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Old Yesterday, 03:27 PM   #401
ZariusTwo
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Originally Posted by LeotheLateBloomer View Post
Because you can't move on from your nostalgia.
If you modern TMNT fans can't see how much the franchise still largely benefits from the influence and legacy of the FW cartoon, I don't know what to tell you.
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Old Yesterday, 03:36 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by ZariusTwo View Post
If you modern TMNT fans can't see how much the franchise still largely benefits from the influence and legacy of the FW cartoon, I don't know what to tell you.
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Old Yesterday, 04:48 PM   #403
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You know, I love the Archie TMNT material quite a bit... but there's something really hysterical about a ninja debating about whether or not a gun is honorable.

You really sort of have to pretend they're not ninja in TMNTA. And that's OK.
A) Leo is just...well, Leo.
B) Turtles rarely act like ninjas at all. Won't make for flashy combat scenes, if they did (and won't sell toys as a consequence).
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Old Yesterday, 05:26 PM   #404
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He doesn't know that I grew up with the original cartoon. I'm just not loyal to one version.
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Old Yesterday, 07:32 PM   #405
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Oh, sure, we have SO much to thank FW TMNT for.

Specifically, Dad jokes, non-stop pizza references, Mikey being a useless retard (which has gotten MUCH worse in every version since but was established in FW), and of course, "COWABUNGA, DUUUUUUDES!"

So, SO much to be grateful for.

I'll be honest, I don't hate the show as much as some do, but it does deserve all the sh*t it gets (it probably deserves a lot more, frankly) and the fact that anyone older than ten can not only still watch it but defend it with a straight face just blows my goddamn mind.

I'm like thisclose to wishing it never even existed, myself, except that without the cartoon you don't get the toys or the 1990 movie, or the 4Kids show later on. But the fact that people are STILL so obsessed with one of the worst things to exist in the franchise is troublesome.

People aren't still romantically in love with Super-Friends 40 years later, no matter how much they love Superman and Batman. Not even if that cartoon made you love those characters. Because everyone knows Super-Friends is sh*t, and we don't pretend otherwise. I wish people could look at FW TMNT the same way.

It shouldn't be on a pedestal just because it's the first thing we saw and it shouldn't still be the template NOW. It's legacy SHOULD be, "Not a terrible first try by the (non-existent) standards of its era, but we've learned how to do better since." And in turn, we should do better, and want better things. You never move Forward by looking Backward.

Nothing good comes from mining FW for inspiration because you can't grow fruit in poisoned soil. The end.
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Old Today, 01:17 AM   #406
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Oh, sure, we have SO much to thank FW TMNT for.

Specifically, Dad jokes, non-stop pizza references, Mikey being a useless retard (which has gotten MUCH worse in every version since but was established in FW), and of course, "COWABUNGA, DUUUUUUDES!"

So, SO much to be grateful for.

I'll be honest, I don't hate the show as much as some do, but it does deserve all the sh*t it gets (it probably deserves a lot more, frankly) and the fact that anyone older than ten can not only still watch it but defend it with a straight face just blows my goddamn mind.

I'm like thisclose to wishing it never even existed, myself, except that without the cartoon you don't get the toys or the 1990 movie, or the 4Kids show later on. But the fact that people are STILL so obsessed with one of the worst things to exist in the franchise is troublesome.

People aren't still romantically in love with Super-Friends 40 years later, no matter how much they love Superman and Batman. Not even if that cartoon made you love those characters. Because everyone knows Super-Friends is sh*t, and we don't pretend otherwise. I wish people could look at FW TMNT the same way.

It shouldn't be on a pedestal just because it's the first thing we saw and it shouldn't still be the template NOW. It's legacy SHOULD be, "Not a terrible first try by the (non-existent) standards of its era, but we've learned how to do better since." And in turn, we should do better, and want better things. You never move Forward by looking Backward.

Nothing good comes from mining FW for inspiration because you can't grow fruit in poisoned soil. The end.
All this salt for nothing.
Lasting popularity of FW only means, that it was much better than some people retro-actively give it credit for and that all subsequent attempts to create TMNT installment that would have been as influential as FW series did had failed.

And none of that is audience fault.
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Old Today, 01:44 AM   #407
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Originally Posted by Leo656 View Post
Specifically, Dad jokes, non-stop pizza references, Mikey being a useless retard (which has gotten MUCH worse in every version since but was established in FW), and of course, "COWABUNGA, DUUUUUUDES!"
Mikey was never retarded in FW, that was something that happened in the next cartoon because they were trying be more serious but still were for kids, so all the humour was crammed into one turtle for the most part.
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The biggest villains were the censors. What they could do without being held back is my question.

Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building. I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue.

Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.

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Old Today, 02:21 AM   #408
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Mikey was never retarded in FW, that was something that happened in the next cartoon because they were trying be more serious but still were for kids, so all the humour was crammed into one turtle for the most part.
I don't think that makes him retarded, just obnoxious to his brothers. Nick Mike on the other hand...One thing Rise did get right is how they handled Mike compared to his brothers.
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Old Today, 04:33 AM   #409
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All this salt for nothing.
Lasting popularity of FW only means, that it was much better than some people retro-actively give it credit for and that all subsequent attempts to create TMNT installment that would have been as influential as FW series did had failed.

And none of that is audience fault.
No, it absolutely does not mean that. It only means that some people are totally blinded by nostalgia, and refuse to accept that things they liked when they were six are not good by default just BECAUSE they liked it when they were six.

I could never be half as thorough as neatoman has often been as to explaining the many, many, many, MANY objective and very real flaws in that cartoon, from occasional garbage writing to constant animation errors. These things don't disappear because "we were kids and kids don't care." It only means that the people who made the show aimed rather low and settled for very little. I don't hate the show as much as neatoman does, but he's never told a lie insofar as any of the shows flaws. They're not subjective criticisms, what's subjective is whether or not an individual chooses to overlook them or not.

And it absolutely is the audience's fault we get stuck with FW rehashed. They were given multiple better examples of how TMNT should be done. 4Kids was objectively a much better cartoon in every way, and only people who think "TMNT should always be silly" would say it wasn't. And then there's the 1990 movie, by and large the single highest point the entire franchise ever reached and what every iteration after that SHOULD try to be. Some would say Mirage falls into that category as well, and I won't fight them even though to me Mirage was dry as a rice cracker. Point is, we've had quite a few examples by now of much better TMNT iterations. The first one (for most people, since nobody ever heard of Mirage back then) isn't "the best" JUST because it was first. It was simply first. Standards have gone up since 1987, or SHOULD have.

It was one of the best cartoon shows of its era, sure. But that hardly says a lot when even the best of that era was, objectively, mostly-junk.

But it IS the audience's fault that only FW "matters". They've been given better options. They collectively CHOOSE to wallow in nostalgia like a pig in sh*t. And in turn, we're all forced to roll in it with them, or else quit following the franchise. That's hardly fair.

Not everyone is still 6 in their mind. Those of us who grew up deserve more than reheated leftovers. Yeah, we all thought the pizza sh*t was funny at that age. Some of them ate boogers, too; should we just go ahead and put THAT on the menu, or can we admit that grown-ups are supposed to have better taste than young children do?

It's an okay show. By 1980s standards, it squeaks into being "good" despite its flaws. But those flaws are very real and very numerous.

To be clear, there's nothing wrong with still liking things you liked as a kid. However, when it gets to a point where someone is claiming, "This thing is STILL the best thing EVAR, and also, EVERYTHING should be like this!" then that person is not living in Reality.
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Old Today, 05:01 AM   #410
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No, it absolutely does not mean that. It only means that some people are totally blinded by nostalgia, and refuse to accept that things they liked when they were six are not good by default just BECAUSE they liked it when they were six.

I could never be half as thorough as neatoman has often been as to explaining the many, many, many, MANY objective and very real flaws in that cartoon, from occasional garbage writing to constant animation errors. These things don't disappear because "we were kids and kids don't care." It only means that the people who made the show aimed rather low and settled for very little. I don't hate the show as much as neatoman does, but he's never told a lie insofar as any of the shows flaws. They're not subjective criticisms, what's subjective is whether or not an individual chooses to overlook them or not.

And it absolutely is the audience's fault we get stuck with FW rehashed. They were given multiple better examples of how TMNT should be done. 4Kids was objectively a much better cartoon in every way, and only people who think "TMNT should always be silly" would say it wasn't. And then there's the 1990 movie, by and large the single highest point the entire franchise ever reached and what every iteration after that SHOULD try to be. Some would say Mirage falls into that category as well, and I won't fight them even though to me Mirage was dry as a rice cracker. Point is, we've had quite a few examples by now of much better TMNT iterations. The first one (for most people, since nobody ever heard of Mirage back then) isn't "the best" JUST because it was first. It was simply first. Standards have gone up since 1987, or SHOULD have.

It was one of the best cartoon shows of its era, sure. But that hardly says a lot when even the best of that era was, objectively, mostly-junk.

But it IS the audience's fault that only FW "matters". They've been given better options. They collectively CHOOSE to wallow in nostalgia like a pig in sh*t. And in turn, we're all forced to roll in it with them, or else quit following the franchise. That's hardly fair.

Not everyone is still 6 in their mind. Those of us who grew up deserve more than reheated leftovers. Yeah, we all thought the pizza sh*t was funny at that age. Some of them ate boogers, too; should we just go ahead and put THAT on the menu, or can we admit that grown-ups are supposed to have better taste than young children do?

It's an okay show. By 1980s standards, it squeaks into being "good" despite its flaws. But those flaws are very real and very numerous.

To be clear, there's nothing wrong with still liking things you liked as a kid. However, when it gets to a point where someone is claiming, "This thing is STILL the best thing EVAR, and also, EVERYTHING should be like this!" then that person is not living in Reality.
Once again, audience is not at fault here - if 2k3 hasn't become a cultural milestone like FW series, than there was something wrong with it. I adore this show and consider it to be the best (serious) TMNT series ever, but, if it didn't sit well with people...well, it means something went wrong here.

Also, how come all this different versions of Batman manage to stuck with people and each and every manages to find its fans, without stepping on each other toes? By your own logic, people should be in love with "dark grim Batman" from Burton movies, since this is where most nostalgia supposed to reside. Or Batman TAS, yet, a lot of people love newer versions of Batman.

It seems, at some point you just need let go the notion, that "audience is wrong, I am right". You can have your own opinion all you want, but the objective reality, if something is good, audience will love it as well. It is similar to how many of the TMNT copycats were around the time (including real cats), but how many of them have become anywhere near as popular as TMNT? Basically none, even though in some aspects they could have been better.
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Old Today, 09:11 AM   #411
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Originally Posted by Leo656 View Post
Oh, sure, we have SO much to thank FW TMNT for.

Specifically, Dad jokes, non-stop pizza references, Mikey being a useless retard (which has gotten MUCH worse in every version since but was established in FW), and of course, "COWABUNGA, DUUUUUUDES!"

So, SO much to be grateful for.

I'll be honest, I don't hate the show as much as some do, but it does deserve all the sh*t it gets (it probably deserves a lot more, frankly) and the fact that anyone older than ten can not only still watch it but defend it with a straight face just blows my goddamn mind.

I'm like thisclose to wishing it never even existed, myself, except that without the cartoon you don't get the toys or the 1990 movie, or the 4Kids show later on. But the fact that people are STILL so obsessed with one of the worst things to exist in the franchise is troublesome.

People aren't still romantically in love with Super-Friends 40 years later, no matter how much they love Superman and Batman. Not even if that cartoon made you love those characters. Because everyone knows Super-Friends is sh*t, and we don't pretend otherwise. I wish people could look at FW TMNT the same way.

It shouldn't be on a pedestal just because it's the first thing we saw and it shouldn't still be the template NOW. It's legacy SHOULD be, "Not a terrible first try by the (non-existent) standards of its era, but we've learned how to do better since." And in turn, we should do better, and want better things. You never move Forward by looking Backward.

Nothing good comes from mining FW for inspiration because you can't grow fruit in poisoned soil. The end.
Fred Wolf is a funny beast. It was sort of useful until it wasn't. Without it, there may have never been the first film, the comics may have died out sooner, we would probably never have seen 2k3, or almost anything that followed.
Then again, maybe not.
And mileage will very on whether or not those are good things.

But at some point, Fred Wolf's mark on the franchise outstayed it's welcome. That's the part I find interesting.
The comparison has been made before, but TMNT reminds me so much of the Batman franchise. Adam West's show had a way of saving Batman while simultaneously demolishing Batman. Fortunately, we had the power of Neil Adams, Frank Miller, Tim Burton and other's to steer the character in the right direction.

TMNT need's it's Tim Burton right now. But that's another story.
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Old Today, 09:20 AM   #412
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Question

Nobody can ever say audience appreciation = Quality after the Transformers movies made a bazillion dollars. Sometimes the general audience would rather unapologetically eat sh*t with a grin and then apologize or make excuses for it later.

The way I feel about the FW cartoon is basically, it was a good first try and "good enough" for the time it was made. But I don't see how or why so many people are against moving things forward and would rather have that remain the gold standard forevermore. There was PLENTY of room for improvement and the things people remember most about it - pizza jokes, "Cowabunga", and Damsel In Distress April - were bad. The humor and tone are fine for kids but it's honestly not very funny through adult eyes.

Many of us have said it but I do like a lot of the ELEMENTS of FW and would like to see them done in a much better show with a lot less slapstick and a lot more verisimilitude. I don't think the entire thing has no value but I wish people would move on from it.
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