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Old 10-02-2020, 07:20 PM   #141
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I'm glad that the franchise continues to be produce, despite my lack of interest in this particular incarnation. It's kind of like what Bat-mite said at the end of Brave and the Bold. To paraphrase, we get different flavors of TMNT as time goes on. Perhaps something a bit darker will be made in the future.

I mean, we'll probably never get comic book dark. It is a franchise primarily aimed at children. Still, it's nice to have the guys around regardless.
That's the worst mentality ever. "I just want (fill in the blank) product around, so it's still around."
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Old 10-02-2020, 07:44 PM   #142
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Yeah, seriously. F*ck TMNT. It's 99% terrible now and it gets worse with every new round. Keep putting out toys for the old-school fans and let the comics stay around so long as people are interested (I predict that the IDW run, once it ends, will be the Very last TMNT ongoing comic book series). But flush the rest of it down the toilet.

The cartoons are crap and getting worse every time. The movies.... UGH. Just stop.

There never should have been a Toy Story 4, Terminator should have stayed at only two movies, Lucas shouldn't have sold out to Disney and Laird never should have sold out to Nick. These are Harsh Truths but factual all the same. In each case, what we got was nothing but More Product, all of it various shades of Terrible. And ALL of it serves no purpose but to shovel dirt on what made the originals so great, fracturing the fanbase further and creating discord where it's not needed.

Keep that practice going long enough, and that awesome thing you started with gets buried in sh*t to the point it's entirely worthless.

We've long since passed the threshold where TMNT was "mostly good". It's like 80% garbage now and I can barely remember why I even liked it in the first place. Each new iteration only makes me more and more ashamed to admit that I care about it at all. And it's mathematically impossible to EVER get back to the point where it was "Mostly Good Things." Not happening.

The last time this franchise wasn't a total embarrassment was 2004. And the future looks more and more bleak with each bit of news.

But sure, it's already a dead brand, just keep shoveling more crap out the door, trying to entice every generation of kids to get into it when it's a proven fact that Kids Don't Care About Ninja Turtles. They haven't cared since 1992.

If the corporate masters knew who their audience actually was, they might have a shot at pulling the nose up. But they don't. Nick makes products for children, and children don't care about TMNT. It's impossible to fix things unless Nick sells to someone like WB, which they'll never do. They'll throw it on a shelf forever and let it rot before they do that.

The whole thing is a f*cking zombie, and it's embarrassing.

Time to make like Elsa and Let It Go. The brand has no future.
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Old 10-02-2020, 09:12 PM   #143
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Hellllll yeaahhh. Can't wait. Hope it's soon!
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Old 10-02-2020, 10:46 PM   #144
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I wish Leo656 would open up a little for once and tell us how he really feels.

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Yeah, seriously. F*ck TMNT. It's 99% terrible now and it gets worse with every new round.

The cartoons are crap and getting worse every time.

We've long since passed the threshold where TMNT was "mostly good". It's like 80% garbage now and I can barely remember why I even liked it in the first place. Each new iteration only makes me more and more ashamed to admit that I care about it at all. And it's mathematically impossible to EVER get back to the point where it was "Mostly Good Things." Not happening.

And the future looks more and more bleak with each bit of news.

The whole thing is a f*cking zombie, and it's embarrassing.

Time to make like Elsa and Let It Go. The brand has no future.
If it's really that bad, though, why not just keep grinding away at it? What is there to salvage by locking it away?

Strangely enough, I can totally relate to the sentiment here. This is pretty much how I see things with most or all of my old favorite videogame series. Zelda, Metroid, Castlevania, Contra, and so many others, have all just been entirely divorced from anything that made them worthwhile in the first place, at least as far as I'm concerned. At this point I'd rather they be retired than to have them dragged out, propped up, and desecrated yet again.

At the same time, some part of me keeps hoping for the impossible. Maybe that's reason to keep trying, just to keep hope alive. IDK, I'm very much of two minds about it.
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Old 10-02-2020, 11:16 PM   #145
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The memories that something USED to be cool before it became a bad joke, for starters.

Nobody even remembers that TMNT was ever anything but a bad joke from the 1980s, an embarrassing relic. The more bad stuff they make, the more it obscures the Good. The more bad movies they make, the more that The One Good One becomes a minor footnote. The more furry fanfic they cram in the comics, the more Mirage gets pushed into the mists of forgotten history. The more cheap cash-in video games they rush out, the more obscure the good ones become.

What is there to lose by shoveling more half-assed "product" out the door in some vain hope that the law of averages will eventually kick in and we'll finally get SOMETHING that isn't sh*t? In a word, Everything. In more words, the very heart and soul of the franchise, along with the memory that it didn't ALWAYS suck so hard.

If someone throws $100 in a giant vat of raw sewage, it doesn't matter that once it was pristine, nobody's gonna want to accept it, and nobody with any dignity is going to jump in to fish it out and try to wash the sh*t off of it.

The TMNT brand is nothing but a rough diamond in an absolute ocean of Raw Sh*t. By this point, it's not even worth saving. Any memory of what it was, or what its potential is, gets further buried with every "Rise" or BayTurtles.

We could kill it off, and be happy with the memories. Or. We can keep watching the tide of sh*t rise higher and higher. When your mouth is full of sh*t, who even cares anymore that you used to be having fun? You certainly aren't now.

We're holding our breath waiting for Seth Rogen to "save" the franchise.

When your last, best hope is the "Sausage Party" idiot, it's time to kill the lights. Party's Over.

But hey... I'm not telling you anything... That you don't already know.
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Old 10-02-2020, 11:46 PM   #146
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When your last, best hope is the "Sausage Party" idiot, it's time to kill the lights. Party's Over.
Ha! Savage. What if it turned out stupendous, though? I'm not holding my breath or anything, just saying. If it was really great would you be able to admit it, even just to yourself?

Anyway, how can properties even be killed off really? If the copyright holder doesn't use them they just fall into public domain, then literally anybody can, and definitely will, create even more.
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Old 10-02-2020, 11:50 PM   #147
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When your last, best hope is the "Sausage Party" idiot, it's time to kill the lights. Party's Over.
Well, it's more like "the latest hope" and not the last best one. I'm a little optimistic about Rogen. I wish I knew more about his precise taste in TMNT, though.
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Old 10-03-2020, 12:11 AM   #148
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Ha! Savage. What if it turned out stupendous, though? I'm not holding my breath or anything, just saying. If it was really great would you be able to admit it, even just to yourself?
I'm sure sticking one's dick in the vacuum cleaner hose feels REALLY good, for a half-second before it turns into a tragedy. It's not at all worth that risk, though.

I likely won't have to admit anything, because it's not mathematically possible that some dick-and-fart-joke buffoon is going to produce a TMNT story that will do anything but turn my stomach. He's made his living aiming at the lowest common denominator. He was too old to actually be a fan of the brand in the 80s/90s the way we all were. He may have an appreciation for it, but he didn't grow up with it. Therefore, he doesn't "get it". It's just another lowbrow comedy vehicle to him, this one with a few less jokes about weed, coke, and semen.

When people tell you who they are, listen. Absolutely nothing in his entire career suggests that his TMNT project would be anything but a disaster. But people are so downtrodden with this franchise, they're actually hopeful. It's maddening. Any sane person can see from a mile away how bad an idea that was to greenlight.

But that's the thing about people who go through life with rose-colored glasses on. All the Red Flags just look like flags.
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Old 10-03-2020, 01:04 AM   #149
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But he's only 38. How old are you?
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Old 10-03-2020, 01:38 AM   #150
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Seriously?! Holy sh*t. I had no idea, I assumed he was about 42-45. Yikes! Guess it's all the drugs and fried foods that did such a number on him.

Alright, in the face of that fact I'll retract that specific criticism. "Whoops".

Regardless, he's still a manchild, and I think the manchildren have had the ball for TMNT long enough. Let someone who knows how to tell stories handle it for a while. The last guy was all about 'splosions and this dude never met a fart joke he didn't like. No matter how old the handler of the brand is, I would love it if they were at least MENTALLY older than 14. That would be super great for a change.
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Old 10-03-2020, 02:25 AM   #151
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But he's only 38. How old are you?
Jeeze, he's younger than me? That's a trip.
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Old 10-03-2020, 12:05 PM   #152
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This movie was announced nearly 2 years ago and people are still seething. It's only going to get worse when it premiers and people who had forgotten start ranting again since they forgot. Leo's text walls of jericho will seem like child's play and youtubers will get hits by the thousands for putting their angry faces in the thumbnails with titles as "NETFLIX Rise movie TMNT SUCKS" and #wewantFWTMNT hash tags
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Old 10-04-2020, 05:11 AM   #153
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Jeeze, he's younger than me? That's a trip.
I'm about seven years older than Brie Larson
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Old 10-04-2020, 05:45 AM   #154
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I'm about seven years older than Brie Larson
8 for me. I knew I was older than her though I didn't expect quite that gap. Yeesh. At least I can say Chris Evans was only born 3 months after me still.
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Old 10-04-2020, 09:54 PM   #155
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I wish Leo656 would open up a little for once and tell us how he really feels.



If it's really that bad, though, why not just keep grinding away at it? What is there to salvage by locking it away?

Strangely enough, I can totally relate to the sentiment here. This is pretty much how I see things with most or all of my old favorite videogame series. Zelda, Metroid, Castlevania, Contra, and so many others, have all just been entirely divorced from anything that made them worthwhile in the first place, at least as far as I'm concerned. At this point I'd rather they be retired than to have them dragged out, propped up, and desecrated yet again.

At the same time, some part of me keeps hoping for the impossible. Maybe that's reason to keep trying, just to keep hope alive. IDK, I'm very much of two minds about it.
Things evolve and change over time, including ourselves. How many old franchises have you revisited and wondered what you saw there in the first place? Nostalgia is a strong emotion.

Also, these shows weren't made for us. All of the cartoons since the very beginning were made to sell toys to kids. I know that's a cheap argument trotted out in these discussions, but it's true. We're well aware that these are businesses, and that businesses exist for one purpose: to make money. And that's what they're doing.

I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again. If we want something more appealing to *us*, then we need to show that the money is out there. We could do a gofundme or a kickstarter page or something. Otherwise, the studios are going to look at things like Steven Universe and Teen Titans Go! and try their best to stuff every property into those molds.

I know your frustration, though. As the first generation of Turtle fans, it'd be nice to be remembered beyond coy acknowledgments here and there. I just don't see it happening any time in the immediate future.

Until then, at least we're getting something rather than nothing.
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Old 10-05-2020, 12:19 AM   #156
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Argument voided for the fact that it's been proven twice or fourthwise that Kids Don't Care About Ninja Turtles. WE cared as kids, which is why we still care now. Only a handful of kids cared in 1996, 2003, 2007, 2012, 2014, and 2017 by comparison. There's a million reasons why that could be true, but it's true either way. Only a VERY small number of people paying attention to TMNT anymore are, or have been, children.

For better or worse, each time out, the people with strong opinions about each new iteration were only the ones who grew up with the original. EVERY new version "wasn't made for us", but for the elusive Whole New Audience of young kids. And time after time after time, the kids of 1996, 2003, 2007, 2012, 2014, and 2017 were presented with a Fresh New Take On TMNT designed specifically for Them and not Us... and every time, those kids collectively went "meh". Maybe they like Pokemon more. Maybe they're distracted by Minecraft. I don't know the Why; I just know that not a single generation of the under-10 crowd has reacted with strong feelings towards a single TMNT reboot. A few individual kids, sure. Collectively? MOST kids just ignore it every single time they reboot it.

Therefore, the "It's for the New Generation" argument is completely invalid and the Powers That Be are totally misguided for pursuing that path exclusively. It doesn't work. It's never worked, not with THIS franchise. Some things it works for, but sometimes it just doesn't work and you can't force it to. He-Man, same thing; Mattel tried marketing it to a younger audience in 1989 and again in 2003, that audience didn't bite, so in 2007 they shifted gears and started marketing the MOTU brand exclusively to 30-somethings, because they finally recognized that those are the only people who give a single sh*t about He-Man. They stopped trying to pursue an audience that wasn't paying any attention and made a very wise decision to cater to their existing base. Now we're drowning in He-Man product. That brand was f*cking DEAD, and now it may be a far cry from 1984 standards but there's no shortage of new products being introduced across all media and most/all of them are really, really good.

If they kept blindly trying to "reinvent" the MOTU brand for young kids, none of that would be possible. Because Young Kids don't give a sh*t about He-Man, and they don't give a sh*t about TMNT, either. To try and grow your audience is commendable, but when something simply isn't working you have to reassess and stop trying to go against the grain.

TMNT needs to be marketed to the people who won't treat it like just another passing fancy. Otherwise, it definitely won't survive once we're gone, and all there will be to show for the attempts at reinvention will be one mediocre failure after another.

If they lean into the older audience as their lifeblood, at the very least the products they put out have a chance at being GOOD. Which they can't be if all they do is try and aim it at a new audience of 6-year olds every three years.

If even one TMNT reboot had actually succeeding in creating millions upon millions of new fans, I'd feel differently. But that hasn't been the reality of the situation, not even a little bit. They can't get their hooks into the kids deep enough to keep them around. And it certainly hasn't been for lack of trying.

Kids don't care. Alright, that happens sometimes. So aim for the people who do care. The ones who've cared for 30 years. Simple. "Not for us anymore?" That's so incredibly shortsighted.

I'll personally take "Nothing" over "Something New" when every new something is worse than the last New Something. They can come back when they have something worth getting excited about. Until then they can give it a rest.
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Old 10-05-2020, 04:19 AM   #157
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The argument isn't voided.

You want to cool stuff? Show them you're willing to shell out the cash for it. These companies have been getting their bread buttered by impulsive 6 year olds and their parents' wallets for decades. Why are they going to drop what's worked and start pandering to 30-40 year olds? That doesn't move anywhere near as much product.

Case in Point: Batman TAS. There's a market for it, so the line continues.
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Old 10-05-2020, 04:29 AM   #158
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You want to cool stuff? Show them you're willing to shell out the cash for it. These companies have been getting their bread buttered by impulsive 6 year olds and their parents' wallets for decades. Why are they going to drop what's worked and start pandering to 30-40 year olds? That doesn't move anywhere near as much product.
That's true... of the cartoons. It always surprises me when grown adults are upset that the latest TMNT cartoon isn't attuned to them.

Now, conversely, I'm perpetually surprised and saddened that there isn't any content out there more in line with Mirage or even the 1990 movie. It's been proven to work. You can still have cartoons out there for the kiddies... but adult content can work as well, simultaneously. And as I've been saying for years, TMNT works best when you give kids something to outgrow TMNT into. Like how when I was a kid and got tired of the Fred Wolf stuff, I walked into a bookstore and discovered Mirage TMNT and I'm still into them 20 years later.

They just don't care anymore. And there isn't a Peter Laird or Kevin Eastman to quality control stuff anymore. I'm sure Viacom's general idea is that if they go too far adult, maybe it alienates the 5 year olds (or specifically, the parents of said 5 year olds from letting them) watching the cartoons, which is their real bread and butter (toys, TMNT underwear, etc.). Like, even the IDW stuff, which is supposedly for "an older crowd" -- what does Viacom do? Forbid them from having the Turtles kill and other red tape.

I don't suspect that will change anytime soon.
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Old 10-05-2020, 05:01 AM   #159
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So, let's analyze... the one thing in the TMNT brand that's consistently making money hand-over-fist is the NECA line. The one aimed at 30-something collectors. The ones that are so hot they show up on eBay at a 200% markup the day they go on sale. 6-year olds are the ones asking for/paying for these "$50" figure sets that are actually selling for upwards of $200-300 a pop? Seriously? That's what I'm supposed to believe, especially when by some accounts these "toys" are so brittle they snap taking them out of the package. These are for the kids? Kids are the ones asking for them, buying them at exorbitant prices and "playing" with them for five minutes until they break?

Could've sworn it was the Old Farts with money to burn and a persistent Nostalgia Itch... Huh.

Compared to the "Rise" action figure line, which was 100% aimed at kids, and was 100% ignored. $10 action figures, which spent 6-8 months marked down to $3.99 on Clearance at every Walmart and Target in the country. You couldn't give those toys away if they each came scotch-taped to a ham sandwich. "Aimed at kids". Soooooo... why didn't "the kids" buy them? Why didn't they buy the BayTurtles toys either, for that matter? Why don't kids read the comic books (market research, again, posits that most of the IDW book's readership is median age 30)? And so on and so forth.

The new movies failed both critically and commercially. The "Rise" cartoon obviously didn't hold an audience because they cancelled it in midstream with nary a peep. The movie toys AND the "Rise" toys flopped at retail. They are not succeeding in their ventures to aim younger. Those things were ALL supposedly "aimed at a New Audience", but they didn't work even a little bit. Fact is, they each failed badly. That's the Objective Reality.

The ONLY area of the brand making consistent waves (and Big Money) right now... is the super-expensive toys aimed at old farts with a ton of disposable income. The audience you're saying Nick would be foolish to cater to because "the REAL money is with the little kids."

Huh. Alright. If you say so.

Actually, no wait... that's the exact opposite of what you said was going on! What the... who the... HOW the... HUH?!

Again, if I saw evidence that they actually were making more money from 6-year olds than 36-year olds, I'd have a completely different opinion on the subject. Fact is, they're NOT. They're literally making money from the Exact Same People they made money off of in 1989. The "Kids" who grew up and are now nostalgic adults, not Kids Who Are Kids Right Now. If the movie toys and "Rise" toys didn't spend their entire existence collecting dust on Clearance aisles coast-to-coast, I'd absolutely hum a different tune.

I don't play Wishful Thinking, I just Observe and Report. Their money is absolutely with the Old Farts and not the Young Punks. They just haven't smartened up to that yet. Mattel did, and they're doing huge business again with He-Man. I'm sure it stung when they realized that Kids Don't Give A F*ck about the character nowadays, but at least they did wake up to that harsh fact eventually. They wasted many, many years between 1988 and 2007 trying to "square peg/round hole" the MOTU brand and make it something For The New Kids, despite new kids not caring one bit about some barbarian in a loincloth with a magic sword. At least they finally decided in 2007 NOT to just ignore the millions and millions of gainfully-employed nostalgic 30-somethings with money to burn, and since then things have slowly gotten better. It'll never be 1985 again, but it's hotter now than it's been since then, for the most part.

And ALL Mattel did differently... is realize that Kids Were Not Their Main Audience. No matter how much they THOUGHT or WANTED that to be the reality, it simply was not so. So they said "F*ck it, lets go back to playing to the people who already love us!" Turns out that there ARE millions of people who love a jacked-up barbarian with a magic sword... just nobody under age 30. And that's fine! At least they didn't go broke trying to invent a new audience that wasn't biting, and realized who actually wanted to buy into their brand. Now, MOTU fans are happy because there's tons of great product available in a variety of styles, and Mattel is happy because they're making a lot of money. All those years when they stubbornly insisted, "NO! We CAN get the kids back! We just need to... I don't know... make it more like anime? Or wait, is that still hip? What do kids like now? HELP US BE RELEVANT!", they actually lost tons and tons of money and put the franchise in the cooler. It was absolutely gonna die if they persisted in that direction. Before their "Classics" line launched in 2007, MOST fans were indeed predicting that MOTU was dead and buried.

Then one day, Mattel says "Nevermind. Kids think He-Man sucks. Let's sell our wares to the Dads instead." BAM, millions of dollars in the bank. Collector lines AND retail lines that are hugely popular. Can't keep the toys on shelves, and the "hot" items skyrocket in price immediately because supply can't meet demand... just like the NECA TMNT figures.

Huh.

Yeah... sorry. "The kids are the real audience" is wishful thinking, not reality. You have to look not at what these companies ATTEMPT to succeed at, but what they actually make lots of their money from.

6-year olds don't demand $50 Dolph Lundgren He-Man action figures, and they don't demand their dads buy them $200 action figure sets on eBay based on a cartoon that came out 25 years before they were born. They DO, however, ignore $10 TMNT toys marked down to $4 on the regular, based on Factual Evidence.

You can't hitch your wagon to such a fickle horse if you expect to actually go anywhere. Again... if things happened differently, I'd see it differently.
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Old 10-05-2020, 06:54 AM   #160
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NECA isn't Nickelodeon, Leo. They license the franchise and both get a cut from the toys. With Playmates, the Turtles are proprietary. Also, you're not taking volume into account. If I sell 500,000 $3 units and you sell 10,000 $50 units, I'm still making 3 times the profit you are. And that's before production costs and licensing fees and all the other legal matters play into it.

Second, if they're being sold on eBay for a 200% mark up, that mark up goes to the retailer, not the companies themselves.

Also, I just checked and the figures I'm seeing are about $50 a pop. At a 200% mark up, I should be able to trot down to a specialty store and pick some up for a quarter of the price.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
That's true... of the cartoons. It always surprises me when grown adults are upset that the latest TMNT cartoon isn't attuned to them.

Now, conversely, I'm perpetually surprised and saddened that there isn't any content out there more in line with Mirage or even the 1990 movie. It's been proven to work. You can still have cartoons out there for the kiddies... but adult content can work as well, simultaneously. And as I've been saying for years, TMNT works best when you give kids something to outgrow TMNT into. Like how when I was a kid and got tired of the Fred Wolf stuff, I walked into a bookstore and discovered Mirage TMNT and I'm still into them 20 years later.

They just don't care anymore. And there isn't a Peter Laird or Kevin Eastman to quality control stuff anymore. I'm sure Viacom's general idea is that if they go too far adult, maybe it alienates the 5 year olds (or specifically, the parents of said 5 year olds from letting them) watching the cartoons, which is their real bread and butter (toys, TMNT underwear, etc.). Like, even the IDW stuff, which is supposedly for "an older crowd" -- what does Viacom do? Forbid them from having the Turtles kill and other red tape.

I don't suspect that will change anytime soon.
Now THIS I understand the frustration of. I gripe about this, too.
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