to say 'wait four more months!'. Obviously the story should be working on some level in the here and now, and if it's not— well, you're probably not going to dig how things end. It's not like the creative team is changing. We've either convinced you we're capable of some legitimate surprises and that would hopefully buy some benefit of the doubt as to how one ASSUMES it will end, or we haven't. It sounds like we haven't in your case, which is fine. Can't win 'em all.

I do want to say that, while I've espoused some negative predictions even in this thread, I am trying to keep an open mind while reading the series month to month, as I really do believe in the strength of the concept, and even previous output from the IDW team.

If I've written about trepidation in regards to future events here, it's only because, and you alluded to this in your response as well, it's serialized fiction and that's how we respond to it as readers. It's faced with the unenviable task of having to work not only long term, but also in a way that maintains expectations and excitement month to month. It has to hold enough back to allow for development and twists, while also not keeping readers in the dark to the point that it seems elements aren't working purely by mistake.

I do hope future installments improve in my eyes. I like it enough to want to enjoy it more. I can only, when opining and predicting, go with what I've been given, of course, but I still go in with fresh expectations each month.

So, absolutely, here's hoping. And if not, c'est la vie.

2) I feel like a heel butting in and responding to stuff here, because that just sounds like i'm defensive. (i actively tell creators not too rebuke criticism too much on forums, because it usually doesn't end well and people should feel free to have places where they can talk about a book without creators jumping all over them... something i'm guilty of right now!)

I just want to say -- While I understand the IDW forums being a safer spot on you guys' end for fan-creator interaction, and completely understand trying to limit writer interaction on here (as it puts IDW in a tight spot if a lone member of the team goes off), please don't feel that measured responses like yours are unwelcome! Part of the reason I've always liked posting here is knowing that members of the creative team can pop in for responses at any time (was true during the Mirage era and has held true under IDW as well). I think it keeps all parties civil and makes posts worthwhile, without cutting down on any freedom to post negative opinions.

Originally Posted by Jester

As for Shredder's dialogue being overwritten, could that be chalked up to his grasp of English and his age? Kinda like how Thor is written with all the thees and thous?

Putting this in the nicest way possible, I think that's a bit of a No-Prize. I think all the dialogue is a little (like, really slightly and it's hard to seem constructive about this just being some guy reading the book with nothing other than an amateur writing background and not having specific examples) overwritten. Shredder's just happens to be supervillainish as well. The particular "You mean my destiny" moment was actually, if I recall correctly, supposed to be translated for the reader from Japanese anyway.

[CyberCubed]

Cipher what other comics are you reading that you're comparing the IDW run too? I notice you have an account on those comicbook websites forums, (I recognize your posting style, I know its you), and you seem to think what's going on in the current Batman run is more interesting?

[Bobby Curnow]

Cool, all good... we've all got pretty tough skin! In regards to IDW forums/letters... I definitely don't want people posting here LESS! Was just saying I'd love to get all different reactions over in those other places as well. The letters column has become a bit of a bore recently!

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Cipher what other comics are you reading that you're comparing the IDW run too? I notice you have an account on those comicbook websites forums, (I recognize your posting style, I know its you), and you seem to think what's going on in the current Batman run is more interesting?

Taking this discussion to PM for relevancy's sake, but it's certainly not the current Batman book, which I have very few good things to say about.

And for whatever unreasonable reason I think I may hold TMNT to a different standard than Big Two books, which are sort of my brain-off reading material to begin with (that, and some of the more cliched tropes I'd bemoan in IDW are inherent to their genre). Probably not fair, but there you go.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Cipher

I think all the dialogue is a little (like, really slightly and it's hard to seem constructive about this just being some guy reading the book with nothing other than an amateur writing background and not having specific examples) overwritten. Shredder's just happens to be supervillainish as well. The particular "You mean my destiny" moment was actually, if I recall correctly, supposed to be translated for the reader from Japanese anyway.

I'm completely with you on this. It was one of my biggest complaints with the book in the early days. Old Hob's dialog seemed like it was taken directly from Team Rocket or some other Saturday morning cartoon villain. Some of the slang would be dated, too. I do think it's gotten a LOT better since then, though Shredder does still occasionally have hint traces of it.

[Red Mask]

Originally Posted by Cipher

You had the Leonardo/Donatello conflict introduced in the first six issues, which was a hugely interesting take on the characters and which still hasn't been fully explored.

I'm enjoying City Fall and the rest of the IDW books, but I totally agree with this.

As for Shredder- I get the issues, but I do like a little bit of cartoon camp in TMNT, even in the more adult-aimed stuff like IDW. I think City Fall's Shredder is a pretty good balance.

This is an aside from any issues brought up here, but I like that he's ruthless and threatening, but because of an overwhelming need to be the most powerful and strong, he can be a bit dumb/blind, but doesn't care. He trusts his brute strength and intimidation to carry him...I get the impression he's an elemental evil, like a bullying force of nature. Makes him kinda scary.

[Andrew NDB]

I will say that of all of the possible ways and reasonings behind one of the Turtles actually joining the Foot/joining Shredder... brainwashing is probably the most uninspiring way to go about it and can only end in fairly predictable fashion (i.e., Leo will snap out of his funk at a key moment, pretending to be Dark Leo just long enough to get the upper hand on Shredder again, etc. etc.).

But then to be fair, I haven't really sat down and properly read the past 3 or so months of IDW TMNT comics yet. Just skimmed. I guess I keep waiting for some big course-changing, character defining moment or event that will make me go, "Ooh! Yes! Now we're talking" but it hasn't quite happened yet.

[CyberCubed]

I figure its still mandates from Nick/Viacom that makes the comic not go as far as it should. They know kids watching the Nick show will stumble upon the comic and they want to make sure kids don't get turned off the Turtles if they see blood all over the walls or The Turtles spewing forth curse words.

I like the IDW comics quite a bit but I can see why some feels like its only slightly more mature than a Saturday morning cartoon. It actually feels a lot like the 4kids series as an example.

[ObiWanFan4life]

I agree, The IDW Comics are TV-PG (Dark, but accessible to children of age.) in comparison to Mirage, which is very TV-14 (Darker, and meant for teens/adults.)

[pingclang]

IDW has the Animated Series comic, which is great for kids. Maybe now would be a good time to up the ante on the regular ongoing? Start pushing some boundaries and telling stories completely new and more adult?

[Tazi]

To be honest, it's not like mirage had that much blood. And there were zero cursing. Well, Tales v2 issues by Tristan have cursing in them and they're all censored.
What Mirage really had are ocassional adult topics, like how Casey deals with the death of her wife, or Splinters stuff with survival instintincts (and cannibalism), etc.
I love City Fall so far, but I agree with the others. Shredder really souldn't be written that much over the top, cartoonish way, even if he was like that in many TMNT incernations. Sure, he is evil, but being evil is not a character trait, it's a judgement on a character's actions. I love the 4kids series, but their Shredder was really not a good example for a well written character. The Utrom Shredder was evil for the sake of being evil, without real motivations, I hope IDW will keep distancing their version from him.


I think we should really have a here a "feedback to idw creators" or some similar topic here, so it would be much easier to communicate with the staff like that, because they were always known, where to look at.