New CGI movie

[Leo656]

Nailed it, Andrew.

Full disclosure, though, in anticipation of a rebuttal from some people or persons who think it has to be one thing or another, I'm no longer convinced that a "better" or "more serious" take on TMNT would ever make the brand "popular" again, either. I used to think that, like ten years ago, but I don't anymore.

The thing is, I see how the younger generation entertains itself, how disposable their entertainment is to them and how they don't form long-lasting bonds with brands or characters the way we did. They don't do the whole "nostalgia" thing, to them old is just Old, and if it's old then they're done with it. The Nick cartoon, for example, is generally only still talked about by us, the G1 fans who watched some or all of it. Kids don't still care about it, they "outgrew" it. I really, honestly don't think that generation is going to "revive" the brand again through their nostalgic passion for ten years ago, the way we did in 2003. That reboot worked because our generation of fans were PASSIONATE about the brand and actively wanted to see it come back, and it helped us overlook some of the flaws in the 4Kids cartoon, the toys, the Mirage revival, etc. We carried it because TMNT mattered to us; it was more than just an old toy or cartoon, it had become part of who we were as people.

That's not true, to the same extent, of the younger crowd right now. To them it IS just an old silly thing they liked before they got into "cooler" stuff like Fortnite. Ask most kids who were 5-10 when they watched the Nick cartoon how excited they'd be for a big TMNT revival of some type, most of them would just say "eh". It's different. Everything. The times, the people, the products... Nothing is the same as it was twenty years ago, and I don't think it ever will be.

I really think now that the brand was heavily a product of its time that spoke strongly to a generation, for various reasons, but ONLY to that generation, as They/We are the only group of fans who ever STRONGLY bonded with the material and went back to it years later with the same level of enthusiasm. But I don't see that continuing. There was no huge surge of nostalgia in 2013 for the 4Kids show's anniversary; the kids who were 6 in 2003 didn't care enough to keep talking about it in 2013, and they're certainly not discussing it Now either. I don't see why it will be any different for the Nick cartoon. The 6-year olds of 2012 aren't automatically going to feel romantic and nostalgic about that cartoon again in 2022.

The only audience that has EVER come back consistently, are the 6-year olds of 1988. I really, honestly do think it's going to stay that way, and I think TMNT as a "brand" dies with us. There will always be toys, but I absolutely foresee a very near future where the cartoons, movies, and comics go away. We've already reached a point where the toys are the only things consistently making any money; it's not a far hop from there to "Fine, we just won't do the other stuff anymore." If the next movie flops, and then the NEXT one, whenever it may be... I think that's Game Over, officially. Nobody's going to spend $200 million to make a measly ten million (or LOSE ten million) dollars on a Ninja Turtles movie (or show, or video game, etc.) when the toys sell well even without those other things to "promote" them. TMNT action figures, T-shirts, etc. is a sustainable business model for whoever owns the brand. They can forever produce that stuff for pennies and make back billions. Movies and TV shows are not a sustainable business model, however, unless your brand shows a certain level of being "bulletproof". TMNT has never been that brand, as it's forever been a mixed bag at the best of times and its general fanbase is schizophrenic and bipolar.

Sounds kinda Doom N Gloom, maybe, and I confess that sometimes when I'm in a mood I can sound like I'm rooting for that to happen, but not so much that, really. It's more like, I just see the writing on the wall and if that's where things are headed then I'd like to skip the next three bad, failed retries and skip right to the "It's just a toy line for adults now" part. I just don't have a ton of patience, and as bad as tbe Bay stuff was I'm scared that the next one(s) might be even worse.

I swear though, I'm just being pragmatic. "Looking at the tea leaves" and just reading the general temperature of "TMNT Fans", who they are and what they respond to the most... This is sincerely the way I see things going. 15 years, I think. 20 if the next cartoon does better than expected.

[AquaParade]

Millennial fans are willing to give TMNT chance after chance. TMNT are basically the “Sonic the Hedgehog” of the movie world. Started out great, the potential is still there, the sales are still there, but it’s been diminishing returns for decades now.

I truly believe it’s a “if you build it, they will come” situation. TMNT needs to be treated like other comic book properties, not other children’s properties. I maintain that most anyone my age willing to watch an MCU movie, would watch a TMNT movie, were it shown an equal amount of respect. People showed up for 07 and 2014, on opening weekends. They both started off strong. There is no shortage of goodwill from the audience.

Yes, it’s best known for being a children’s property, but most everything special about it came from the source. In the 90’s, Batman was most relevant in the form of Adam West, but that’s not what Burton tapped into for his film, and that’s not what reignited the character to the level he is at today. It’s not what people wanted anymore.
Sure, they smiled and reminisced about Adam West Batman, but it’s not what they wanted to see in modern times on the big screen. That’s what Viacom has trouble understanding.

Regarding Leo’s post, I don’t think we can accurately predict how much longer the franchise will last, but I do believe it’s future hangs in the balance of the next decade or so. I think there are a few years left to reinvigorate the franchise while there is still some goodwill left in the tank. I think the formula is sitting right there, in between the comics, the Henson film, and the MCU approach.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Leo656

The only audience that has EVER come back consistently, are the 6-year olds of 1988. I really, honestly do think it's going to stay that way, and I think TMNT as a "brand" dies with us. There will always be toys, but I absolutely foresee a very near future where the cartoons, movies, and comics go away. We've already reached a point where the toys are the only things consistently making any money; it's not a far hop from there to "Fine, we just won't do the other stuff anymore." If the next movie flops, and then the NEXT one, whenever it may be... I think that's Game Over, officially. Nobody's going to spend $200 million to make a measly ten million (or LOSE ten million) dollars on a Ninja Turtles movie (or show, or video game, etc.) when the toys sell well even without those other things to "promote" them. TMNT action figures, T-shirts, etc. is a sustainable business model for whoever owns the brand. They can forever produce that stuff for pennies and make back billions. Movies and TV shows are not a sustainable business model, however, unless your brand shows a certain level of being "bulletproof". TMNT has never been that brand, as it's forever been a mixed bag at the best of times and its general fanbase is schizophrenic and bipolar.

Does that mean I could buy the rights as a discount fairly soon and finally produce that adult animated show I always wanted. I already have season 1 planned out!

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Does that mean I could buy the rights as a discount fairly soon and finally produce that adult animated show I always wanted. I already have season 1 planned out!

You won't make any money on it but I wouldn't be shocked if the opportunity one day presents itself!

In all seriousness, I can see TMNT being one of those properties that Viacom (or whoever) just sits on forever once the well is dry, just to ensure nobody else gets a try. "Well, *we* can't make any money off of it... but just in case it's Us and not the brand that's the problem, we better make sure nobody else ever can, either." Disney does it a lot, buying stuff they'll never monetize just to spite everyone else. Or else "strip-mining" it to make a fast buck before sticking it on the back shelf.

In any case, I honestly doubt Viacom would actually try and sell it off once it was no longer incredibly profitable. There's always the 1% chance someone else can manage it better and turn it around, and then they're making money that was "yours" to make and you look like a dummy for letting it slip through your fingers. Nah, they'll just sit on it, that's what I think.

Originally Posted by AquaParade

I think there are a few years left to reinvigorate the franchise while there is still some goodwill left in the tank. I think the formula is sitting right there, in between the comics, the Henson film, and the MCU approach.

I think the MCU is actually a huge part of the problem.

"TMNT as a blockbuster" doesn't work. Look, I don't want to be "That Guy" but TMNT, on its face, is a LOT more "dumb" as a premise than just about any other thing that's ever been super-popular. It works on a more intimate and small-scale level. It's never been as popular as Batman or X-Men or whatever, and never will be, because while most of that stuff is only like two steps removed from any sort of reality, TMNT is like ten steps removed. The farther you get into a premise that's completely implausible, the smaller your prospective audience becomes. It's not quite fair to compare it to super-hero fiction because while that stuff is just as implausible, at least most of the characters generally resemble human beings. TMNT, on the other hand, is "funny animal" stuff, which most people will always dismiss out of hand as farcical. If Batman were literally "a man who's part bat, or something," it would never have been as popular as it is.

BUT, super-hero stuff is the only thing that sells anymore, therefore anyone trying to make a TMNT movie is going to try and do it "MCU-style"... and that, to me, is a recipe for disaster. We saw with the last flick how misguided that approach is, they literally tried to do TMNT as a Marvel movie and it was godawful. ANY TMNT movie done in that style would be godawful. That type of presentation is too "big" for what TMNT ought to be.

Meanwhile, there's the fact that TMNT isn't actually popular enough to make such an endeavor worth it, to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on a movie when there's not enough people who care about the brand to let it make its money back. TMNT isn't popular anymore. Why people insist on trying to compare it to things like Batman or X-Men which have never been out of fashion since their inception is puzzling, to me. It's not the same! Those brands didn't "die" twice. Sonic is a strange comparison as well because even though the games' reputations have taken a lot of lumps over the years, they've all sold incredibly well, even the "bad" ones. His comic book series is still one of the most successful licensed comics of all time, even if "real Sonic fans" who only cared about the games ignored it. So what we're seeing here, is people consistently compare TMNT - a franchise with a fanbase that has proven to be fickle and inattentive at the BEST of times - to things that have never been NOT-popular ever since they wer first popular. It's not 1:1.

Anyways, the conundrum with doing a TMNT movie is, the studios are in the mindset of "If we can't do TMNT as an MCU-style blockbuster, with all those same rewards, there's no point in even doing it." BUT, TMNT isn't popular enough to make MCU-style money, and even if there were enough people to fill those seats, the product would be terrible because TMNT works best as a smaller-scale, more "intimate" thing. Always has, always will.

I'd leave "the MCU" out of any equation that's trying to figure out how to make TMNT popular again, quite frankly. Square peg, round hole.

Not that it matters. I'll believe anyone actually still cares about TMNT when I see it for myself. Until then, my forecast remains unchanged. MCU-style, 1990-movie style... nobody cares anymore. It's a thing everyone liked when they were kids that some people still like but most others grew out of. That should be okay.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Leo656

You won't make any money on it but I wouldn't be shocked if the opportunity one day presents itself!

In all seriousness, I can see TMNT being one of those properties that Viacom (or whoever) just sits on forever once the well is dry, just to ensure nobody else gets a try. "Well, *we* can't make any money off of it... but just in case it's Us and not the brand that's the problem, we better make sure nobody else ever can, either." Disney does it a lot, buying stuff they'll never monetize just to spite everyone else. Or else "strip-mining" it to make a fast buck before sticking it on the back shelf.

In any case, I honestly doubt Viacom would actually try and sell it off once it was no longer incredibly profitable. There's always the 1% chance someone else can manage it better and turn it around, and then they're making money that was "yours" to make and you look like a dummy for letting it slip through your fingers. Nah, they'll just sit on it, that's what I think.

Oh darn it, and I actually have 35 episodes planned, better keep onto that on the off chance that the opportunity presents itself.

Spoiler:

In case you're wondering what it looks like:

1. No, I haven't written any actual scripts, I'm not that crazy. Of course I'm not going that far for something that I almost certainly won't be given the chance to make. It's basically just really short descriptions of what stories to adapt and what changes if any might be a good idea to implement.
2. They are all Mirage stories, I don't have any truly original stories planned but some probably would end up rather stretched and fillery.
3. Some would be really fillery, the most extreme case is that episode 29-35 would be entirely dedicated to adapting the Fugitoid micro.

Spoiler:

Yes, I know it's kind of stupid to write a plan for what's obviously a pipe dream. I just kind of find the process of making it somewhat therapeutic.

[AquaParade]

The MCU element would be the reverence for the source material. The MCU isn’t perfect about this, but when compared to Comic adaptions before the MCU existed, it’s incredibly faithful to the source material. I wouldn’t say the PD films took that approach at all. They copied the portal in the sky and called it a day.

Hard disagree that TMNT as a property isn’t worth pouring a lot of money into, in hopes of blockbuster returns. The franchise has already proven itself as a blockbuster contender more than once. First with the record-breaking 1990 film, and again with the opening numbers for the 2014 film, before word of mouth destroyed it. I know it’s easy to be pessimistic, but that’s just not true. There is a proven audience for this stuff. I’m guessing the Seth Rogen film makes it’s money back and then some as well, even if it’s a poor representation of the franchise.

To modern general audiences, this property isn’t much different from X-Men or Guardians of the Galaxy. It’s just another property they grew up loving (or didn’t) and will go to see if done in a way that appeals to their current demographic. Comic book properties are in, nostalgia is in, TMNT consistently opens #1 on its opening weekend at the box office, despite disappearing for years at a time. To say the property isn’t capable of making money anymore is silly. It’s quality that is in question.

The Sonic analogy is appropriate because the audience is continually willing to forgive a property that continually falls short of its potential. You are pointing out that Sonic consistently sells high, and that’s great because it proves the point. Those games suck, but people keep buying them. TMNT movies have been bad to mediocre since 1990, yet every new version opens at #1, before everyone realizes it’s just another poor take.

I do agree that tmnt work best as something a bit more intimate but I think the 1990 film showed you can be a blockbuster while still being goofy, strange, and intimate.

[TigerClaw]

Originally Posted by neatoman

I know, that's kind of the reason it's ultimately a good thing. It essentially means the Fred Wolf show isn't part of the "official" TMNT franchise.

If nothing else, it means the Fred Wolf cartoon won't ever air on Nickelodeon, stream on Paramount+ or get discs printed by Viacom. They will never directly profit from it. Which in turn, hopefully, means they will eventually be fine with dropping it's imagery and ideas from the marketing so that the franchise can finally move on from it.

The absolute best case scenario would be if it turns out there is some kind of clause that prevents anyone from directly reviving the show or coming too close too it. You know, kinda like how Mattel can license He-Man all they want but unless Dreamworks gets the license, there can't be a direct continuation of the Filmation cartoon. I'm hoping there is something similar and I'm really hoping it's more draconian. Basically, what I hope is in place here, is that there is something that makes it impossible for anyone to make Fred Wolf Season 11, or even make a cartoon that resembles it too much. I doubt that's actually a thing, otherwise it would be difficult to explain why Turtles Forever and Trans-Dimensional Turtles exist, but it sure would be sweet schadenfreude if it did.

They are never going to give up on the FW series, They will always find ways to do some crossover with them, We seen it done 3 times so far, I'm sure at some point they'll do another one and get the original VAs back, When it comes to nostalgia, FW isn't something they can't let go because it has a fanbase that grew up with it.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

The MCU element would be the reverence for the source material. The MCU isn’t perfect about this, when compared to Comic adaptions before the MCU existed, it’s incredibly faithful to the source material. I wouldn’t say the PD films took that approach at all. They copied the portal in the sky and called it a day.

Well, I'd say the actual faithfulness of the MCU tends to fluctuate a bit and it's always hard to map any particular MCU story onto a pre-existing comic book story. The most extreme example I can think of is Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings. The Ten Rings, Ta-Lo and Dweller in Darkness really didn't have anything to do with Shang-Chi in the comics... Or really each other beyond the fact that they all co-existed in the Marvel Universe.

When people say the MCU is more faithful than any previous adaptation, I wonder if it's only because of the shared universe concept and relatively accurate costume design. With something like Sam Raimi's Spider-Man trilogy, even though those movies just lift pages from the comics and construct a new narrative, I can still point to pages of Spider-Man comics and show that quite a few of them made it into those movies, which is a little harder with the MCU. And if we're trying to say that earlier movies tried to scrub the weird or silly away from the source materical, the MCU does that too. Because I can remember that even early on the MCU did things like actively trying to make it seem as if Asgard wasn't a magic land populated by literal gods, declaring instead that they used advanced tech and even having Odin straight up say they aren't gods. That is admittedly a move they seemed to ignore later on but still.

If it's really just the shared universe and not much else, then it's less about being more faithful and more about the MCU having a bigger toolbox by not being as limited in the character selection.

If the PD movies were more like the MCU in it's approach... I'm not entirely sure what that would be?

Would it be something like this?:

1. TMNT 1
2. Casey Jones 1
3. TMNT 2
4. Fugitoid 1
5. April O'Neil 1
6. TMNT 3 guest starring the Fugitoid
7. Nobody 1
8. Radical 1
9. Justice Force 1
10. Casey Jones 2
11. Utroms 1
12. Shredder 1
13. Fugitoid 2
14. TMNT 4
15. Nobody 2
16. April O'Neil 2
17. Justice Force 2
18. TMNT 5

And so on and so forth? Because that's not exactly faithfulness on it's own, that's just doing a lot with the same continuity.

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

They are never going to give up on the FW series, They will always find ways to do some crossover with them, We seen it done 3 times so far, I'm sure at some point they'll do another one and get the original VAs back, When it comes to nostalgia, FW isn't something they can't let go because it has a fanbase that grew up with it.

... OK:

1. That fanbase is aging, the average Fred Wolf fan is probably over 40 years old.
2. The show has not been in re-runs since 1997 (somewhat ironic given that it qualifies for guaranteed syndication three times over), so it is doubtful a younger fanbase of that particular version exists in any meaningful capacity.
3. Having already done three crossovers does not mean another one will be made. The last one they made failed to get any attention
4. Barry Gordon is 73, Rob Paulsen is 65, Cam Clarke is 64, Townsend Coleman is 67, Peter Renaday is 86, Renae Jacobs is 64, Pat Fraley is 72 and James Avery is dead. How many more cameos do think you can squeeze out of them before one of them croaks and it becomes harder to call it a reunion?
5. Sooner or later they're going to have to give up on this version, they can't directly profit from it and eventually it will just make more sense to use a version they do own as the "basis".

I mean honestly, just give it time. Do you really care about those early Batman serials or did you just learn about them second-hand?

[AquaParade]

Well if you're asking me, I'd say again that the shared universe element wasn't what I was referring to.

But I do think the MCU is quite faithful when you compare it to pre-2008 comic book movies. Spider-Man is a poor example for that comparison, because I'd agree with you that in some ways the Raimi versions were more faithful (though in some ways not).

I think its easy to point out where the MCU isn't faithful, but on the whole, it's the most faithful comic book film adaption ever, really. The shared universe is definitely a part of it's unique faithfulness to it's own source material, but that's just one example.

We could point out differences from the source material all day, and I don't see that as a negative, but on the whole, it's easy to see that the MCU is more faithful to it's source than TMNT usually is, no?
The spirit of the Marvel comics is certainly represented in the movies. You can't say that for TMNT, generally speaking. There's no comparison when it comes to which movies represent the source material more faithfully, 1990 film aside.


That all said, just for fun, if Viacom were to take a shared universe approach, which is probably tempting, I'd see them doing it in the current approach of utilizing streaming services. You can't do a Casey Jones movie, but you can do a mini-series on Paramount+. Same for April O'Neil or Oroku Saki.

But, all in all, I really don't think that's the best approach for the property. I think a low-budget blockbuster is where it's at. Along the lines of the 1990 film, or Deadpool, in terms of scope.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Spoiler:

Yes, I know it's kind of stupid to write a plan for what's obviously a pipe dream. I just kind of find the process of making it somewhat therapeutic.

Fun is fun, brother. You do you, how you amuse yourself in your spare time is nobody else's business. No apology/explanation necessary.

Originally Posted by AquaParade

The franchise has already proven itself as a blockbuster contender more than once. First with the record-breaking 1990 film, and again with the opening numbers for the 2014 film, before word of mouth destroyed it. I know it’s easy to be pessimistic, but that’s just not true. There is a proven audience for this stuff. I’m guessing the Seth Rogen film makes it’s money back and then some as well, even if it’s a poor representation of the franchise.

To the bold:
1. TMNT 1990 was mostly a "blockbuster" because it cost ten bucks to make. Yes, it did good business, but it's only barely a "real" movie, it's an indie film that got a studio picture-style release. It's like calling "The Blair Witch Project" a "blockbuster" because it made a million times its budget back; they spent a buck-fitty on it, if it were a "real" movie it would've only been considered a moderate success at best because it would've cost a ton more to make (even if it ended up being the exact same movie, more or less). TMNT 1990, same thing. Its financial success is in direct correlation with the fact it was a nickel-and-dime production. It was a GOOD one, they did a good job hiding the scotch tape, I'm just saying.

2. Yeah, there's a proven audience for TMNT. Every single one of them is 35+ and the pool has been shrinking exponentially every year as people die or get bored of it. There is no "new audience" and it's kind of silly by this point to really expect there to ever be.

Seriously, go wrangle enough "TMNT fans" aged 25 and under to fill a single movie theater. Seeing is believing, I'll believe there's a whole great big untapped audience for TMNT when I see it for myself. So far, all I see is the same 1988 kids doing their own best to keep things going, and nobody else cares.

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

FW isn't something they can't let go because it has a fanbase that grew up with it.

"Never" is a very long time and we're all gonna die someday. When the last of the "'80s Kids" is in the ground, FW dies with them. Nobody younger than us cares about that show.

Originally Posted by neatoman

When people say the MCU is more faithful than any previous adaptation, I wonder if it's only because of the shared universe concept and relatively accurate costume design.

Oh, definitely. I keep waiting for more people to realize that those movies are really all like, "Yo... this super-hero stuff is dumb, and you're dumb for liking it, you realize this, right?" but people generally don't. They're not in on the joke, and I guess it's because they're all razzle-dazzled by the costumes not looking like sh*t. So many of them are like, two steps more "faithful" than "Batman & Robin" was and yet nobody can see that but me, it seems.

It's like how the 2016 Ghostbusters reboot was all "This Ghostbusters stuff is SO DUMB and you're so dumb for taking it seriously. But whatever, here's a movie, ya goofy manbabies." That's what almost every Marvel movie feels like to me. Although granted, after Avengers 2 I've only seen snippets. But yeah, the entire MCU to me comes off as a giant goof that the audience somehow isn't in on.

Originally Posted by AquaParade

But I do think the MCU is quite faithful when you compare it to pre-2008 comic book movies.

This is fair, although that wasn't a very high bar to clear. Before Raimi's Spider-Man flick, the most "faithful" super-hero movie was probably Batman '89, and that... well, everyone at DC initially hated it when it was released, so that just about says it all I think.

[AquaParade]

Actually, TMNT 1990 was a success in spite of its low budget, not because of it. The movie didn’t just make it’s money back, it was the 9th highest grossing film of 1990, and a huge success by all accounts. Low budget made the film a money-maker for the studio. It didn’t make it a box office success. Huge difference.

And the audience was still there in 2014. The opening weekend did great before word out mouth got out on the film. I highly doubt the age demographic making up the 2014 audience was all 30+, but I’m sure someone can look that up. The property in a ripe spot to aim at all ages. Older fans remember and the property has always appealed to kids.

[TigerClaw]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Actually, TMNT 1990 was a success in spite of its low budget, not because of it. The movie didn’t just make it’s money back, it was the 9th highest grossing film of 1990, and a huge success by all accounts. Low budget made the film a money-maker for the studio. It didn’t make it a box office success. Huge difference.

And the audience was still there in 2014. The opening weekend did great before word out mouth got out on the film. I highly doubt the age demographic making up the 2014 audience was all 30+, but I’m sure someone can look that up. The property in a ripe spot to aim at all ages. Older fans remember and the property has always appealed to kids.

Yep! TMNT is for all ages, Every generation has its favorite version of TMNT.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

Yep! TMNT is for all ages, Every generation has its favorite version of TMNT.

I don't think it is the case, since aside from original series an the first movie, every other version of TMNT failed to make a real lasting impression.

Pretty much no-one talks about 2k3 series, very few mention 2k12 series this days and Rise...well...barely a blip on a radar. The same can be said about Bay movies. I would go so far as to say, that even Next Mutation is more remembered than any of the modern TMNT stuff.

[AquaParade]

Both 2K3 and 2012 were restively popular with kids and lasted longer than the average children’s television program. Then people grew out of them. It doesn’t mean anything, really. I’d say the property is just as capable of gearing at all ages, as any other comic property.

Rise… didn’t catch on, but it hardly resembles what most people think of as TMNT, which probably only strengthens the point.

[Leo656]

Kids were not the bulk of the people watching the 2003 show, the 2012 show, Rise, or the Bay movies. Not even close. Very few kids paid attention to ANY of that stuff.

"People Who Were Kids In 1988" were the overwhelming majority of people who paid any attention to ANY of it.

This is an oft-proven statement of Pure Fact and yet people keep trying to handwave it.

TMNT has never, and WILL never, prove successful in "growing it's audience into a new generation". They've struck out repeatedly at that. Only the original 80s fans have ever consistently cared. They/We are the ones who've kept everything afloat. Everyone else from 2003 onward has been fair-weather. Few to no "new fans" STAYED fans. If you got into TMNT any later than 1993, there's about a 1% chance you're still paying attention NOW.

I don't see how ignoring consistently-proven facts gets anyone anywhere, nor what point it serves. "I want the brand to stay popular!" Well, it's kinda not anymore. "I don't want the brand to die!" Well, tough, one day it will because everything does. I don't make the rules. The only consistent fact about the universe is entropy. Everything Dies.

Furthermore, we've reached a point where an overwhelming amount of TMNT products that have ever been produced are garbage. A few gems, a whole lotta raw sewage (appropriately). Why care so much? Why fight so hard to "save" it? Sure, there's always been some untapped story potential in it but that potential will never be realized because it's only for nose-pickers, now. So who cares if it dies? Like seriously, does TMNT have to go full-on Paw Patrol before we can collectively agree that it needs to be put out of its misery?

I don't get it, man. If there was ANY good stuff coming out, or on the horizon, that'd be a different story. But it's all crap, it's all GONNA be crap, and it's owned by a company that's not interested in making anything BUT crap. So again, who cares?

Brand had a good run. But it's peak was forever ago and we're beyond mere "diminishing returns" at this point. It's pathetic.

F*ck TMNT. I'm sayin' it. F*ck this franchise right in the goddamn ear.

Originally Posted by Sumac

I don't think it is the case, since aside from original series an the first movie, every other version of TMNT failed to make a real lasting impression.

Pretty much no-one talks about 2k3 series, very few mention 2k12 series this days and Rise...well...barely a blip on a radar. The same can be said about Bay movies. I would go so far as to say, that even Next Mutation is more remembered than any of the modern TMNT stuff.

Yep. Definitely.

Aside from selling 40-year olds their own childhood nostalgia, this brand has no relevance at all. Zero. None.

[AquaParade]

Yeah, I'd need some type of proof that the majority of people watching 2003 and 2012 were adults.

As for your question regarding why I want to "save" the franchise or whatever, I really don't see it that way. I'm not defending the franchise or trying to save it, I'm just calling it like I see it.

Like, you're free to do your doom & gloom bit. I actually don't think the franchise is in a good place, and I won't bet on Viacom steering it in the direction it should go.
But I'm also not going to pretend the franchise is a dead fish that hasn't appealed to anyone under 35 since it's inception. I'm not going to pretend that it has no potential.

[Leo656]

Then you're simply in denial. Deep.

[AquaParade]

About kids watching the 2k3 and 2k12 shows? Nahhh

I mean, none of it has anything to do with denial, but especially not that. I have much more important things to be in denial about. This franchise having potential but being in a bad spot, is just the way it is.

[Leo656]

There were a few. Nobody's denying there were a few.

But they were at most 10% of the audience watching. And most of them were the kids of people who come to this forum, trying to "educate" their kids about TMNT like "See, this is what I watched when I was your age!" If the kids didn't have their parents trying to shove their own interests down their throats, it's kind of up in the air how many kids would have chosen to watch TMNT of their own volition.

Regardless, it didn't take. ALMOST none of the kids from 2003 (or 2012) stuck around. Their parents did, because TMNT fans have always had Battered Wives' Syndrome. But the kids they tried to expose to TMNT? They liked it for a little while, then forgot about it.

Anecdotally, this forum has always been FULL of those same parents going, "Yeah, I tried to get my kid into TMNT but it didn't stick, bummer." But if you go out into the Real World and ask people, it's very much the same.

I'm not just making sh*t up because I hate what the brand has become. It's simple Observe & Report. OBVIOUSLY a few snot-nosed brats sat down to watch a new TMNT cartoon whenever one gets floated out there. But almost none of them stuck around long. Only ONE generation of kids has ever stayed fans of TMNT for longer than a year or so: Mine.

How many times does the cycle have to repeat itself before people can make peace with the fact that the brand hasn't had any actual penetration with kids since 1993? C'mon now. Furthermore, whenever I say things like "TMNT is actually NOT a kids property", that's exactly what I mean. It by definition can't be a "kids property" because kids haven't cared about it in 30 f*cking years, or at least they don't care for longer than five minutes.

It's like dude, I love MOTU but I'm not gonna stand over here in denial and pretend it's "popular" again (even though it IS arguably more "popular" than TMNT is right now, but that won't last), just because there's been two new cartoons, three new toy lines, and talk of a new movie all within a short span of time. I'm not pretending anyone younger than 35 is watching those cartoons or buying those toys; a few are, yeah, but ONLY the kids of people my age who watched the original. They're not "choosing" to watch MOTU, they're being "fed" MOTU by their parents, just like TMNT. And just like TMNT, they watch it for a few minutes and then get bored with it, because deep down no kid wants to like what their boring old parents liked.

But no, kids aren't the ones buying He-Man toys or watching He-Man cartoons in 2021/2022. They weren't the ones in 2003, either. By next year, the kids playing with the He-Man dolls their Dad bought them for Christmas will be completely over it and forgetting it ever existed. There's no "new audience" for THAT brand, either, and there never will be. All the new stuff coming out isn't a "renaissance", it's a Nostalgia Wave, and it's already peaked and it's already fizzling out; nobody watched the second half of "Revelation", and none of the kids the CGI MOTU reboot was created for are watching it, either, nor are they buying the toys. Only people my age are paying any attention.

Just like TMNT. It's the same f*cking thing. And y'know, that's fine! I don't even care. Stuff ends, and that's fine. But again, just because MOTU is getting way more heat right now than it has in decades, does that make it "popular"? NO, don't be dumb. It's my favorite thing ever but it hasn't been "popular" since 1987, and it never will be again.

TMNT is the same exact thing as MOTU. A nostalgia-act brand kept alive ONLY by people who were little kids 30+ years ago. Nobody else ever has, or ever will, give a sh*t. Not consistently.

The sky is blue, not pink. Wishing it were pink does not make it so, no matter how big a fan of pink you are.

[AquaParade]

Nah, I’d need more than anecdotal evidence that only 10% of the audience of a children’s Saturday morning cartoon was made up of actual children.
Especially that the technodrome members and their children were keeping the show afloat.
There aren’t even enough dromers with children here to make up even a small portion of the audience needed to sustain a show for over 6 seasons. Sorry, but that’s just crazy to say that those shows were kept alive by the people coming to this forum.

Children cartoon audiences aren’t made up of 90% adults. It’s just not the case with most cartoons and I don’t see tmnt as being a major exception. I'm willing to bet a larger portion than the average cartoon audience were adults, but 90%? No.

You’re confusing the situation, when one of your points to the fact that kids don’t like tmnt, is that they grow out of it. That doesn’t mean kids don’t like tmnt, that means kids grow up.

Unfortunately, with comics as a dying market, the video game market relatively untapped, and stories aimed primarily at children, there is nothing for them to grow into. That doesn’t mean you can’t create a new branch of the franchise that appeals to both modern kids and adults, the same way the MCU or Batman does.

I gotta say, I find this whole back and forth about whether tmnt is capable of appealing to all ages in the same way Marvel does as pretty silly. I mean, we can pick it apart and dissect it but at the end of the day, the brand is perfectly capable of appealing to different demographics and has proven itself in that way many times over. The tricky part is appealing to both at once, but even that was done to a fair extent with the 1990 movie.

It's really not about how popular the franchise is or isn't right now, so we should avoid getting the two subject confused.