Turtles wear red masks again

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by pferreira

Well I wouldn't say the self contained episodes were bad so what's the problem? The show never had an issue really with pacing bar maybe a couple of episodes and ok some stories were crazy but within those crazy stories they made sense.

... I have a problem with the pacing of the episodes, the show was constantly adding pointless scenes to fill out time. I have a problem a problem with the plots, as they are full of nonsensical turns. You might not have a problem with those issues, but I could easily point out what I think doesn't work.

Originally Posted by pferreira

Now that sounds like a strawman argument. From what I understand the cartoon was only funded by PlayMates for the first season. Season 2 onwards was funded by Fred Wolf or his investors. Please feel free to correct me if this is incorrect info. I'm not saying the IDW comic book is trying to sell toys, I'm saying it's not different to the Fred Wolf cartoon in keeping the brand alive by making money. You're trying to separate a cartoon you don't like from something you love and it isn't working. I can understand why writers like Brynne Chandler get annoyed with fans who think they weren't making an effort when they were.

"Playmates only funded season 1" my ass, it smells like an insane amount of BS. If that was true, why the constant influx of of things from the toyline? Why make episodes featuring Wingnut, Screwloose, Mondo Gecko, The Mutagen Man, Muckman, Slash, Scumbug, that weird mutagen toilet and whatever else if they weren't required to do so? Why not edit the episodes properly? Why rush the animation?

I'm not trying to seperate the FW cartoon from TMNT, I'm pointing out that it doesn't make any sense to say it wasn't mainly a toy commercial. As for "not different to the Fred Wolf cartoon in keeping the brand alive by making money.", please don't make that kind of excuse. It doesn't change the awful animation or writing, making money is not an excuse for poor quality.

As for effort, dude, these kinds of show were notorious for demanding quantity over quality and I seriously doubt FW TMNT wasn any different. Here's a qoute from Donald F. Glut on Transformers, he worked on plenty of cartoon from that era.

Originally Posted by Donald F. Glut

No one, not even the story editors, looked at these scripts very carefully. I seem to remember the show being on a really tight schedule, and we had to crank these scripts out fast. I wrote some of them in a single day, first draft, and they went almost immediately to the storyboard artists after Bryce or an assistant gave them a rather cursory read. We were not trying to create art, just get them done fast, and get paid...

None of the writing on this series, in my opinion, was good or passionate or, sometimes (my own included, like The Autobot Run) even adequate. But we got paid well for writing them fast.... I was never a fan of any of the characters.

http://web.archive.org/web/200702171...view_glut.html

Again, not from a FW writer but from a collegue of the FW writers and it really shows what working on these sort of shows was like.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Love the FW show to death, and I think its actually really good. I didn't even grow up with it, I began watching it when I was 15 and now I have almost completed the whole thing after many years, having learned about its existence quite sometime after I watched Nick and 2k3.

I can understand people who love the show to discuss it for enjoyment and even haters who mock it in a fun way, but what's the point of over-analyzing and being very serious about bad writing, plots and "objectively" poor what not? Is there really any enjoyment that comes out of it? Besides,FW bashing isn't really allowed here as far as I know so respect FW for the great show it is!

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Love the FW show to death, and I think its actually really good. I didn't even grow up with it, I began watching it when I was 15 and now I have almost completed the whole thing after many years, having learned about its existence quite sometime after I watched Nick and 2k3.

I can understand people who love the show to discuss it for enjoyment and even haters who mock it in a fun way, but what's the point of over-analyzing and being very serious about bad writing, plots and "objectively" poor what not? Is there really any enjoyment that comes out of it? Besides,FW bashing isn't really allowed here as far as I know so respect FW for the great show it is!

pferreira started to use strawman arguments and I felt the need to adress them. I don't really care wheter or not people enjoy the show, they can enjoy whatever the hell they want, but to say things like:

Originally Posted by pferreira

After neatoman's last response I asked original series writer Brynne Chandler about fans criticism of the lack of story arcs and the fact it was meant as nothing more than a 'cheap toy commercial'.

As if I or anyone else thinks the writing isn't bad for other reasons, that the writing only sucks because there aren't any story arcs, is ridiculous. Nobody was saying that episodic TV was bad or that the show should have a serialised narrative.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by pferreira

From what I understand the cartoon was only funded by PlayMates for the first season.

Yeah, that sounds like horse puckey.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by neatoman

... I have a problem with the pacing of the episodes, the show was constantly adding pointless scenes to fill out time. I have a problem a problem with the plots, as they are full of nonsensical turns. You might not have a problem with those issues, but I could easily point out what I think doesn't work.

Ok that's your opinion but I don't go around short changing a show for problems it didn't have.

Originally Posted by neatoman

"Playmates only funded season 1" my ass, it smells like an insane amount of BS. If that was true, why the constant influx of of things from the toyline? Why make episodes featuring Wingnut, Screwloose, Mondo Gecko, The Mutagen Man, Muckman, Slash, Scumbug, that weird mutagen toilet and whatever else if they weren't required to do so? Why not edit the episodes properly? Why rush the animation?

From what I understand Playmates weren't interested in funding Season 2 onwards as they'd done what they set out to do. Fred Wolf bought the rights with help from investors. He made a deal with Playmates for them to continue making toys except they wouldn't be involved in funding for the series. As long as the toys were incorporated wherever possible into the series that would provide Playmates with profit while some of that would end up going into the Fred Wolf company. Why not edit the episodes properly? They were edited properly or are you talking about the European 'Hero Turtles' edits because that messed up the show. Why rush the animation? Simple, it was rushed because you have a syndicated cartoon series having to fulfill it's number of required episodes. You make 47 episodes for Season 3 and you're all expecting them to look perfect?! You really don't know anything about animation do you.

Originally Posted by neatoman

I'm not trying to seperate the FW cartoon from TMNT, I'm pointing out that it doesn't make any sense to say it wasn't mainly a toy commercial. As for "not different to the Fred Wolf cartoon in keeping the brand alive by making money.", please don't make that kind of excuse. It doesn't change the awful animation or writing, making money is not an excuse for poor quality.

We know you don't have any respect for the 80s cartoon, you don't need to make fake excuses as to why you don't like it.

Originally Posted by neatoman

As for effort, dude, these kinds of show were notorious for demanding quantity over quality and I seriously doubt FW TMNT wasn any different. Here's a qoute from Donald F. Glut on Transformers, he worked on plenty of cartoon from that era. Again, not from a FW writer but from a collegue of the FW writers and it really shows what working on these sort of shows was like.

Yeah but you're immediately assuming they didn't make any quality because of the quantity. I won't lie, that they had to crank scripts out however having chatted to Brynne Chandler every episode required a good idea and disregarding the writers work back then who worked on the show is wrong because they did what they could with the conditions. I know you don't believe this but they did actually care about their scripts. Animation/writing today could learn a lesson or two from back then, the good stuff, not the bad stuff obviously.

Originally Posted by neatoman

As if I or anyone else thinks the writing isn't bad for other reasons, that the writing only sucks because there aren't any story arcs, is ridiculous. Nobody was saying that episodic TV was bad or that the show should have a serialised narrative.

That's one big complaint of the 80s cartoon series on here as well as with other cartoons elsewhere so yeah I'm right to ask. You yourself said the purpose of the 80s cartoon was to be a 'cheap toy commercial'. I responded back with a quote from one of the writers that they did more than that, that they took more care.

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Love the FW show to death, and I think its actually really good. I didn't even grow up with it, I began watching it when I was 15 and now I have almost completed the whole thing after many years, having learned about its existence quite sometime after I watched Nick and 2k3.

I can understand people who love the show to discuss it for enjoyment and even haters who mock it in a fun way, but what's the point of over-analyzing and being very serious about bad writing, plots and "objectively" poor what not? Is there really any enjoyment that comes out of it? Besides,FW bashing isn't really allowed here as far as I know so respect FW for the great show it is!

Thank you! It's nice to see young people enjoying a 1980s cartoon series, I'm glad it doesn't put off every young viewer because of what's seen as an outdated style and not being modern enough. You raise got points as well.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Yeah, that sounds like horse puckey.

Yeah, there's no way Playmates didn't have some major influence after season 1. Even if there were other investors, Playmates had to be amongst them or else the show wouldn't promote the toys. I suspect Fred Wolf himself claims otherwise because easier to promote the DVD/iTunes if you don't admit it was just to promote toys throughout. What sounds easier to market, a hit show by a small studio or a corner cutting advertisement?

You know, the funny thing about this is that season one is generally agreed upon as the best season. So if this nonsense about Playmates only being involved with season one is somehow true, that would mean the meddling of a toy company was helping the quality of the show

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by pferreira

Ok that's your opinion but I don't go around short changing a show for problems it didn't have.

From what I understand Playmates weren't interested in funding Season 2 onwards as they'd done what they set out to do. Fred Wolf bought the rights with help from investors. He made a deal with Playmates for them to continue making toys except they wouldn't be involved in funding for the series. As long as the toys were incorporated wherever possible into the series that would provide Playmates with profit while some of that would end up going into the Fred Wolf company. Why not edit the episodes properly? They were edited properly or are you talking about the European 'Hero Turtles' edits because that messed up the show. Why rush the animation? Simple, it was rushed because you have a syndicated cartoon series having to fulfill it's number of required episodes. You make 47 episodes for Season 3 and you're all expecting them to look perfect?! You really don't know anything about animation do you.

We know you don't have any respect for the 80s cartoon, you don't need to make fake excuses as to why you don't like it.

Yeah but you're immediately assuming they didn't make any quality because of the quantity. I won't lie, that they had to crank scripts out however having chatted to Brynne Chandler every episode required a good idea and disregarding the writers work back then who worked on the show is wrong because they did what they could with the conditions. I know you don't believe this but they did actually care about their scripts. Animation/writing today could learn a lesson or two from back then, the good stuff, not the bad stuff obviously.

That's one big complaint of the 80s cartoon series on here as well as with other cartoons elsewhere so yeah I'm right to ask. You yourself said the purpose of the 80s cartoon was to be a 'cheap toy commercial'. I responded back with a quote from one of the writers that they did more than that, that they took more care.

Thank you! It's nice to see young people enjoying a 1980s cartoon series, I'm glad it doesn't put off every young viewer because of what's seen as an outdated style and not being modern enough. You raise got points as well.

Ok I'm just gonna give you a comprehensive list of the reasons I doubt they really cared about the quality.

1. The cranked out scripts, the "at least had to have a good idea" part seems like the lowest quality standard you could have for a script.
2. Why yes, cranking out 47 episodes out in 6 months will result in bad animation, that's why you shouldn't do it. Although that doesn't really explain why shorter seasons like season 2 or 9 don't look very good either...
3. What I meant with proper editing was that they could have fixed the animation errors or the sound mixing errors, but they didn't. It might have been harder back then but they could have (and should have) done it anyway.

As for your explaination of the deal... It seems like a very strange deal to make. It sounds like Fred Wolf and his investors basically agreed to produce a toy commercial free of charge, why not just make a deal that makes the show disconnected from the toyline entirely if he was going to pay for it himself?

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by neatoman

The cranked out scripts, the "at least had to have a good idea" part seems like the lowest quality standard you could have for a script.

Nope, good scripts start with good ideas. That's how scripts are done. I know you kids have been brought up on scripts made by committee but a good idea for a script and it then being expanded into a full story with dialogue is how scripts are actually and should be done.

Originally Posted by neatoman

Why yes, cranking out 47 episodes out in 6 months will result in bad animation, that's why you shouldn't do it. Although that doesn't really explain why shorter seasons like season 2 or 9 don't look very good either...

Haven't you read up on any of the history of the Fred Wolf show? 47 episodes were needed for Season 3 to make up the syndicated amount that was necessary, I think 65. Again, you're not looking at the wider picture of the time. Fred Wolf Films or MWS are or were an indie company. They ain't Disney or Warner Bros animation. You're expecting quality animation for every episode from an indie company? Please do some research before you criticise the show, please. I know it sounds like I'm being harsh but you can't criticise something that you clearly haven't got enough background info on. I'm not an expert but wondering why a studio does 47 episodes shows a lack of knowledge.

Originally Posted by neatoman

What I meant with proper editing was that they could have fixed the animation errors or the sound mixing errors, but they didn't. It might have been harder back then but they could have (and should have) done it anyway.

I agree and I'd love them to go back and do it now for blu-ray. The fact was Fred Wolf's company is an indie company with limited time and resources. They didn't have the budget for writer getaways or to hire TMS for every episode.

Originally Posted by neatoman

As for your explaination of the deal... It seems like a very strange deal to make. It sounds like Fred Wolf and his investors basically agreed to produce a toy commercial free of charge, why not just make a deal that makes the show disconnected from the toyline entirely if he was going to pay for it himself?

Playmates paid for the first season. They didn't want to pay for the following seasons although they were eager to support the show in toys once the show became popular. What you're suggesting was not what they were going for because it was only with the first season's success Fred Wolf got the investment for future seasons. Your Transformers example is kind of flawed because that was mostly a toy commercial. Fred Wolf says on the Turtle Power documentary he didn't want the 80s Turtles cartoon to be simply a toy commercial which is why the series had more character development than Transformers did. Hasbro's mandate with a Transformers episode was to show their range of toys. Mirage just made a deal with Playmates to help them develop toys which could be incorporated into the cartoon wherever possible.

Originally Posted by neatoman

Yeah, there's no way Playmates didn't have some major influence after season 1. Even if there were other investors, Playmates had to be amongst them or else the show wouldn't promote the toys. I suspect Fred Wolf himself claims otherwise because easier to promote the DVD/iTunes if you don't admit it was just to promote toys throughout. What sounds easier to market, a hit show by a small studio or a corner cutting advertisement?

You know, the funny thing about this is that season one is generally agreed upon as the best season. So if this nonsense about Playmates only being involved with season one is somehow true, that would mean the meddling of a toy company was helping the quality of the show

As confirmed by Fred Wolf in the Turtle Power documentary, taken from IMDB trivia:

"With a successful television premiere and five episodes that were available for repeats in spot syndication, Playmates shifted their focus toward the planned summer 1988 launch of the action figure line. The company was unwilling to commit funding for additional episodes beyond the miniseries. Fred Wolf wanted to continue the momentum and arranged a deal with Sachs-Finley that would give him ownership of the first five episodes, and then began the long process of trying to secure funding for the additional thirteen. All three major networks passed on the series and Wolf ended up making a deal with Group W, the TV division of Westinghouse. However, the budget was too steep for Group W and Fred Wolf offered to lower cost by a million dollars by offering to subsidize the show himself. It was a crapshoot on Wolf's part as he didn't have the money at the time and depended on one of the job Wolf was bidding on outside of the turtles. The crapshoot worked and the other stuff came through."

There's your humble pie.

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

While I understand why most versions of TMNT go with the individual colors, I have always wanted to see some TMNT animation with the Mirage-true all red masks.

Obviously, they won't do this for a whole TV series or a big budget theatrical movie, but I would love if they did like WB does for the DC comics heroes and made a line of Direct to DVD animated movies aimed at the hardcore fans.

Then we could get straight-from-Mirage story adaptations for adult fans. Imagine animated films based on memorable Mirage story-lines, taken right from the comics, drawn in as close to that issue's art style as is feasible for animation, complete with the mild swears, character deaths, and of course the all red masks.

And, just as WB can make DTV Batman movies based on Dark Knight Returns, Killing Joke, and now a "60s Batman" based one. The "TMNT multiverse" films wouldn't have to stick to just one version of TMNT. The door would be open to straight from the comics adaptations of Archie and IDW story-arcs as well. Even an original story set in the Fred Wolf TMNT universe would be do-able. This would have something for the whole fan-base.

Back on topic: For anyone bringing up that it would be hard to tell the Turtles apart outside of a comic, you're forgetting that they wouldn't have to sound alike. They'd still be voiced by different actors and have different voices (and for the hard-of hearing, the captions could simply indicate which Turtle is speaking during scenes when it might be hard to tell). So, that should clear up the confusion.

Anyway, while I must admit there are moments in the Mirage comics where it's hard to tell which Turtle is which. I don't think those moments happen very often. And, compare that to mask-coloring errors which happened just as often in the Archie (and from what I hear IDW), and way more often in the FW show, where when I was a kid half-the-fun was playing "spot the cel-painting-errors". I think it evens out.

[miru]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Only on a corporate, "What is probably going to make us the most money, historically?" level. With the possible exception of IDW, the colored masks have never been (re)born out of any other sort of agenda.



I don't think the old adage about, "if you try to please everybody, you will please nobody" is too far from the mark. I mean, I'm not so anal that I'm absolutely against intrinsically good elements from the children's spinoff stuff making it into new mainstream material... but it's got to be intrinsically good stuff. TMNT jambalaya, or making the creative puzzle "How do we rearrange these existing pieces from all these children's spinoff universes into something new?" instead of "How do we take the true spirit of the TMNT and come at it with a new, cohesive creative vision and really make it pop?" just seems pretty... I want to say lazy, but it's not (because I can imagine it being a lot of work in itself), but just plain shortsighted and the snake eating its own tail. Borderline fanfiction (which... it is, in a way, because now it is literally the fans bringing back to life their childhoods playing with toys on bigger platforms). I mean, King Tut doesn't need to be dusted off in Batman just because some kids laughed at him once in the 60s show and #nostalgia. Sure, I'm absolutely certain a talented writer could make a kickass version of King Tut that's awesome and scary and everything that character wasn't on the show... but if you're going to do all that, why even use that character? Would it be so off-the-wall to leave that character on the rack and -- gasp -- make something new?

You’re right! Ever since the buyout, the franchise has picked up intrinsically good elements and re-used them to make them staples. Everything that makes the franchise recognizable, but with a fresh feeling and tone to the whole deal. Everything feels consistent and balanced. Occasionally, DC will dig up some obscure villain in an attempt to salvage them. Not all of these second chances are successful, but many are. We all know about Harley, and King Tut and Roxy Rocket have worked like charms as well. Some others, like Lock-Up and Sin Tzu have been less successful.

The only version that really lifts things up for the sake of nostalgia is, surprise surprise, the awful PD films. Any other time this is done, it’s for a one-off joke or to try and make SOMETHING out of NOTHING, Spinning straw into gold. IDW has been completely successful, Nick has mostly spun straw into steel, and the PD films have all failed. Just one out of four major incarnations failed at this.

On topic, I could still see this happening again, with them wearing red as part of a trick on the enemy.