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Old 07-12-2021, 12:26 PM   #761
Leo656
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We'll see if it ever happens. So far? Hasn't been the case in Ever.

It's not a brand that thrives, it merely endures. If people cared, it'd be as big as Batman. Batman gets sh*tty handling all the time. Bad comics, bad movies, bad cartoon shows... and yet, Batman is "evergreen".

TMNT, on its best day, would need a rocket up its ass to get that kind of popularity. It's not JUST that most versions of the TMNT property since the 2000s have been lousy (although that definitely doesn't help a damn thing), it's that like it or not, only ONE version of the brand has ever been overwhelmingly popular and successful, and that version ended 30 years ago.

Even the "good" (or "Less Bad") versions, like 4Kids or the 2012 cartoon, barely left any mark on the pop culture landscape. They didn't "sell". They did "okay", but even 2012 has totally become an "Oh, yeah, that show existed" kind of thing, mostly-forgotten as soon as it ended.

You say "people" (in general) "adore" the TMNT concept.

I think that's proven horsesh*t. What people "adore" is generally a cartoon they watched 30+ years ago when they were 7, and otherwise they don't give a sh*t. People do NOT care about TMNT. SOME people care a lot, just like MOTU or Thundercats or anything else. "People", in general, though, don't give a single sh*t about anything but that One Version.

Even something like Transformers is like a thousand times more popular and relevant than TMNT is. Which sort of proves that presentation or "products put out by people who really care" means f*ck-all nothing, because you can't get much worse than how THAT brand has been presented over the last 20 years, yet it's completely bulletproof.

I'd like to admire your enthusiasm, I just find it at odds with objective reality. The only people who "adore" the TMNT concept are on this forum and you could fit all of 'em on a single-decker bus. Everyone else only cares about FW Nostalgia and nothing else.

If I saw people caring about Ninja Turtles, I'd say "People care about Ninja Turtles". But that's not what I see and hasn't been for a long time. If/When I see it becoming a "goldmine" rather than a vehicle for selling $60 action figures to people suffering a midlife crisis, then trust me, I'll say so.

But I don't THINK that's ever going to happen. If it was, it would've happened by now.

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Originally Posted by AquaParade View Post
Where you are absolutely wrong is that people don't care unless it's FW. The opening weekend of the Platinum Dunes movie did very well. It wasn't marketed as Fred Wolf - like at all. It was a gritty, loud, Michael Bay action movie from the looks of things. And people were willing to eat it up until they realized just how ****** it tasted and the box office dropped. But the interest was there.
I don't think I'm wrong about that at all. If anything, that movie being so abysmal only pushed people further into the FW comfort zone and rejecting anything else. Which is why the sequel went full-on FW, only to fail because - once again - push comes to shove, people DON'T care about TMNT.

Viacom's biggest failure is in TRYING to make it some Big Giant Blockbuster thing when it ISN'T that. The more they try and MAKE it that, the more they screw it up.

Look, since the 90s we've had Sh*t Reboots and Great Reboots with TMNT, and reboots in-between. What they ALL have in common is that regardless of approach, and regardless of quality, they've ALL under-performed against expectations.

You can read that data any way you choose. What it tells ME is, "TMNT was 'popular' from 1987 through 1992, and since then it's a relic that gets trotted out for a Nostalgia Pop but nobody who wasn't there for the first round actually, truly gives a sh*t."

Again, when the mythical TMNT reboot comes out that sets the world on fire, I'll admit people give a sh*t about Ninja Turtles. I don't think they do, and nothing I've seen YET has me convinced that this brand is "popular" to the level of being "a goldmine".
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Old 07-12-2021, 02:17 PM   #762
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Kind of sucks to just automatically feel skeptical or pessimistic, but after one bombed show and the result of the last two films before it... here we are.

Personally, I bet we could very well see the TMNT someday hit the age Batman is and still be around, but they need to wise up and stop handling them the way they currently are.

At what point do they grasp that reinventing and retelling over and over is not the way to succeed. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel hoping for Turtlemania 2.0. If someone has ideas for great new adventures for them without starting over and effing up who they are as characters, great.

As a property that has been around for over 37 years, I don't think we need to keep reintroducing them at this point. Everyone more or less knows who they are and any clueless outliers who are interested can go check out other media first and find out.

If they want to reignite it then it's pretty clear that kids these days are a hard sell, and a lot of stuff doesn't stick with them for very long, so they need to stop dragging their heels and be smart about it and look to where the money is. Last Ronin sounds like it's doing pretty well, the Batman/TMNT movie went over quite good... get the act together and get a PG13 series happening that may also catch the interest of even casual viewers who like good, gritty shows and might make them TMNT fans in the long run.

If you pull new adults in who are the interested in checking out more of the franchise, then you may end up pulling the kids in, too.


Before the TMNT mention that article includes "Audiences want more of the things they love and that’s how you build brand loyalty." Sounds pretty counter to constantly reinventing things.

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Old 07-12-2021, 02:38 PM   #763
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Constant reboots and "reinterpretations" do more harm than good. I'll always believe that. You don't NEED 30 different conflicting versions of a character or concept. Questions like "Where did the Ninja Turtles come from?" and "Who is April?" don't need multiple-choice answers. There NEEDS to be consistency or else people just tune out.

Like with Batman, there's always some differences in the minutiae of his origins or what his costume looks like, but the biggest differences between iterations are usually more tonal than anything. Yes, there's discrepancies in the finer details like what movie the Waynes were out to see on the night Bruce's parents got killed, or WHO the killer even was, but the basic pieces of the puzzle never change TOO much. The character(s) and storylines have generally been pretty consistent since their inception. The reason we see people say things like "If I see Batman's parents get shot one more time, I'm gonna scream" is because it's SUCH a consistent story that it genuinely doesn't need to be retold in each and every iteration.

Compared to TMNT, where every version bears practically no resemblance to any other past the surface textures. Characterizations, origin stories, and entire characters and plot elements are either non-existent or totally different from one version to the next. Some people think that's "fun" and "neat"; I say it's useless clutter. "Who is April O'Neil?" "Which one? There's like eight or nine of them, now." Terrible.

Also, when you're constantly rebooting something, not only do you get non-stop origin rehashes BUT you also never get too many steps past the origin story in the first place. No TMNT version except for Mirage Vol. 4 ever took the story beyond "Year Two" or so in their journey, and no "mainstream" version ever really has, outside of "flash-forward" possible future arcs.

Like I'm not even a huge fan of FW TMNT, but by this point I'd genuinely be more excited for a movie or cartoon that revisits that universe but picks it up with like, the TMNT in their early-20s or something, rather than another full reboot/alternate universe. Like how MOTU: Revelations isn't a true "sequel" to the Filmation MOTU cartoon but sort of "pretends" to be in that same universe but just moves the story forward a bit... that, to me, would be something I'd appreciate from a TMNT project, more so than "New TMNT Universe #678".

We've had a few decent TMNT "universes" that had good story and characters, and lots of good stories still untold. We don't need to keep "scanning the Multiverse" for "new and different" versions, I truly and honestly think that only makes things worse.
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Old 07-12-2021, 03:40 PM   #764
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If the Turtles really do start off as human teenagers before they're mutated (instead of just pet turtles like usual), then this movie is doomed from the start. Human Turtles is even worse than nostril turtles, it'll be the biggest jump the shark moment in TMNT history.

Just makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about it. God I hope this isn't the case.
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Old 07-12-2021, 03:50 PM   #765
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Originally Posted by Leo656 View Post
We'll see if it ever happens. So far? Hasn't been the case in Ever.

It's not a brand that thrives, it merely endures. If people cared, it'd be as big as Batman. Batman gets sh*tty handling all the time. Bad comics, bad movies, bad cartoon shows... and yet, Batman is "evergreen".
It does endure rather than thrive, I agree. But you said yourself that every incarnation has fallen flat since 2003. If the brand can endure for 18 years under crap treatment, then yeah, it stands to reason that it could thrive with proper treatment.

Batman is the least fair comparison, in this instance. The Dark Knight trilogy, B:TAS, Arkham Asylum games, Batfleck, Alan Moore, Grant Morrison....Has TMNT ever had treatment this good in their existence? The answer is a resounding "no." I mean, you can take some of those examples and try telling me why they actually suck, but it's an impossible sell when comparing their quality to the likes of what we have gotten under the TMNT banner.
Batman get's plenty of weak material, but he can survive it easily, because has an abundance of great material. Choose an apt comparison.


Quote:
I don't think I'm wrong about that at all. If anything, that movie being so abysmal only pushed people further into the FW comfort zone and rejecting anything else. Which is why the sequel went full-on FW, only to fail because - once again - push comes to shove, people DON'T care about TMNT.
It doesn't matter if that movie pushed people into a FW comfort zone (which I don't think it actually did) because the point remains that the opening box office was very big, despite the film not resembling the Fred Wolf cartoon at all. That point hasn't changed. It shows that you can sell TMNT in a big way without Fred Wolf.
Same with my Last Ronin example. It shows that you can garner massive interest without the Fred Wolf concept. It shows that people are hungry for something else. The Last Ronin also shows that not all tmnt is created equal, and it's not going to be received equally. Why is The Last Ronin selling hotter than any other comic book this year, while the ongoing flounders? Why is that?

Even many casual fans who grew up loving Fred Wolf rather see something more "adult" on screen. Nostalgia is powerful, but people want those properties to grow up with them, the same way all the Marvel and DC characters did. Yeah, people remember their Batman pajamas too, but it doesn't mean they want to see some toddler-fair when they go to the movie theater. They want The Dark Knight. TMNT is only different in that there is nothing for the older fans to cling to, until very recently inside of a dying medium.

Quote:
Viacom's biggest failure is in TRYING to make it some Big Giant Blockbuster thing when it ISN'T that. The more they try and MAKE it that, the more they screw it up.
The issue isn't that they've gone too big. It's just the execution. TMNT works as a blockbuster franchise as well as any other comic.

Quote:
Look, since the 90s we've had Sh*t Reboots and Great Reboots with TMNT, and reboots in-between. What they ALL have in common is that regardless of approach, and regardless of quality, they've ALL under-performed against expectations.
I'm glad you brought this up, but the key point here is that they underperformed after having stellar opening weekends. It's insane how much leverage tmnt has gotten from audiences. People show up every opening weekend, hoping it will be great, and then it dwindles as word of mouth gets around.

Quote:
I'd like to admire your enthusiasm, I just find it at odds with objective reality. The only people who "adore" the TMNT concept are on this forum and you could fit all of 'em on a single-decker bus. Everyone else only cares about FW Nostalgia and nothing else.
If that were true, there would be no TMNT brand anymore. Casual fans care as much about TMNT as they do about any random Marvel character, and that's enough. You think all the people who make up Spider-Man box office post on a Spider-Man forum? They simply grew up with the character and still enjoy seeing him treated in a way suitable for older viewers.


Quote:
You can read that data any way you choose. What it tells ME is, "TMNT was 'popular' from 1987 through 1992, and since then it's a relic that gets trotted out for a Nostalgia Pop but nobody who wasn't there for the first round actually, truly gives a sh*t."
I feel like this gets away from the point that doing TMNT right will bring in big audiences. I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree, but I don't think it betrays the idea that doing TMNT right would lead to massive success.

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Old 07-12-2021, 06:49 PM   #766
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With regard to the Batman comparison, no, you're correct, the closest thing TMNT has ever gotten to some of the stuff Batman has, quality-wise, would be the 1990 movie, and since then nobody's even attempted to present anything in that vein with the property.

In theory, you might be correct in that if someone did present a more "serious, grown-up" iteration that was objectively well-made, then it MIGHT just be the spark that lights a fire. Maybe, possibly.

But it's tough to really say. For one thing, we've seen on this forum many times where people have sworn that having "the characters grow up with them" is the LAST thing many of them want from this franchise. The "broken base" problem is worse with this franchise than perhaps any other, mostly because of all the numerous disparate versions. Like sure, some Batman fans prefer the Adam West version, but MOST people rightly tell those people to go sit in the corner and let the Big Kids direct the Batman conversations. It's different with TMNT; to a ton of people who identify as "TMNT fans", they want it balls-out, over-the-top goofy; "It should be goofy and stupid because that's the way it works BEST." You and I, we think differently. But y'know what? I'm gonna say that we're outvoted, and pretty soundly at that. And if ever anyone disputes that notion, the other people can (rightly) claim that the only version of TMNT that ever became a huge global phenomenon was one of the goofiest, stupidest and objectively slapdash, half-assed versions of it, which means it isn't a matter of either quality or effort.

FW being "the only TMNT anyone ever cared about" skews the entire argument because it isn't even a matter of opinion; it's Objective Fact whether we like it or not, all anyone has to do is look at the numbers. And until a "serious, grown-up" version comes along that succeeds in equal, or even comparable measure to FW TMNT, it's impossible to say with any certainty that "THAT's the Magic Bullet". Me, I'd like nothing more than for EVERY version of TMNT to follow the 1990 film's aesthetic; for all I know, though, it'd tank. We can't say "If TMNT had its own 'Batman Begins', it'd be a huge hit." We truly don't know that, we can only say "Well that's what *I* want to see and think would work best."

And I mean sure, it's worth a shot. But it's a moot point, because as I've mentioned before, Viacom bought the brand to sell cheap toys to little kids every 5-10 years, and that's ALL they care about or are interested in. They sincerely, truly, 100% do not care about what ANY "TMNT Fan" outside of that age group thinks. This brand is f*cking Scooby-Doo, now, and that's all it's ever gonna be unless they sell it to WB one day, which is Highly Unlikely.

I mean, okay, "Last Ronin", again. It doesn't matter! I'm sincerely glad you like the book so much, but for the 100th time if it leads to anything of substance beyond maybe another mini-series, I'll eat a goddamn shoe. It's a comic book mini-series that sold copies which, if it were an ongoing series ten years ago, it would've been cancelled for "low sales". It only looks like a huge triumph because the other TMNT books sell so poorly.

When you're drowning in sh*t, ANYTHING that sparkles looks like a diamond. Last Ronin is a "here's your 'grown-up' TMNT, now shut up" bone for the Big Kids. It's NOT going to affect Viacom's overall approach to presenting or marketing TMNT in any meaningful way, and if it does I'll lead the parade.

But you don't need a crystal ball to see that that's NOT going to happen.
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Old 07-12-2021, 08:25 PM   #767
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I think TMNT can easily be around for as long as Batman, the problem is that it will exist as number of desperate mediocre variations appearing and disappearing quickly from people's memory.

And aside form FW most people won't remember any of them or consider them "good enough".

I would like situation to be different, even if that'd require modern retelling of FW series. But it is unlikely to happen.
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Old 07-12-2021, 08:53 PM   #768
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I pretty much feel the same.

They'll still be selling TMNT-branded products many years from now, just like some companies still sell products based on Dick Tracy or The Shadow or Green Hornet or Flash Gordon. But are those properties "popular" or "relevant" in any significant way, anymore? Absolutely not, that's not even a conversation. They only exist to say "Hey, remember this? It existed!" And that's all they ever will be. That's TMNT's future as well, 100%.

I definitely think some company will still be selling TMNT action figures and statues in 50-60 years (and that most or all of those products will be based on FW and nothing else). But that's going to be 100% of TMNT's existence or "relevance".

It's never going to be 1989 again. It's not even going to be 2003 again. It's never even going to come close.

That isn't "doomsaying", it's just plain paying attention and refusing to live in Make-Believe Land. TMNT isn't incredibly popular, hasn't been for ages, and it would take nothing short of a legit miracle to ever make it so again.

But they'll still be selling "Cowabunga!"-branded trinkets and Christmas tree ornaments several decades from now, just like they do with Charlie Brown or Garfield even though nobody's given a sh*t about that stuff for decades, either. So, I mean, there's that.

You just have to be realistic about these kinds of things, that's all.

Also? Unpopular Opinion Theater time, but it needs to be said: A major thing holding TMNT back from being truly "evergreen" the way stuff like Batman is, is that objectively, on its face, the entire TMNT concept is by far one of the all-time DUMBEST things to ever become a billion-dollar franchise. I say that "with love", but c'mon, let's just be real. If you tried to explain even the basics of TMNT to someone who had no idea what it was, it sounds like the lunatic ramblings of some ADHD-riddled pre-schooler.

Something so inherently stupid - no matter how "charming" - automatically has a limited shelf-life. It is absolutely one of those things people 100 years from now are going to look back on and say "Jesus, those people were stupid back then", like bell bottoms and pet rocks. It's a premise that certainly can be executed in a way so that it's NOT dumb, but it is, inherently, a dumb premise that requires a TON of delicate handling to present in a way that isn't stupid.

And before someone even tries to argue that "It's no more 'dumb' of a concept than a guy dressing up like a bat to go punch out criminals"... yes it is, by ten miles. Don't start.
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Old 07-12-2021, 08:59 PM   #769
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Kind of sucks to just automatically feel skeptical or pessimistic, but after one bombed show and the result of the last two films before it... here we are.

Personally, I bet we could very well see the TMNT someday hit the age Batman is and still be around, but they need to wise up and stop handling them the way they currently are.

At what point do they grasp that reinventing and retelling over and over is not the way to succeed. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel hoping for Turtlemania 2.0. If someone has ideas for great new adventures for them without starting over and effing up who they are as characters, great.

As a property that has been around for over 37 years, I don't think we need to keep reintroducing them at this point. Everyone more or less knows who they are and any clueless outliers who are interested can go check out other media first and find out.

If they want to reignite it then it's pretty clear that kids these days are a hard sell, and a lot of stuff doesn't stick with them for very long, so they need to stop dragging their heels and be smart about it and look to where the money is. Last Ronin sounds like it's doing pretty well, the Batman/TMNT movie went over quite good... get the act together and get a PG13 series happening that may also catch the interest of even casual viewers who like good, gritty shows and might make them TMNT fans in the long run.

If you pull new adults in who are the interested in checking out more of the franchise, then you may end up pulling the kids in, too.


Before the TMNT mention that article includes "Audiences want more of the things they love and that’s how you build brand loyalty." Sounds pretty counter to constantly reinventing things.
Yeah, very true. After all these years of trying to "reinvent the wheel", Viacom still doesn't get it. How well is The Last Ronin doing, by the way?
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Old 07-13-2021, 04:22 AM   #770
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With regard to the Batman comparison, no, you're correct, the closest thing TMNT has ever gotten to some of the stuff Batman has, quality-wise, would be the 1990 movie, and since then nobody's even attempted to present anything in that vein with the property.

In theory, you might be correct in that if someone did present a more "serious, grown-up" iteration that was objectively well-made, then it MIGHT just be the spark that lights a fire. Maybe, possibly.

But it's tough to really say. For one thing, we've seen on this forum many times where people have sworn that having "the characters grow up with them" is the LAST thing many of them want from this franchise. The "broken base" problem is worse with this franchise than perhaps any other, mostly because of all the numerous disparate versions. Like sure, some Batman fans prefer the Adam West version, but MOST people rightly tell those people to go sit in the corner and let the Big Kids direct the Batman conversations. It's different with TMNT; to a ton of people who identify as "TMNT fans", they want it balls-out, over-the-top goofy; "It should be goofy and stupid because that's the way it works BEST." You and I, we think differently. But y'know what? I'm gonna say that we're outvoted, and pretty soundly at that. And if ever anyone disputes that notion, the other people can (rightly) claim that the only version of TMNT that ever became a huge global phenomenon was one of the goofiest, stupidest and objectively slapdash, half-assed versions of it, which means it isn't a matter of either quality or effort.

FW being "the only TMNT anyone ever cared about" skews the entire argument because it isn't even a matter of opinion; it's Objective Fact whether we like it or not, all anyone has to do is look at the numbers. And until a "serious, grown-up" version comes along that succeeds in equal, or even comparable measure to FW TMNT, it's impossible to say with any certainty that "THAT's the Magic Bullet". Me, I'd like nothing more than for EVERY version of TMNT to follow the 1990 film's aesthetic; for all I know, though, it'd tank. We can't say "If TMNT had its own 'Batman Begins', it'd be a huge hit." We truly don't know that, we can only say "Well that's what *I* want to see and think would work best."

And I mean sure, it's worth a shot. But it's a moot point, because as I've mentioned before, Viacom bought the brand to sell cheap toys to little kids every 5-10 years, and that's ALL they care about or are interested in. They sincerely, truly, 100% do not care about what ANY "TMNT Fan" outside of that age group thinks. This brand is f*cking Scooby-Doo, now, and that's all it's ever gonna be unless they sell it to WB one day, which is Highly Unlikely.

I mean, okay, "Last Ronin", again. It doesn't matter! I'm sincerely glad you like the book so much, but for the 100th time if it leads to anything of substance beyond maybe another mini-series, I'll eat a goddamn shoe. It's a comic book mini-series that sold copies which, if it were an ongoing series ten years ago, it would've been cancelled for "low sales". It only looks like a huge triumph because the other TMNT books sell so poorly.

When you're drowning in sh*t, ANYTHING that sparkles looks like a diamond. Last Ronin is a "here's your 'grown-up' TMNT, now shut up" bone for the Big Kids. It's NOT going to affect Viacom's overall approach to presenting or marketing TMNT in any meaningful way, and if it does I'll lead the parade.

But you don't need a crystal ball to see that that's NOT going to happen.
You missed the point, re: the last ronin.
It's not about "gee, I just like that book so much", it's a point in regards to the discrepancy in sales of TLR vs the ongoing, and what that means for the franchise.
Nowhere am I saying that TLR is going to be successful enough to get it's own blockbuster movie.
The point being made is that when you do TMNT right....something different happens. You go from 10k comic sales to 200k comic sales.
Now, to make a point, you don't need to reach 500k comic sales, you simply need to look at one vs the other and realize there is massive potential not being met on the ongoing.


And then you apply that line of thinking to other TMNT projects.


Sorry, but everytime I bring up TLR, you seem to get confused and go down this road of "I get it - you like it! But it's not going to revive the franchise!"....well, that's not what I'm saying.
Although, to be fair, you're comparing it's sales to comics that sold years ago, which is irrelevant. Spider-Man sells less comics now than he did before too, yet he's the top grossing film. He's still one of the top selling comics and you see that popularity reflected in pop culture. TLR sales are meaningful. There's no denying that.
In fact, the sales are not just high in comparison to lower-selling TMNT comics as you imply - they are high in comparison to every single comic book on the market.
And I can never forget to mention that they were $9 issues, which is always a harder sell!
And the sales are increasing by issue as the book goes on!

You can't seriously handwave it as simply being successful in contrast to other TMNT books. It's not the case.

Btw, will you eat a shoe when the next TLR project is announced, or does it have to be labeled an "ongoing" for it to count? Personally, I'd think that's a cop out. If they announce more, it's no longer a mini-series and you should eat the shoe. We could use the content around here. I'd even settle for a shoe-shaped gummi.

I mean, before you kept saying it won't lead to anything else. Now you're saying "it wont lead to anything else...substantial...except another mini-series."

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Old 07-13-2021, 10:10 AM   #771
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It still kinda doesn't count unless it's the main series. Like they can have this super awesome TMNT/Street Sharks crossover special, but like it doesn't count.

We desperately need the main book to get back on track.
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Old 07-13-2021, 10:13 AM   #772
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It still kinda doesn't count unless it's the main series. Like they can have this super awesome TMNT/Street Sharks crossover special, but like it doesn't count.

We desperately need the main book to get back on track.
Well, to be fair, we're not really discussing whether the book...."counts" or not... I don't think?

I'm confused.
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Old 07-13-2021, 12:21 PM   #773
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do you think we saw a glimpse of leo when they released the tweet with the release date?
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Old 07-13-2021, 01:23 PM   #774
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It still kinda doesn't count unless it's the main series. Like they can have this super awesome TMNT/Street Sharks crossover special, but like it doesn't count.

We desperately need the main book to get back on track.
Comics will never be as mainstream as a TV show or movie anyway.

Even when IDW was "good" from issue 1-100...most people have no clue it exists or if they do they don't bother to follow it.
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Old 07-13-2021, 01:31 PM   #775
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Comics will never be as mainstream as a TV show or movie anyway.

Even when IDW was "good" from issue 1-100...most people have no clue it exists or if they do they don't bother to follow it.
Sad but true.

Which is why I can't help but chuckle when people insist that The Last Ronin is going to "save" the franchise. At best, they do another "mature TMNT" mini-series that 99.99999% of the fanbase won't ever see or care about. It has no effect on the larger plans Viacom has for the TMNT brand whatsoever. It's literally only there so they can tell the 30+-year olds "You got your bottle, now stop crying about how 'Everything's for kids' and go play in the corner."

Like I'm glad it exists but in the "Big Picture" it's meaningless.
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Old 07-13-2021, 02:53 PM   #776
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Sad but true.

Which is why I can't help but chuckle when people insist that The Last Ronin is going to "save" the franchise. At best, they do another "mature TMNT" mini-series that 99.99999% of the fanbase won't ever see or care about. It has no effect on the larger plans Viacom has for the TMNT brand whatsoever. It's literally only there so they can tell the 30+-year olds "You got your bottle, now stop crying about how 'Everything's for kids' and go play in the corner."

Like I'm glad it exists but in the "Big Picture" it's meaningless.
Who is saying it is going to "save" the franchise?

I don't see anyone saying that. The franchise doesn't really need saving in any financial sense, but the book will certainly lead to more of the same. Companies do what makes the most money. There will be more comics in this vein, for sure. You were saying it was just a mini-series, now you're saying another mini-series is a possibility, in a couple months, they'll announce it and you'll accept it as reality. Then what? "well it'll never be a movie!" This is the direction we are headed lol. Don't be stubborn, Leo! Just let it unfold. More The Last Ronin is coming.
Maybe it'll influence future projects, but no, it won't "save" any franchises. Def more comics though. Not "at best".

Although I did make a comparison between the ongoing and The Last Ronin to point out the discrepancy in sales when you make a TMNT product right vs making a poor TMNT product. I think you're having a hard time differentiating that with whatever you're talking about.

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Old 07-14-2021, 07:51 AM   #777
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I am afraid, it'll take much more to divert Viacom from their current stance on TMNT, than a one miniseries.
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Old 07-14-2021, 09:27 AM   #778
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I am afraid, it'll take much more to divert Viacom from their current stance on TMNT, than a one miniseries.
True, but no one is trying to say otherwise in this thread.

Again, the point I was making is that there is a discrepancy in sales between a book like the last ronin and the ongoing.
The difference in success is huge. Just huge. The sales are looking to be over 15-20 to 1.


I was saying if you apply that line of thinking, to say the movies, then it stands to reason that the movies could be a huge hit. A tmnt movie done right would make a ton of money. Much more than the PD films. That's my belief. That's the only point I'm making in this thread. That Viacom could make a ton of money if they took the franchise more seriously.

I'd be willing to have the discussion of 'whether TLR will have an effect on the brand' - I think that's an interesting discussion. But I don't want to conflate that with what I'm saying here. Two very diff things I think we're having trouble separating.

No worries though, happy to explain. Unless you were responding to someone else's point that I didn't see. In that case, nvm.

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Old 07-14-2021, 10:23 AM   #779
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I would propose the problem is not only that TLR is that good, it is that mainline series has also degenerated into a furry shitshow.
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Old 07-14-2021, 11:06 AM   #780
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I would propose the problem is not only that TLR is that good, it is that mainline series has also degenerated into a furry shitshow.
I would argue the exact same. And I’d argue that the films are the same level of trash if not worse then the ongoing. Outdo the recent movies, like TLR outdid the ongoing and watch what happens, Viacom.
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