Do you like the way Donnie acts around April this series? - Page 4

*pennydreadful* · 06-21-2014, 01:44 AM

It does occur to me that we're regarding Donnie's behavior through the lenses of our own experiences. One of the prices of growing up I guess, is that by the time we're old enough and educated enough to properly analyze these types of things, we're also unable to view them without subconsciously drawing upon our own biases and emotions.

Konchadunga · 06-21-2014, 02:09 AM

I can say, without giving away too much, that I went much further than Don did in pursuing my High School crush. However, I can also say I never became a rapist, and in fact, learned my lesson well, as it became clear to me she and I were not on the same page and I was scaring her.

I think a big part of the problem here, and why Don doesn't learn any tangible lesson regarding his attitude, is because the show's budget and workload don't lend themselves well to developing April more. While there's no excuse for some of the dumber comments Ciro Nieli made about women, I generally believe him when he says CGI places severe limits on the amount of situations a show is able to cover; meaning that the Turtles and their main antagonists are obviously the priority, while most humans--both male and female--get shafted. Look at Casey Jones for a perfect male example: Back in the 2003 series, we got to see him working out at his apartment, a flashback detailing why he became a vigilante, and plenty bits where he's just interacting with other humans; 2012 Casey generally comes into play only when April and Don need some sort of foil, or situations are so heated that they need every teammate they can get.

Moreso than either past cartoon, in this show it really feels like it's the Turtles' world, and others just play in it; instead of vice-versa.

*Leo656* · 06-21-2014, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

It does occur to me that we're regarding Donnie's behavior through the lenses of our own experiences. One of the prices of growing up I guess, is that by the time we're old enough and educated enough to properly analyze these types of things, we're also unable to view them without subconsciously drawing upon our own biases and emotions.

I get what you're saying, but in my case, it pushes me even more against the entire thing.

Full disclosure - and in truth, this entire thing embarrasses the living sh*t out of me and makes me wish I could beat my younger self to a pulp for being a moron - but when I was in high school, I more or less had a Donnie/April thing going on with a girl I knew who was a grade ahead. We were super-close, "best friends", did everything together, had a lot of similar interests and hang-ups, the whole deal. Over time, I fell in what I assumed was love with her, and after talking to a few mutual friends about it, I decided honesty was the best course of action. So I told her, and while she was nice enough about it, she more or less told me there was no chance we'd ever be together. She understood that feelings just don't evaporate, so she just figured she would wait it out and it would go away on its own, but it didn't. The more we hung out, the more all the stuff I liked about her made me like her even more. When she moved away to go to college, we talked for hours on the phone a few times a week, and in some ways we grew closer than ever, but the whole time, each of us was thinking the other was going to change their mind and "give in": Either I would "grow out of" my crush on her, or she would "realize" that we were "perfect" for each other. I figured it would end up in my favor, because a few of our friends were kind of nudging her to give it a chance, but in the moment, I had no idea how sad, pathetic, creepy and stalker-y I was coming off.

And I totally wasn't trying to be; I just figured, based on evidence, "Well, she's confused right now, and our friendship has literally everything she claims she wants in a relationship, and eventually she'll see that." What I hadn't factored in was that in college, she'd make new friends, who would advise her that having a friend harboring these feelings for her even after being told "no chance" wasn't healthy for anyone involved. So, long story short, one day I got a call out of the blue where she told me we were no longer friends and I was forbidden from ever speaking to her again. I took that to heart, and I haven't. She split off from a bunch of our other friends, too - mostly for "enabling" me - and since then I've noticed that a lot of them nonetheless have her as a friend on Facebook, so I guess they worked it all out amongst themselves, but I truly feel bad that I made her so uncomfortable and forced our friends to put up with my whiny, "I-love-her-why-doesn't-she-love-me" bullsh*t, so I've kept my word and never reached out to her. It's better off, I think.

Point being, these "innocent little crush" scenarios never work out, No Means No, and putting this kind of thing in a kids show as if it's just cute innocent fun sends a dangerous message. Having been there - and my devotion wasn't 1/100th of how obsessed Donnie acts in this show - I can safely say that were it a more true-to-life scenario, neither April or Donnie would come out of it in the end in a very emotionally healthy place. They *probably* wouldn't even be friends anymore. Unlike some people, I *do* remember going through all that, and it sucks, and it sucks in this show, because at best it's simply not realistic and at worst it sends the message that acting like Donnie is OK, when it isn't.

So, I wish they never even went there in this show. Frankly, I don't have any problem with the whole inter-species thing, as they're both sapient creatures, and it's all fiction so who gives a sh*t, but a Nick show aimed at the ages-5-and-up crowd is never going to completely "go there", so it's pointless to even string it along. All it does is make Donnie look like a potential sex offender... and we ALL know that Raphael is the date rapist.

Konchadunga · 06-21-2014, 03:04 AM

From what I read, I don't think you were at fault; unless you were so sexually oriented that you placed no value at all on the idea of a platonic friendship for its own sake. If not, then she, and her new friends, made much ado about nothing; or at least, as little as made no difference. I have female friends whom I had a crush on and who went with other men, and I'm very glad that those new people have never planted the idea in their heads that I'm insistent upon getting with them when I talk to them. It's okay to consider other people at fault sometimes; not because they chose not to be your girlfriend, but because they chose not to be your friend friend when by all other factors they could have been. People are going to be a lot lonelier if the "this guy might want to get into my pants" factor is too eminent in their mind.

And once again, your example is not the only one. There are girls who like being "stalked" (to use the more liberal definition Netkeeper insists upon); as in the case of those who feel so lonely normally that any attention is good. In fact, the girl I "stalked" in High School returned my interest at first, until she got a new boyfriend over the Summer. So no; Don's behavior does not necessarily send a bad message; the problem is that what kind of message it sends is almost a moot point when what type of girl April is doesn't really get specified. If only they would do something like portray her as a nerd at school who was never popular, but happens to share a lot in common with the guy who happens to have fallen into a situation where he fell in love with her, then this would seem viable. Maybe not interesting or deep, but something resembling what an actual healthy relationship is.

*Leo656* · 06-21-2014, 03:38 AM

Well, it's complicated. I may not have been "at fault", but if I had taken No for what it's worth and not pushed the issue, I might still have her for a friend, most likely, and she truly was a terrific person, which is part of what I liked about her. And I definitely did want to bang her, but she not only knew that, she was surprisingly accepting of the whole thing - she was one of those newfangled super-feminist "liberated" types, and thought casual sex between "just friends" was perfectly fine. I just wasn't one of the friends on her list.

But more than just anything simply physical, what really made me think we were a "match" was how for each of us, out of everyone we knew, we best "got" each other. We both knew that and admitted it numerous times, which didn't make the whole thing any easier, honestly.

Not to point fingers - especially since all she did to instigate the crush was be herself - but a person could be forgiven for thinking that she did kind of send a lot of mixed signals. We're both very physical, affectionate, "huggy" people, so there was always a lot of that going on. And we agreed that within the "limits" of friendship, we did "love" each other, and told each other often. Not that I didn't understand the distinction, but it did give me a hope that our friendship could eventually grow beyond. But again, from where we were with each other, we both were simply being honest with each other, not "leading anyone on" or deliberately sending mixed signals. It was just a messed-up, confusing situation that ended in a huge mess of hurt feelings. I've never been sure if it would have been better if she had just laughed me off and told me to get lost right from the start. Because frankly, I'd long gotten used to that anyway. So I've never really bought the "Better to have loved and lost..." idea, because you can't miss what you never had, after all.

In the end, it almost certainly worked out for the best, because later on, since we weren't speaking anymore, some of our friends let me in on things they'd known about her but hadn't wanted to tell me because it would upset me. Stuff like how she nailed a guy we were both friends with, on random impulse, despite the fact she kind of couldn't stand him, simply because he fit her definition of "cute". There were other things, but that was a big one that made me realize, "Wow, turns out there were a lot of reasons we just wouldn't work, after all. Good thing we dodged that bullet."

Plus, it took me forever to realize, from a guy's perspective, that chasing does no good. If they're serious, they'll come to you.

That might sound messed up, but the only dating/sexual relationships I've ever had that more or less "worked out" were ones that I didn't instigate. Maybe it's different for other folks. But to this day, whenever I see a guy go out of his way to "chase" a girl, I hardly ever think, "that's so romantic," I'm more apt to think, "Man, that's just sad." Maybe my perspective got skewed, I'unno.

I mean, it's one of those things in life that happens, and it's a big part of "growing up" for most people, but unless the endgame of the Nick show is for some reason to leave Donnie a confused, insecure, neurotic, socially-paranoid wreck by the end of it... MUST we go there? I'unno. Seems a little too much, for no reason.

*victory_angel* · 06-21-2014, 04:14 AM

Donnie does pay attention to April's feelings though and visual cues.

Such as this one moment in Alien Agenda where Donnie holds out his arms to hug April, and April looks at him as if saying "Yeah, I'm not doing that". And he accepts that she didn't want a hug from him at that moment in time.

Spoiler:

Yeah there have been times he's practically let blurted out he loves April and wants her as a girl friend. But every times he has he's back pedaled and apologizes for it.

For example when he accidentally says "My April" she looks at him as if saying 'Since when am I yours'. But he automatically lets on that was something he hadn't meant to say and she accepts it as that.

Later in Karai's Vendetta he calls April once they get back to the lair to see if she's alright. And she cheerfully answers because she's glad to know that even though he could not be there for her, he cared enough to make sure she was okay.

And yes he does accidentally call her "My sweet princess" but automatically apologizes by saying "Please say I muted that?" And April kindly decides to let it slide, because she's come to recognize that yes Donnie has feelings for her, but he doesn't want them to get farther then she's comfortable with.

If Donnie was as obsessive as some of you have described, he would be doing a lot more once Casey came into the picture.

Such as that moment he slips away from training to see if she is in the park. Yes he is deluding himself into believing she would be willing to see him as he does ask himself "Would it be weird for me to just show up?" Even though he knows she had specifically said that she never wanted to see any of them again. But the poor guy was miserable? Miserable because he feels responsible for the fact she is for all intents and purposes an orphan? And also because he misses her?

Yes when he sees April with Casey he is upset yes. And he is noticeably irked when Leo refers to Casey as April's boyfriend. But with the way you guys describe him it sounds like he appear to them and demanded to know what they were doing together? Or maybe personally confronting Casey and telling him to stay away from April if he knew what was good for him. But he doesn't? And when he talks to April in "Target: April O'Neil" he doesn't tell her he is aware of Casey nor does he bring this matter up when Casey is introduced later. As much as having the person who he sees as a rival for April's affections being aware of them is an irritation he doesn't say anything of "You're the punk kid that has been hanging out with April?"

April has enough sense to know where her comfort zone is, and enough of a mind to let both of her suitors know when they are crossing a line.

I'm going to use Gargoyles as an example: There was one episode towards the end of the Original Series where the Trio are flirting with Goliath's Daughter, Angela or Angie as the Trio are calling her in that episode. And they are also fighting each other over who should have her. Angela for her part is clearly irritated by their actions, but she doesn't know how to react to them because she isn't use to them as people just yet. So there is one moment where she asked Elisa about their behavior. Elisa just responds by saying that it's more then likely due to to the fact that it's been 1000 years since they've seen a female gargoyle (Not counting Demona) and that Angela is a big girl and should let them know how she wants to be treated. So Angela makes it quite clear that she doesn't want to be called Angie any more she doesn't appreciate them fighting over her. And in the end they all apologize for their behavior and she accept their apology.

I can't speak for Casey, but if she told Donnie she liked him but only as a friend and maybe a brother but that's it. He would accept that as her choice, he wouldn't like it but he would accept that as an honest statement of where her feelings for him are. And that could be something April herself would do once she is sure of her feelings.

In fact the sweetest moments between them are the moments where he's just there for her as a friend. Yeah saving/ curing her dad can be taken as selfishness because he wants to do that to make him like her. However let's say he hadn't fallen in love with her the first moment he saw her, would he not have tried to rescue her and her father because it was the right thing to do? Would he have gone out of his way to find return her father because he felt he owed her that? Would he struggle to do what was considered impossible by developing a way to restore her fathers humanity in order to right a wrong that had been committed?

However there are hints April isn't all that comfortable around Casey. She likes him as a friend, and she's comfortable around him as a friend. But he's the one who is saying he wants to be doing something where the two of them are in a more cozy situation. However every time he asks when they are going to go on a real date, she always tells him not to push things, or asks "Who said this was a date?"

Heck in Pizza Face when she picks up the pizza and says she's going to go share it with Casey. Irma says "You're not going to see Jones, your going to see those secret friends of yours?"

*BubblyShell22* · 06-21-2014, 08:01 AM

Gotta agree with Raphtastic and VA here. Donnie isn't stalking April or demanding that she choose him at all. And when Splinter presented his lesson about not forcing April to come back to them, Don respected that and didn't try to force her to come back to them. He wanted her to come back because he was truly sorry, not because he was stalking her. Haven't you ever had a falling out with one of your friends and you feel guilty about it and want to apologize and make up for it because you like that person and want to be friends again? I have, and I've felt the same way Donnie has in regards to that. In the end, my friends and I would make up, and that would be that. That's what Don wanted to do because he felt guilty for what he and his brothers did, and that's the same reason he wanted to find a retro-mutagen for Kirby. No stalking involved there.

I'm sorry for what happened to you, Leo, and I can understand why you would think this show is going there, but I don't agree. Yeah, teens can be stupid about love because they just don't know that love takes time to develop, but I don't think Don is really displaying the behavior that you did or went through at all. He just genuinely cares for her and he knows that there's a chance she won't choose him. He even says this in "Mutagen Man Unleashed" to Timothy.

*Netkeeper* · 06-21-2014, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssjup81

Yeah, he does obsess over everything. He overthinks and overdoes things...like someone who is OCD. That really explains his chart.

Okay, wow. If you don't see the implications of what you said, I feel sorry for you. I hope somebody with OCD never sees this post.

Quote: